Why no-one can take up Honour ... but ten people - and their spren - can

[CrazyRioter Returned]

There's a theory that Sja-anat will end up as a fourth Bondsmith spren, though I don't know who she'd bond with currently.

[Ixthos Midnight Essence]

@Bigmikey357 Sort of, but not exactly - I think that the shard will become fully intact again, but put together slightly differently, and possibly having parts of other shards added to it, basically a bit like what Wit said about gibberish. If the original form of Honour was like a gem with ten facets, with Tanavaste at the centre of this gem, then Honour was shattered so that each facet has deep cracks and is seperated from the others, but still in the same relative position. If this is the case, then the new form of Honour would again be a gem with ten faces, each more or less the same faces as before, but each face holds its own vessel, each equally having the right to be called Honour, each equally a part of Honour, but none of them the totality of Honour, though all can use the full power of the shard unless the others claim it. Or perhaps each only having direct access to a tenth of its power, but still being fully part of the power of the others, just as every muscle in your body is a part of you, but your heart or intestinal muscles are not under your control. They wouldn't be "shardlettes", as those are - to my mind - what splinters are, while Avatars as used in Brandon's terms would probably be more like someone with multiple personalities, or classic depictions of creatures with two or more heads. Maybe we are thinking of the same thing slightly differently.

 

With that in mind, I think the answer to your first question is basically that they are still connected to a full shard, just not the only ones connected to it (though I do think elsewhere there are other shards which have been split in two, each shard only half of the shard it was before and distinct from one another, with distinct vessels, but that is another topic, and relates to how much the definition of a shard is based on the idea power and how much a shard is based on the idea of an idea). The second would then tie to that in the sense I don't know if they could or couldn't leave one another, but I don't think that would change whether or not they are fully shards or only part of a shard, as no matter how far away they move they likely will remain equally connected in the spiritual realm before and after leaving. I think that shards are based more on the idea they represent than on the power, and while shards can be added together and still be shards, I think there is a distinct upper limit on how finely an idea can be broken into small ideas before they stop retaining the same abilities a more intact shard would retain, and no longer are considered shards. Either way, I think the Bondsmith-Honour (which is still equally a part of Honour and the other Order-Honours as ones left hand is to ones foot) would still strive to keep them united and in the same area.

 

... Except for Willshaper-Honour. That one would try to leave before being fully intact :-P

[LerasiumMistborn Prelan]

Why so many people think  Honor WILL be "healed"? This is a very popular theory...but why?

Anyway, if it were to happen, I think Kaladin will do it. Somewhere around the end of book 10. Maybe 5, but that's less likely. So, probably during grand final of book 10.

[ZenBossanova King's Wit]

As I think about it, this Honour held by Radiant committee idea makes Odium's comment make more sense - the comment he said about Dalinar Ascending. 

 

[Jace21 Misting]

4 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Why so many people think  Honor WILL be "healed"? This is a very popular theory...but why?

Anyway, if it were to happen, I think Kaladin will do it. Somewhere around the end of book 10. Maybe 5, but that's less likely. So, probably during grand final of book 10.

Because we know it could happen, it would make sense narratively and we have seen what look like the beginnings of it already with Dalinar.

Doesn't mean it will happen, but certainly explains why people think it might.

As for Kaladin doing it, I personally doubt it. He is too narrow-minded and has shown no signs of becoming anything more than an excellent Windrunner.

[Calderis God Beyond]

4 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Why so many people think  Honor WILL be "healed"? This is a very popular theory...but why?

Because you can't Ascend to a splintered Shard. That's the entire reason that Odium is splintering them in the first place. 

The fact that Dalinar "Ascended" according to Odium means that, at least in part, it's already started. 

[LerasiumMistborn Prelan]

8 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Because we know it could happen, it would make sense narratively and we have seen what look like the beginnings of it already with Dalinar.

Doesn't mean it will happen, but certainly explains why people think it might.

As for Kaladin doing it, I personally doubt it. He is too narrow-minded and has shown no signs of becoming anything more than an excellent Windrunner.

