Silva

Tapping and Storing and Sleeping

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I did look at some older topics on this, but as there never was any real evidence one way or another, I figured it okay to bring up again.

It's pretty clear from both Sazed's and Wayne's experiences that you can't store.

But can you tap a metalmind while sleeping?

It seems like tapping while asleep would be the only way to explain TLR living so long (unless he somehow was compounding bronze the whole time to remain awake). The case could be like with burning metals instinctively, or it might not. In most cases it wouldn't even be useful (why would you need Identity, Connection, Wakefulness, or Determination while asleep?), only the few like age, warmth, health, weight (on occassion), or even breath.

I feel like the answer is yes, but with no proof other than TLR's existence there's no way to say for certain.

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I am pretty sure you can't as we see no one do it ever in all of the books despite several ocations where it would be usefull.  Also how do you maintain intent while sleeping.  You may if you are good learn to sort of meditate  while storing but otherwise no.

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Posted (edited)

I didn’t think the Lord Ruler tapped his Atium metalminds to get his youth, I thought it was from burning the metalminds that he became young, storing whatever excess their might be within Atium minds for future burning. Or maybe he only stores when he’s old in his little cabin.

if he is burning the metal as opposed to tapping it, then we know that allomancers can do that instinctively while they are asleep or unconscious, we’ve seen that with at least Pewter and I think tin with Spook.

Also feruchemists do store wakefulness while sleeping, and from what Sazed says it seems like the amount stored is based on your Intent before you fall asleep. Maybe with enough practice you could do something similar with other metals

Edited by King's Twit
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1 hour ago, King's Twit said:

I didn’t think the Lord Ruler tapped his Atium metalminds to get his youth, I thought it was from burning the metalminds that he became young, storing whatever excess their might be within Atium minds for future burning. Or maybe he only stores when he’s old in his little cabin.

if he is burning the metal as opposed to tapping it, then we know that allomancers can do that instinctively while they are asleep or unconscious, we’ve seen that with at least Pewter and I think tin with Spook.

Is not really all that useful to be constantly burning when it comes to compounding. You could argue that with the TLR he needed so much age at once that burning was efficient, but otherwise, compounding gives you so much a burst that you end up having too much of the resource to use efficiently. Thus, the storing a compounded trait in a metalmind so that you can draw the resource in a controlled manner.

Okay, back to the original topic. I've figured you probably can tap while sleeping, it just takes practice. My evidence for this is how Wayne stores health. I believe he says he prefers to spend a week drunk and sick so he can just sleep through it instead of feeling a little sick all the time.

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3 hours ago, King's Twit said:

I didn’t think the Lord Ruler tapped his Atium metalminds to get his youth, I thought it was from burning the metalminds that he became young, storing whatever excess their might be within Atium minds for future burning. Or maybe he only stores when he’s old in his little cabin.

if he is burning the metal as opposed to tapping it, then we know that allomancers can do that instinctively while they are asleep or unconscious, we’ve seen that with at least Pewter and I think tin with Spook.

Also feruchemists do store wakefulness while sleeping, and from what Sazed says it seems like the amount stored is based on your Intent before you fall asleep. Maybe with enough practice you could do something similar with other metals

He did tap his atium minds to get youth. The most efficient way to compound is to store some in the metalmind, burn it for a huge amount of that attribute, and store the excess in a second metalmind that you slowly tap as needed.

Agreed on the storing and tapping while sleeping. We know they can store wakefulness and burn while sleeping, so it makes sense that they can tap while sleeping.

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According to Sazed, Brinze is the only feruchemical power that can be used while sleeping... And that is more an effect of storing than just a happy coincidence. 

Quote

He should probably be lying down—but if he did that, he was liable to sleep. And, while sleeping, he couldn't fill metalminds—or, at least, he could fill only one. A bronzemind, the metal that stored wakefulness, would force him to sleep longer in exchange for letting him go longer without sleep on another occasion.

Yes, he only mentions storing... But if you can't store into atium while sleeping that presents a big issue for a potential weakness. 

And the nature of Feruchemy requires a person to choose, consciously, how strongly they draw upon a metalmind. 

3 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Okay, back to the original topic. I've figured you probably can tap while sleeping, it just takes practice. My evidence for this is how Wayne stores health. I believe he says he prefers to spend a week drunk and sick so he can just sleep through it instead of feeling a little sick all the time.

Wayne says he spends the time sick, in bed. He says nothing of sleep. I think he just stores to the point that waking around isn't worth the effort. 

All in all, I don't think Feruchemy lends itself to unconscious use. 

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6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Wayne says he spends the time sick, in bed. He says nothing of sleep. I think he just stores to the point that waking around isn't worth the effort. 

All in all, I don't think Feruchemy lends itself to unconscious use. 

But then you could kill a gold feruchemist just by hitting him on the head hard enough to render him unconcious. It seems to me that you cannot start tapping while unconcious. But the process, once initiated, will continue.

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4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But then you could kill a gold feruchemist just by hitting him on the head hard enough to render him unconcious. It seems to me that you cannot start tapping while unconcious. But the process, once initiated, will continue.

If they were actively healing, you couldn't knock them unconscious in the first place. 

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12 hours ago, Calderis said:

According to Sazed, Brinze is the only feruchemical power that can be used while sleeping... And that is more an effect of storing than just a happy coincidence. 

Yes, he only mentions storing... But if you can't store into atium while sleeping that presents a big issue for a potential weakness. 

And the nature of Feruchemy requires a person to choose, consciously, how strongly they draw upon a metalmind. 

Wayne says he spends the time sick, in bed. He says nothing of sleep. I think he just stores to the point that waking around isn't worth the effort. 

All in all, I don't think Feruchemy lends itself to unconscious use. 

Sazed does say that, but think of all the times in Era 1 that people were wrong about how Allomancy worked, as well as Sazed’s comments about how little the Feruchemists knew about the uses of some of the metals. My point was that they might have been wrong about storing/tapping while sleeping as well, possibly because it is really difficult to do.

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The reason I don't think that this is true is the way that Feruchemy functions. It's not like allomancy where you burn or you don't, and you can decide to flare... and the only way you can better fine tune it is through Savantism (which Feruchemy doesn't have). Feruchemy is a conscious choice to not only tap, but the rate at which you do so. 

Because of discussion of the medallions, I've gone off about this at length before. Save the Nicrosil portion of the medallions, there is not one time in any book that we see the PoV of a Feruchemist using their power where tapping a metalmind is not explicitly acknowledged in the text. It's one of the primary reasons I argue that the Nicrosil in the medallions is not standard Feruchemy.

Obviously I could be wrong on all counts here, but as I said, the nature of Feruchemy does not lend itself to unconscious use in my mind at all. 

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Now that I think on it, TLR probably didn't sleep, since he could compound wakefulness.

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Spoiler

Wax taps the BoM while dead (by most definitions of the word at least, the caveat being that his soul hadn't transitioned to the Beyond yet), which I would argue is pretty much as unconscious as one can be.

If feruchemists cant tap heat or breath while sleeping that's a huge weakness that should've been mentioned before now...

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