+Oltux72 Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 There has been speculation on how Cosmere powers can be combined to achieve FTL travel. It seems to me that there is an aspect missing. Why would they bother? They already know how to worldhop. What possible advantages could a space ship have over just transfering aircraft into the Cognitive realm or building railways there? Even if you will not learn how to exit it at will, most of the trade network is already in place. And space travel has shown itself to be quite expensive. So I am afraid the motivation for research would be simply lacking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imriel452 Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 Maybe Worldhopping is limited to a certain group- perhaps the 17th Shard and the various other organisations keep the knowledge secret for obvious reasons. FTL would be the quickest way for a group of people without magic of one kind or another to travel. Also, the main argument is- why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 Another reason. Since there's only 16 Shards there's a very limited number of Perpendicularities to choose from. Really limited real estate options. Expansion due to technology increases their options exponentially, even if only a fraction of the worlds they visit are able to support life. And they could establish a civilization not overtly dependent on the whims of a Shardic entity who one, may or may not have their best interests at heart or two, attracts other Shardic entities hell bent on destroying them. For example, if Roshar developed spaceflight I could see a host of people for whom a life without Odium gunning for them would be an attractive prospect. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) @Bigmikey357 nailed it. Threnody is a perfect example. There aren't reliably stable perps on that world. Entrance and exit to the Cognitive Realm is limited by the available of a perpendicularity, the nature and size (good luck getting a ship through the small pool outside Elantris), and the location. I don't think at most Perpendicularities you're going to be able to bring something the size of a ship through. Which would mean journey to a stable perp, crossing over to a ship that was built on that side and needs to continually be resupplied by sending things over. If you're on a planet like Sel, that's 50% larger than earth, you've got to make a journey just to reach the start of your trip. And all this is only on the starting side. Better hope there's a perp at your destination at all. Worldhopping is great. But it has its own limitations. Traditional travel has a role. Edited March 4, 2019 by Calderis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 I didn't even think of the cargo and interstellar trade applications. Good point @Calderis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSuperLee Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 We also need to consider that while the cognitive realm is great for lower technology civilizations to travel between planets, it still takes a long time to worldhop at present. The Cosmere is really a small star cluster, which means that most of the planets are going to be within several parsecs of each other. It might be faster to take a FTL spaceship from planet to planet than to traverse the cognitive realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 The Cognitive realm isn't safe or consistent. You need a special vehicle just to travel around in most of them (Spren ships on Roshar or Hoid's corps boat on Scadrial). There are even regions like Sel where you might not even be able to survive there because of the loose Investiture. There's also the fact that uninhabited worlds don't manifest in the Cognitive realm. If you want to reach an unsettled world you need to do it in the Physical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said: Since there's only 16 Shards there's a very limited number of Perpendicularities to choose from. OP didn't say anything about only using perpendicularities, though perhaps it was implied. I tend to agree with the general sentiment. If there's a way to "tunnel" in and out of the Cognitive Realm (e.g. Elsecalling), I imagine it would be faster and more efficient to get around the cosmere that way. Very reminiscent of Z-Space from Animorphs. (and plenty of other similar ideas I'm sure) If they develop "true" FTL travel (i.e., traveling through the physical realm at superluminal speeds) I would assume that's because either (1) there aren't any mechanical means to imitate Elsecalling or (2) the energy/Investiture cost isn't worth it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, Jofwu said: If they develop "true" FTL travel (i.e., traveling through the physical realm at superluminal speeds) I would assume that's because either (1) there aren't any mechanical means to imitate Elsecalling or (2) the energy/Investiture cost isn't worth it. I would go for the latter. Elaecalling is essentially creating a miniature perp for a split second. The nature of Perpendicularities drawing the realms together through density of Investiture seem like scaling that up in size is going to get exponentially more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightweaver Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 While travelling through the Cognitive realm is great for getting to known places with perpendicularities, I think FTL might be more useful for colonization of new planets. In the Cognitive realm the reason that open space can be traversed so fast is because no one lives there so there’s no one to think about it and give it form and I think uninhabited plants would be treated largely the same and might not show up very well in the cognitive realm. With FTL I think it would be easier to find planets with no settlers and colonize them, and it might even be more useful for trade with planets like Sel where going to their Cognitive realm would be dangerous. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) From what we've seen, Elsecalling is local, local in this case meaning in-system. One cannot yet blink from Roshar to Sel though it is probably possible to blink from Ashyn to Braize. The Oathgates look as though they are terminals. Terminals mean someone must build at both ends. Since it seems like Surgebinding is limited to Roshar then a different Cosmere planet will have to figure out a local method that approximately does the Transportation surge. Sel has something close I believe but it's individual only and also localized. Plus, one must consider how well those systems play with others. Will Rosharan Transportation be compatible with the Selish version? What other methods have we seen for moving between worlds other than using Perpendicularities? Lastly, involving Investiture, most places are not like Roshar where magic fuel flows like a broken tap. In most places gathering Investiture is hard. So discovering a method for Elsecalling using a different magic system, then gathering enough free Investiture to build a terminus and keep it running. I guess you're going to have to build on top of a Perpendicularity to harness the power. But if the Well of Ascension has taught us anything, it's that those Shardpools are finite resources. An interplanetary Elsecaller network is going to drain the pool much faster if it's being used for commercial and freight purposes. Both methods have their uses. I'm quite sure Worldhopping ain't going away when FTL spaceflight comes online. And if spaceflight opens up other planets for colonization we are likely to see the CR expand right alongside it. Edited March 4, 2019 by Bigmikey357 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 53 minutes ago, Calderis said: The nature of Perpendicularities drawing the realms together through density of Investiture seem like scaling that up in size is going to get exponentially more expensive. Yeah, but traveling at >100 times the speed of light can't be cheap either... Can't really make a comparison without knowing what rules Brandon wants to ground it in. I suppose part of me just likes the way that travel through the Cognitive Realm circumvents most of the physics involved while anything else, so far as I can see, is just going to laugh at physics. 