It could? I thought whether or not splintered Shard can be healed is a rafo. Dalinar can't do it

While I can agree it makes a lot of sense narrative-wise...for me, there're already SO many things that doesn't make any sense in those books narrative-wise, it makes me very, very skeptical.

If I'm right, and Kaladin will be a prominent character until book 10, it may change. Seven more books is a lot to gain more and more power. He may take the Stormfather after Dalinar's death and become a Bondsmith.

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because you can't Ascend to a splintered Shard. That's the entire reason that Odium is splintering them in the first place. 

The fact that Dalinar "Ascended" according to Odium means that, at least in part, it's already started. 

Is it possible to Ascend to a part of splintered Shard? To it's...splinter? I mean, if Dalinar Ascended (in the end of OB) he would become a full Shard. But Honor is still broken. Nothing changed.

[Scion of the Mists Forger]

6 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

It could? I thought whether or not splintered Shard can be healed is a rafo. Dalinar can't do it

That is not what that WoB says.  This is the full text:

Quote

RayW2

Can Dalinar hypothetically repair Honor's Shard or this is beyond his powers?

Brandon Sanderson

This would not be within the scope of his powers, traditionally. (Though I should note that what it even means to 'repair Honor's Shard' is subject to debate.)

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

 

Note that it says "traditionally."  I.e. Not within the scope of what Bondsmiths have historically been able to do.  However, things are different this time around, so anything's possible.  

Saying "Dalinar can't do it" is super misleading.  

[Calderis God Beyond]

21 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Note that it says "traditionally."  I.e. Not within the scope of what Bondsmiths have historically been able to do.  However, things are different this time around, so anything's possible.  

Add in what @Jace21 said about how we know that splintering can be reversed...

Quote

Chaos

Is Splintering a Shard permanent?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 25, 2012)

And yeah. 

[Jace21 Misting]

4 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

While I can agree it makes a lot of sense narrative-wise...for me, there're already SO many things that doesn't make any sense in those books narrative-wise, it makes me very, very skeptical.

If I'm right, and Kaladin will be a prominent character until book 10, it may change. Seven more books is a lot to gain more and more power. He may take the Stormfather after Dalinar's death and become a Bondsmith.

Whether or not a shard could be unsplintered and whether Dalinar could do it has been answered already so hopefully that helped.

As to your points about narrative and Kaladin's possible progression, you may be right but many people disagree. Your original query was why it's such a popular theory and hopefully that's been answered 

[Bigmikey357 Full Shardbearer]

For what it's worth, I can see Kaladin maybe graduating to take up a Bondsmith position if that's possible. I don't see him reaching Ascension. At this point in the story it's Dalinar or nobody.

[LerasiumMistborn Prelan]

10 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Whether or not a shard could be unsplintered and whether Dalinar could do it has been answered already so hopefully that helped.

As to your points about narrative and Kaladin's possible progression, you may be right but many people disagree. Your original query was why it's such a popular theory and hopefully that's been answered 

I would hate if it happens, as I think it's just awful and unfair to rob Dalinar of his story. 

But at the same time I'm afraid this is what Sanderson will write. He likes Kaladin and prefers writing him over other characters. He's probably the most important character and he always gets everything. Also, this is what fantasy is about...about overpowered main main character (Kaladin), who gains more and more power and kills main main villain (Odium)

Do I hate it? Yes. Absolutely.

Do I think this is what Sanderson will write? Also yes...unfortunately (as it would be total.horrible.waste of Dalinar).

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

For what it's worth, I can see Kaladin maybe graduating to take up a Bondsmith position if that's possible. I don't see him reaching Ascension. At this point in the story it's Dalinar or nobody.

I don't see him as a Bondsmith at all. It makes no sense narrative-wise, but I still think Sanderson will write something like this just to give more and more power to his beloved character, even if it means wasting all other characters, like Dalinar (and it was his narrative since book 1).

[Ixthos Midnight Essence]

@LerasiumMistborn I appreciate your frustration at what seems certain to you will happen, but perhaps you should address that issue in another thread. It might be better if you make a topic addressing what you think will happen with Kaladin becoming Honour, or fixing the shard, rather than Dalinar, and let this thread remain mainly about the idea of Honour being held by a committee. I appreciate how you feel, I really do, and it might be best if you did that to allow the conversation you would like to have about Dalinar and Kaladin to develop in a thread focused on that topic.

