What KR Order Would Kelsier Be?

[What's a Seawolf?]

My opinion on Kel seems to be different from what's been mentioned here, but I think without a doubt Stoneward or Windrunner.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Then explain! Debating is fun!

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Shard of Thought said:

Can we just talk for a moment about how OP Kelsier would be as a Radiant?

Would he really be that more powerful than an Elantrian with a full library of Aons on his persons and enchanted weapons?

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

So, I think the problem that we've been running into with Kelsier is that we're only looking at one part of his aspects at a time. Kelsier is

 

- Power hungry

- Not entirely mentally stable

- A bit of a show off

- A careful planner

- Extremely ruthless, but not always

- Passionate

- Powerful

- A leader

- A helper

- A conman

- A rule-breaker

- Someone who truly cares about the downtrodden

- Headstrong and stubborn

- Full of himself

- Durable

- A non-conformist

 

And probably a lot more that we could come up with. So we've got our list. Now, what's most important to him? What does he stand for? What does he want? The other thing I think we need to consider is what the Oaths are for and what they mean to accomplish. Not only which Order fits best with Kelsier's personality, but which Order is going to best accommodate his issues.

[Karger]

Chanarach the patron of the Dustbringers is associated with the divine attributes brave and obedient.  One of these definitely defines Kel one does not however the one Dustbringer we do know Malata is, although not respectful, obedient to a person and cause that she respects.  As the leader of a cause Kel was never confronted with an obvious superior so we don't know how he would react to someone who clearly demonstrates worthiness of the position (obviously the Lord Ruler did not deserve obedience).  On the other hand I have a hard time believing that Kel's work with the southerners was accomplished without Harmony's acceptance if not approval which does indicate that they have some kind of working relationship so we can assume that he does accept and respect Harmony implying that Kel does actually respect him and would likely agree to work in a subordinate position to him if he was onboard with the cause.  So yes Kel could be a respectable Dustbringer.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Actually, he does meet an obvious superior. Preservation. He feels uncomfortable in those situations. I've always thought that was why he called Preservation "Fuzz." He was trying to make things familiar. Refusing to acknowledge truth. He was lying. 

Edit: And as for Harmony, Kelsier has been friends with him for a while. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Shard of Thought

[Jace21]

7 hours ago, Shard of Thought said:

Actually, he does meet an obvious superior. Preservation. He feels uncomfortable in those situations. I've always thought that was why he called Preservation "Fuzz." He was trying to make things familiar. Refusing to acknowledge truth. He was lying. 

Edit: And as for Harmony, Kelsier has been friends with him for a while. 

Just having told or telling lies is not enough to be a Lightweaver. They seem to need to be profound lies you tell to yourself about yourself, with the telling of Truths being a path to self-awareness. 

I realise it's all interpretation, but I feel like Kel is too self-aware to be a Lightweaver.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Just now, Jace21 said:

Just having told or telling lies is not enough to be a Lightweaver. They seem to need to be profound lies you tell to yourself about yourself, with the telling of Truths being a path to self-awareness. 

I realise it's all interpretation, but I feel like Kel is too self-aware to be a Lightweaver.

That's a fair argument.

[beantheboy12]

WHO THE STORMING HECK VOTED SKYBREAKER???

[Iadn]

On 3/1/2019 at 8:34 PM, beantheboy12 said:

WHO THE STORMING HECK VOTED SKYBREAKER???

I did.  Kel follows his internal code with very few deviations and has ZERO issue killing people who run afoul of those ideals.  Sounds a lot like a skybreaker to me.  Oh and he can fly and destroy the #$%^ out of things.  Also skybreaker!

[Karger]

43 minutes ago, Iadn said:

I did.  Kel follows his internal code with very few deviations and has ZERO issue killing people who run afoul of those ideals.  Sounds a lot like a skybreaker to me.  Oh and he can fly and destroy the #$%^ out of things.  Also skybreaker!

I think that is a baseless argument.  Kel does not have anything reassembling a code he lies, dissembles, and murders in pursuit of a goal not in an attempt to maintain order or justice.  Every order could kill under the right circumstances and we are talking about his personality not his powers.

[Iadn]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think that is a baseless argument.  Kel does not have anything reassembling a code he lies, dissembles, and murders in pursuit of a goal not in an attempt to maintain order or justice.  Every order could kill under the right circumstances and we are talking about his personality not his powers.

