What KR Order Would Kelsier Be?

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

So, I was thinking about Kelsier and I was curious what Knight Radiant Order you guys think he'd best fit into. My money is on Lightweaver. He's a conman; lying is his thing. Plus, he mentions in SH that he's good at lying to himself. It'd be interesting to see what Truths he'd swear. 

[RShara]

He doesn't really lie to himself, though. I'd call him an Edgedancer for remembering the forgotten, or a Dustbringer, for liking to break things.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Remembering the forgotten? How so?

[RShara]

The skaa are pretty much all forgotten, neglected, ignored, trampled down, etc.

[HSuperLee]

Oh. Wow that's a hard question. 

I'm going to have to go through this systematically.

Windrunner: Not protective of all equally.

Skybreaker: He doesn't like rules.

Dustbringer: Maybe. Don't know enough about them to be sure.

Edgedancer: Kell don't care.

Truthwatcher: Not sure what their ideals are.

Lightweaver: Probably. He'd like the magic, they'd like the lies.

Elsecaller: Promising. He does like a logical plan.

Willshaper: Same as Truthwatcher.

Stoneward: Same as Truthwatcher and Willshaper.

Bondsmith: Kell doesn't care about oaths or unity.

So, I'd go with most likely lightweaver, maybe elsecaller.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

1 minute ago, RShara said:

The skaa are pretty much all forgotten, neglected, ignored, trampled down, etc.

Alright, I can see that I suppose. That's certainly important to him. However, the oaths are supposed to be about self-improvement, right? It seems like he has bigger issues that another Order's oaths could help him with rather than just "remembering people." I feel like he's too full of himself for that Order.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Given that he became a God to his people, I would say Bondsmith. If I'm going purely by the "feel" of his character in terms of powers, I'd probably go with Skybreaker or Dustbringer. Breaking things goes without saying, and Gravity or Adhesion would make him an even more deadly fighter. The order that would be most useful to him would probably be Elsecaller though. Instant access to the CR and soulcasting are to good to pass up.

Now if only there were a sexy and single Elsecaller out there with a proclivity for late night murder in dark alleys for him to hook up with.

Edited March 1, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[+Invocation]

Dustbringer because of his tendency to break things.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Given that he became a God to his people, I would say Bondsmith. If I'm going purely by the "feel" of his character in terms of powers, I'd probably go with Skybreaker or Dustbringer. Breaking things goes without saying, and Gravity or Adhesion would make him an even more deadly fighter.

But one could argue that that was a lie too. He's not a god and he wasn't very comfortable with being one for the skaa. What he ultimately wanted was revenge. Sure, he cared for the skaa and he did so honestly, but it's really all for Mare. Where this gets dicey is when you start talking about the Southerners. We don't really know enough about his motives to judge that fairly. Why did he want to help them? I suppose I can see him has a Bondsmithy type. He's definitely a leader. I have to continue with Lightweaver though. As much as I can see the thing with the Southerners being about unity and helping others, I can also see it as some sort of lie to... I don't know, convince himself of something. Prove something to himself. 

[+Invocation]

6 minutes ago, Shard of Thought said:

I can also see it as some sort of lie to... I don't know, convince himself of something. Prove something to himself. 

I honestly only think he did so he could have as many powers as possible.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

8 minutes ago, Shard of Thought said:

But one could argue that that was a lie too. He's not a god and he wasn't very comfortable with being one for the skaa. What he ultimately wanted was revenge. Sure, he cared for the skaa and he did so honestly, but it's really all for Mare. Where this gets dicey is when you start talking about the Southerners. We don't really know enough about his motives to judge that fairly. Why did he want to help them? I suppose I can see him has a Bondsmithy type. He's definitely a leader. I have to continue with Lightweaver though. As much as I can see the thing with the Southerners being about unity and helping others, I can also see it as some sort of lie to... I don't know, convince himself of something. Prove something to himself. 

Well the Divine Attributes of the Bondsmiths are pious and guiding. He literally founded a religion, so we can check pious off the list. As for guiding, he saved the Southerners and taught them all kinds of stuff about the Metallic Arts. He also left behind artifacts to teach his various followers what they need to know to save themselves later on. I don't know enough about the Sibling to say whether it would bond Kel, but I think the Nightwatcher might consider it. If we are looking at it from a "UNITE THEM" standpoint, he did leave behind two continent spanning nations that both seem to regard him with religious/secular importance.

Edit: One last point. Ishar, who is patron of the Bondsmiths, was called the Binder of Gods. I think Kel put the Lord Ruler in a pretty serious bind

Edited March 1, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Just now, Invocation said:

I honestly only think he did so he could have as many powers as possible.

Have you read The 11th Metal? There has to be more than that. Kelsier really finds something when he helps people.

1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Well the Divine Attributes of the Bondsmiths are pious and guiding. He literally founded a religion, so we can check pious off the list. As for guiding, he saved the Southerners and taught them all kinds of stuff about the Metallic Arts. He also left behind artifacts to teach his various followers what they need to know to save themselves later on. I don't know enough about the Sibling to say whether it would bond Kel, but I think the Nightwatcher might consider it. If we are looking at it from a "UNITE THEM" standpoint, he did leave behind two continent spanning nations that both seem to regard him with religious/secular importance.

But what Bondsmith would kill people the way Kelsier does? "But Dalinar-" I hear you screaming. Yes. That's true enough. But Dalinar showed intense remorse for killing those people. Where's that in Kell?

[SwordNimiForPresident]

5 minutes ago, Shard of Thought said:

But what Bondsmith would kill people the way Kelsier does? "But Dalinar-" I hear you screaming. Yes. That's true enough. But Dalinar showed intense remorse for killing those people. Where's that in Kell?