32 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said: From what we've seen, Elsecalling is local, local in this case meaning in-system. One cannot yet blink from Roshar to Sel though it is probably possible to blink from Ashyn to Braize. I'm not talking about teleportation. The idea would be to Elsecall into the Cognitive Realm where distance is severely contracted, travel in your ship to some destination, and then Elsecall back to the Physical realm. This is how Jasnah uses it, and it's not dependent on having premade "portals" in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 As people have said you can really only get back to the physical realm on planets with perpendicularities and there aren't all that many reliable ones. Worldhopping via perpendicularities involves the cognitive realm which can be dangerous. There's a giant plasma storm in the cognitive realm Sel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imriel452 Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: As people have said you can really only get back to the physical realm on planets with perpendicularities and there aren't all that many reliable ones. Worldhopping via perpendicularities involves the cognitive realm which can be dangerous. There's a giant plasma storm in the cognitive realm Sel. Where is confirmation of a plasma storm in the cognitive realm for Sel? Did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lidolas Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 43 minutes ago, imriel452 said: Where is confirmation of a plasma storm in the cognitive realm for Sel? Did I miss something? This WoB (there are others but this was the first I found) Quote sufficientlyadvanced It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why? Brandon Sanderson It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Phantine Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though. Brandon Sanderson Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless... Windrunner If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered? Brandon Sanderson No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous. It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial. eneral Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 9 hours ago, Oltux72 said: There has been speculation on how Cosmere powers can be combined to achieve FTL travel. It seems to me that there is an aspect missing. Why would they bother? They already know how to worldhop. What possible advantages could a space ship have over just transfering aircraft into the Cognitive realm or building railways there? Even if you will not learn how to exit it at will, most of the trade network is already in place. And space travel has shown itself to be quite expensive. So I am afraid the motivation for research would be simply lacking. I take offense at speculation. If I’m wrong about the Alcubierre drive, I will actually eat my hat. You can quote me on that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 49 minutes ago, Steeldancer said: If I’m wrong about the Alcubierre drive, I will actually eat my hat. You can quote me on that. @Overlord Jebus you're in good company! But honestly, Alcubierre seems like the best bet. Are there any other FTL options besides that and wormholes which aren't just outright contradiction of physics? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted March 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 10 hours ago, imriel452 said: Maybe Worldhopping is limited to a certain group- perhaps the 17th Shard and the various other organisations keep the knowledge secret for obvious reasons. How would you do that if multiple Elsecallers around? 10 hours ago, imriel452 said: Also, the main argument is- why not? Cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasper Posted March 4, 2019 Report Share Posted March 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Steeldancer said: I take offense at speculation. If I’m wrong about the Alcubierre drive, I will actually eat my hat. You can quote me on that. Given that external temporal allomancy is really just stretching and contracting spacetime, I think that you will avoid having to eat your hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripheus23 Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 It could also be that in the distant future, ANY travel, almost anywhere in the Cognitive Realm, might be superdangerous, comparatively. Kinda like how they didn't always use the Ways in WOT due to Machin Shin (or the dream-realm, or w/e). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) On 3/4/2019 at 0:53 PM, Jofwu said: Are there any other FTL options besides that and wormholes which aren't just outright contradiction of physics? We're literally talking about magic. Other possible options could include Aons for motion or multiple gravity lashings. Edited March 10, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jofwu Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 5 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: We're literally talking about magic. Other possible options could include Aons for motion or multiple gravity lashings. Yes, but we're also talking about an author who considers the implications of magical time bubbles blue-shifting visible light into x-rays. Brandon breaks the rules of physics left and right, but he usually tends to do it in ways that make a certain kind of sense. I think Brandon is much more likely to bend or bypass the rules of Relatively than he is to just outright ignore them. There's several ways to do FTL without saying, "Who's Einstein? Just go faster." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) Some places might not exist in the cognitive realm and so it would be hard to get their by conventional worldhopping. Edited March 11, 2019 by Karger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/4/2019 at 11:02 AM, Steeldancer said: If I’m wrong about the Alcubierre drive, I will actually eat my hat. You can quote me on that. If I'm understanding the idea behind an Alcubierre drive, I would tend to agree with you, but not really to "eating my own hat" levels, because I lost faith in my ability to predict the Sanderson Twist (tm) a long time ago (relatively ). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 There's a potential faster way to cruise the Cosmere if they can get it figured out. Travel through the Spiritual Realm in an improbability drive ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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