I apparently read Kel very differently from you.  His driving goal is to rid the Final Empire of TLR and as many nobles as possible and set up a Skaa government.  Alternatively he is revenge personified on TLR for the events surrounding Mare and the Pits.

Below is a copy/past from the Coppermind on the 4th Ideal for a Skybreaker.

Quote

This Ideal is also called the Ideal of Crusade, and requires that a Skybreaker undertake a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of their highspren.

As laid out above, this is my take on what he is doing.

Then we have the following note on the 5th Ideal for a Skybreaker.

Quote

There is a disagreement among the order on whether this means that the Skybreaker swearing this oath can do anything, as they are an embodiment of the law, or if they need to not break any law to keep their oaths.

If we read that as Kel can use any method he chooses in his embodiment of law and truth (which must be a valid reading of the Ideal since there is a faction within the Skybreakers who reads it this way), then combined with the 4th Ideal information, we have exactly what I see in Kel.  He's an incredibly focused/driven individual who was initially aimed solely at removing TLR and the nobles from power and setting up a Skaa government.  

Now, if you'd like to offer something that contradicts anything I've stated above I'd love to read it.  The fact that many different people read Mr. Sanderson's work very differently is one of my favorite things about his writing.

Side note, the original question was "What KR Order Would Kelsier Be?"  I fail to read ANYTHING in there that says we are talking about his personality not his powers.  So uh, with all due respect, it kinda seems like your argument is the baseless one.  I realize it is the internet and all, but Storms, there is no need to throw insults around, especially on that unsound footing.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Iadn said:

I apparently read Kel very differently from you.  His driving goal is to rid the Final Empire of TLR and as many nobles as possible and set up a Skaa government.  Alternatively he is revenge personified on TLR for the events surrounding Mare and the Pits.

Below is a copy/past from the Coppermind on the 4th Ideal for a Skybreaker.

As laid out above, this is my take on what he is doing.

Then we have the following note on the 5th Ideal for a Skybreaker.

If we read that as Kel can use any method he chooses in his embodiment of law and truth (which must be a valid reading of the Ideal since there is a faction within the Skybreakers who reads it this way), then combined with the 4th Ideal information, we have exactly what I see in Kel.  He's an incredibly focused/driven individual who was initially aimed solely at removing TLR and the nobles from power and setting up a Skaa government.  

Now, if you'd like to offer something that contradicts anything I've stated above I'd love to read it.  The fact that many different people read Mr. Sanderson's work very differently is one of my favorite things about his writing.

Side note, the original question was "What KR Order Would Kelsier Be?"  I fail to read ANYTHING in there that says we are talking about his personality not his powers.  So uh, with all due respect, it kinda seems like your argument is the baseless one.  I realize it is the internet and all, but Storms, there is no need to throw insults around, especially on that unsound footing.

I did not mean to be insulting only to state my opinion.  In my understanding Skybreakers do not kill out of revenge but out of a desire to maintain order and they must follow the precepts of society while doing so.  I think a good example of a Skybreaker who fights in an unconventional way is batman.  Batman has a clear personal code(when portrayed correctly) and he fights to maintain societal order for the good of his city.  He does not kill those who threaten his city and when he does he makes sure that his motives are not personal but in service of the public good.  Also Nale himself calls the path of the Skybreaker "uncorrupted by sentiment" if I remember correctly which describes the opposite of Kel.  Szeth oath to cleans his homeland may seem to contradict this but I think to complete it to his spren's satisfaction he must learn to do so without hating those he judges.

[Iadn]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

I did not mean to be insulting only to state my opinion.  In my understanding Skybreakers do not kill out of revenge but out of a desire to maintain order and they must follow the precepts of society while doing so.  I think a good example of a Skybreaker who fights in an unconventional way is batman.  Batman has a clear personal code(when portrayed correctly) and he fights to maintain societal order for the good of his city.  He does not kill those who threaten his city and when he does he makes sure that his motives are not personal but in service of the public good.  Also Nale himself calls the path of the Skybreaker "uncorrupted by sentiment" if I remember correctly which describes the opposite of Kel.  Szeth oath to cleans his homeland may seem to contradict this but I think to complete it to his spren's satisfaction he must learn to do so without hating those he judges.