You don't have to be remorseful, you simply need to pick yourself up, and do better. The most important step is the next.

Edit: I also think that Kel would dislike all Lightweavers on principal, because Hoid is one.

Edited March 1, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[+Invocation]

2 minutes ago, Shard of Thought said:

Have you read The 11th Metal? There has to be more than that. Kelsier really finds something when he helps people.

6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Yeah, and I'd be willing to bet his whole thing is that "I can help more people, I just have to get more powers." He doesn't want his influence to die because he sees that as helping the people and is riding the high from it (and has been for a few hundred years now) while still servicing his own greed. The man is either a sociopath or a psychopath (there's some gray area there) and is making his own justification as he goes.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Invocation

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

You don't have to be remorseful, you simply need to pick yourself up, and do better. The most important step is the next.

Hmm... Considering what Surviving really means to him and Preservation's whole "Do better" speech, I can totally see that. However, one could also interpret that as him being a Windrunner. Consider how he acts when people he loves are killed. Kaladin's "I will protect even those I hate" oath was hard for him to learn. I can see Kelsier having a hard time with that as well, but I'm certain he could find it in himself to do it. 

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Yeah, and I'd be willing to bet his whole thing is that "I can help more people, I just have to get more powers." He doesn't want his influence to die because he sees that as helping the people and is riding the high from it (and has been for a few hundred years now) while still servicing his own greed. The man is either a sociopath or a psychopath (there's some gray area there) and is making his own justification as he goes.

As I've said. Lies. That's what that justification is. 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Shard of Thought said:

As I've said. Lies. That's what that justification is. 

Yes, but I don't think he has enough to justify Lightweaver Truths. 

That being said, if I had to choose a second most-likely one, it would probably be Lightweaver because none of the others besides those two seem to fit.

[beantheboy12]

We have reason to believe that the second oath of the stonewards is “I will stand while others fall.” Kelsier defied the final empire while skis submitted. He’s the storming survivor of death. He started a rebellion. He stands while others fall.

SH spoilers:

Spoiler

He was the only one to remain alive after death.

 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

I've decided to take the same cop out that I used in the Sorting Hat thread, someone needs to ask Brandon this.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Just now, Invocation said:

Yes, but I don't think he has enough to justify Lightweaver Truths. 

That being said, if I had to choose a second most-likely one, it would probably be Lightweaver because none of the others besides those two seem to fit.

But how much do we really know about Kelsier? Honestly. Consider this. Even reading from Shallan's PoV, we didn't truly understand how broken she really was until we got her flashbacks. There's a lot Kelsier could be hiding, and a lot of reason to hide behind masks. Allow me to direct you once again to SH. "Each had reacted differently to an entire life spent, essentially, with a death sentence: Marsh with quiet tension and caution, Kelsier with aggressive self-confidence to mask his secrets." Secrets, huh? I think there's more to this than we can see.

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Shard of Thought said:

But how much do we really know about Kelsier? Honestly. Consider this. Even reading from Shallan's PoV, we didn't truly understand how broken she really was until we got her flashbacks. There's a lot Kelsier could be hiding, and a lot of reason to hide behind masks. Allow me to direct you once again to SH. "Each had reacted differently to an entire life spent, essentially, with a death sentence: Marsh with quiet tension and caution, Kelsier with aggressive self-confidence to mask his secrets." Secrets, huh? I think there's more to this than we can see.

Yes, there probably is (his saying is evidence enough of that), but most of that would probably relate to the secrets of who he really is in his scams. He plays it aggressive to keep people from questioning his parenthood and ratting him out to the Inquisitors.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Yes, there probably is (his saying is evidence enough of that), but most of that would probably relate to the secrets of who he really is in his scams. He plays it aggressive to keep people from questioning his parenthood and ratting him out to the Inquisitors.

True enough, of course, but what about in TFE? How confident is he in his plans? He's more worried than he shows. A lot more human than he allows others to see. We see that much in SH. That alone would be pretty good grounds for attracting a Cryptic, I would think.

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Shard of Thought said:

True enough, of course, but what about in TFE? How confident is he in his plans? He's more worried than he shows. A lot more human than he allows others to see. We see that much in SH. That alone would be pretty good grounds for attracting a Cryptic, I would think.

Maybe, maybe not, because with the way the Cryptics are acting towards the bond (very wary about contributing too much of their population), a person like Kell would not be a good bond. Suitable or not, they wouldn't risk a member of their (extremely limited) population bonding to someone that's that power-hungry (even if it is for good reasons).

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

Just now, Invocation said:

Maybe, maybe not, because with the way the Cryptics are acting towards the bond (very wary about contributing too much of their population), a person like Kell would not be a good bond. Suitable or not, they wouldn't risk a member of their (extremely limited) population bonding to someone that's that power-hungry (even if it is for good reasons).

So, I think part of the problem with putting Kelsier into a KR group is that Brandon didn't write him to be put into one. The fact is, he's not on Roshar. And honestly, if I'm right and Kelsier is hiding as much as I think, then I'm pretty certain his "power-hungry" nature is just another lie. That aggresive confidence he was talking about. The Cryptic would know that. You get him to swear those Truths and all of a sudden he's much easier to work with.

[+Invocation]

2 minutes ago, Shard of Thought said:

So, I think part of the problem with putting Kelsier into a KR group is that Brandon didn't write him to be put into one. The fact is, he's not on Roshar. And honestly, if I'm right and Kelsier is hiding as much as I think, then I'm pretty certain his "power-hungry" nature is just another lie. That aggresive confidence he was talking about. The Cryptic would know that. You get him to swear those Truths and all of a sudden he's much easier to work with.

Eh, yeah, that's fair. Both parts of it. 

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

There is that thing about him having bad handwriting though which doesn't bode well if he's gonna be drawing. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Shard of Thought