[LerasiumMistborn Prelan]

11 hours ago, Ixthos said:

@LerasiumMistborn I appreciate your frustration at what seems certain to you will happen, but perhaps you should address that issue in another thread. It might be better if you make a topic addressing what you think will happen with Kaladin becoming Honour, or fixing the shard, rather than Dalinar, and let this thread remain mainly about the idea of Honour being held by a committee. I appreciate how you feel, I really do, and it might be best if you did that to allow the conversation you would like to have about Dalinar and Kaladin to develop in a thread focused on that topic.

I don't see how discussing refording of Honor in a topic about reforging of Honor is off topic.

Anyway, I don't see multiple person holding one Shard. It's just...how? And why? It breaks all rules Sanderson set for this universe that is: one Shard - one Vessel ( and how this Vessel interprets this Shard's intent).

[Embrisk Forescout]

On 28/02/2019 at 2:20 PM, Karger said:

Why do you have a U in honor?

Maybe it's because there are people in other countries who like Brandon Sanderson... Just maybe, though. ^^

 

On 28/02/2019 at 6:24 PM, RShara said:

H is a placeholder letter to balance out a word, like in Nohadon. So Honor is as symmetrical as Nohadon.

So it's really Ronor, but the R is pronounced as an H, so it's Honor.

 A "h" sound and an "o" sound are different. In English, people pronounce it "onner” because we don't pronounce the "h." People actually pronounce it in Rosharian, according to Shallan.

[Ixthos Midnight Essence]

3 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I don't see how discussing refording of Honor in a topic about reforging of Honor is off topic.

Anyway, I don't see multiple person holding one Shard. It's just...how? And why? It breaks all rules Sanderson set for this universe that is: one Shard - one Vessel ( and how this Vessel interprets this Shard's intent).

This isn't a discussion on reforging Honour, but rather the final state Honour or the new shard formed from Honour and parts of the others will end up. In a sense, if the topic of Honour is like discussing ice cream, then this topic is about how Honour will be a ten-layer cone with each layer its own flavour. You are discussing the merits of the flavour of ice cream being chocolate over vanilla, and there being only one layer. They are related, but distinct, and discussing the one can touch on the other, but shouldn't overshadow it.

 

There actually is precedent for this, which I have addressed earlier, but to recap the Cosmere reasons for this, I will place it in spoilers

Spoiler

One of the letters is written by - or very strongly hinted to be written by - Bavadin, or rather, one of Bavadin's personalities. It indicates multiple separate minds, each distinct, controlling the shard, and indicates that more can be made, including the personality shaped to have certain opinions and attitudes, especially towards a certain wanderer, and Brandon has said before that Autonomy has been entire pantheons.

 

Also, the very first introduction to the idea of shards was in Mistborn, and your rule was broken by Sazed, who took up two shards. One possible way the stories can be distinct is to have this type of comparison - Sazed was one vessel with two shards, this could be multiple vessels with one (or maybe more) shards.

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by Ixthos
changed to to towards

[Ixthos Midnight Essence]

Quick side question that I want to ask that relates to this topic and would seriously like to here others thoughts on, so I won't make a new topic for it, as it is based off of this idea.

 

Supposing this theory is correct - do you think that the spren of the knights will dissolve into the shard, leaving only the minds of the vessels, but the memories of the spren survive in the new combined ten vessel shard but no longer be distinct individuals, or would the spren survive, buffered by the knight, making the total number of minds present twenty or higher? Or would the minds of the spren merge with the knight that they are linked to, so it wouldn't be (Dalinar) and the (Stormfather), (Renarin) and (Glys) etc., but (Dalinar-Stormfather), and (Renarin-Glys), (Kaladin-Syl-VoidsprenwhoistryingtostealKaladinfromSylHOWDARESHEKALADINISMINEMESYLNOSPRENELSEGOAWAYYOUGOLDENHUSSY!) etc.?

 

What are your thoughts? :-)