I figured as much, I appreciate your clarification.  That isn't how I see Kel or the Skybreakers, but I can 100% see that as a way they could be read.

[Karger]

I hate to digress but how do you see the Skybreakers?

[Iadn]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

I hate to digress but how do you see the Skybreakers?

As a whole, much like you described above.  Those on the 4th and 5th Ideal though I read as much less about order and more about their cause.

[Bigmikey357]

As I read these comments I've come down to two routes Kelsier could go based off one event. Lightweaver or an Odium Knight based on the events that led him to eventually Snap, the Mare incident. His struggle with that would produce some of his most powerful lies; a Cryptic would definitely be drawn to him in my opinion. The pain of that possible betrayal lands him on Odium's watchlist. And Kel as Odium's Champion should scare any Cosmere aware person. Point in the Lightweaver column, that smile. He hides everything behind that smile. Point to Odium, the hatred towards all nobility. 

 

[Lidolas]

Order - Attributes - Thoughts

Windrunner - Protecting/Leading - Kel fits both of these attributes very well.  He is a natural-born leader and is driven, in part, to protect the skaa. (More driven by vengeance and other motives though)

Skybreakers - Just/Confident - Kel is incredibly confident.  I'm not so sure about Just.  He is able to convince people that he is, but he seems inconsistent in his applicaiton of justice.

Dustbringer - Brave/Obedient - He is very brave, one of the bravest characters in the Cosmere.  Going toe to toe with TLR knowing he would die.  Obedient....not so much.  We don't have much insight how obedience plays into a dustbringer's selection or nahel bond, but it's hard to picture Kel obeying anyone without it being a con.  Note, power's wise, this is arguably the best to fit his personality.

Edgedancer - Loving/Healing - Kel could love, but it seemed very limited, especially after Mare died.  And he never seemed interested in healing.

Truthwatcher - Learned/Giving - Kel was great at studying what he wanted to.  He did a lot of research to learn about the 11th metal.  But he isn't really the giving type, at least without expecting something in return.

Lightweaver - Creative/Honest - He is very creative.  He can see how things work and how to use them.  He does struggle with honesty, but our main lightweaver also struggles, maybe even more than Kel would.  This seems a good choice, based on the key attributes and the example we have in SA.

Elsecaller - Wise/Careful - Kel is clever, smart, and knowledgeable, but I'm not sure if wise would be a good description of him.  He doesn't seem the kind of guy I'd approach for advice.  And careful........in a way, he could be considered careful.  He is a great planner and takes great care in his plans.  But he can also be very reckless.

Willshaper - Resolute/Builder - Resolute is a good description of Kel.  He is determined and unwavering in his planning, relationships, and actions.  He is not a great builder, and he realizes this.  That's why Dox and others were in his crew.

Stoneward - Dependable/Resourceful - Kel is very loyal to his crew and to those who depend on him.  And he is incredibly resourceful.  I think there is a strong argument that based on attributes, Kel would attact the spren (we don't have a name or type yet for Stonewards spren, do we?) for this order.

Bondsmith - Pious/Guiding - I first laughed out loud thinking of Kel as pious.  But then I thought, how can a man be more devoutly religious than becoming a god?  hmmm....As for guiding, Kel was a great teacher to Vin, but it seemed he didn't spend much time with the rest of the crew.  Maybe he did more of it as the Sovereign.  This has a high likelihood than some other orders, but it's hard for me to imagine.

So, based on this, I'd think the likely order would be Stoneward, Lightweaver, Windrunner, Dustbringer, Skybreaker, Bondsmith, Willshaper, Truthwatcher, Elsecaller, Edgedancer.

[Jace21]

9 hours ago, Lidolas said:

Order - Attributes - Thoughts

Windrunner - Protecting/Leading - Kel fits both of these attributes very well.  He is a natural-born leader and is driven, in part, to protect the skaa. (More driven by vengeance and other motives though)

I agree with most of what you've said, an excellent summary!

My main disagreement is here with Windrunners. Not in a million years do I see Kel swearing the 3rd Oath. But that's just my view.

I also think the "builder" attribute of Willshapers isn't a negative. Knowing his weaknesses and surrounding himself with people, like Dockson, who offset those works for me. He "built" his crew.