worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[xinoehp512]

32 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I feel like this is exactly what ritual magic would be able to address. In the alchemy/enchanting you're reprograming something to change/enhance it, which is what I thought we had said was what Ritual magic did.

For an enchantment, you have to put some sort of spell into the object. You can't really write Ritual magic in Spiritweb. It could be possible, however, to take an existing enchantment from either Natural or Innate magic and move it to another object.
 

 

34 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I'm not sure I'm following..... So you're saying that if people believed in someone enough they themselves would gain powers? I don't know why they would..... After all it's everyone's group faith in a person/thing/spren that's creating a special effect at all. So why would the strength of your individual faith give you power? I feel if we do it that way the world would clutter up fast with powered people.... which in my opinion is a bad thing.  

I’d better explain this from the top, starting with belief.

Belief is a broad term, and can mean a lot of things. Right now, I’m talking about belief in power, that a person/thing has capability. (I can explain what I mean in greater detail later; I don’t have a lot of time now) If a person believes in something or someone, Natural magic will flow into that person. Each believer produces only a small amount of power, but as the number of believers increases, the person begins to be more capable. This could make them stronger or smarter or more skilled, but does not give them the ability to share that power with others.

Ascension is the process by which a person with this power transitions from a physical form into a cognitive shadow, turning into a ‘god’. This could either happen voluntarily or upon death, and would cause the power to become more accessible to the person. Because of this, they can now share their power with their believers in the form of miracles. It would also make it harder to influence the PR, as they reside in the CR.

For a person to perform a miracle, they must first have a strong belief in their god. If it is not strong enough, the power will not be able to flow into them, won’t come through as strongly, or won’t last long enough. This power will enhance their natural ability to manipulate the world, and this manipulation would be the miracle. It would draw on the power of belief of all the god’s believers.

 

None of this is supposed to be easy; going down this path would require even more dedication that learning to use Ritual magic.   

[MacThorstenson]

35 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

For an enchantment, you have to put some sort of spell into the object. You can't really write Ritual magic in Spiritweb. It could be possible, however, to take an existing enchantment from either Natural or Innate magic and move it to another object.

I would say that I agree with steel here. 

The way I have it worked out, is that the spirit web is really just a string of connections moving from the spirit web to other things. Each of those connections is exactly the same, its only where they are reaching and where they attach that changes things. Living things have a lot more connections than non living things, so you can change their connections, move them around piece by piece, connect them to new things, do whatever you want with them. You can't get more connections without hard work, but by ritual magic you could easily move the connections around to achieve a desired affect.

1 hour ago, xinoehp512 said:

When you say 'change CS' do you mean turn them back into humans?

 

No not really, what I was referring to was changing who they are, what they are doing. You could anchor them to the PR, anchor them to an object, a place. Generally affecting CS's in any way would fall under necromancy.

In terms of the god thing, I am completely with Xinoehp. When It comes down to it, miracles don't equal faith. People can see miraculous things, but not believe in a god, just like how people can believe in a god, yet not see it do miracles. So miracles aren't always faith increasing events, and it doesn't immediately become a feedback cycle.

I would say, that each god is also bound by the faith of their believers, in that they can't exercise their power in a way that would go contrary to what their believers think they would do.

Imagine that people believe that I am a just and merciful god. I can't go around smiting people because they hurt the feelings of one of my believers. I could talk to them, but what I would say would fit within my code of justice. I wouldn't kill them for mean words. Likewise, miracles would also be bound by the same way. Someone couldn't channel the gods power for something that the god wouldn't do already.

I would note that most if not all of the time, this wouldn't be a restriction. Most gods would only get to power by being themselves, there isn't much benefit to doing anything else. If you lie to get to power, you can't do anything that's outside of what people think your power is. Most gods would be happy being themselves, because thats what people had faith in.

Also, I think ascension shouldn't be an issue of critical mass. Ascension should be by a change of belief, saying that the god is now omnipresent. If people only see the god as a person with a body, then they don't ascend. But if people see the god as a person who can watch over everyone, then the god can ascend.

 

[Steel Inquisitive]

42 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

For an enchantment, you have to put some sort of spell into the object. You can't really write Ritual magic in Spiritweb. It could be possible, however, to take an existing enchantment from either Natural or Innate magic and move it to another object.

Ritual magic is like programing, right? Unless I've completely missed how it works (which is possible), It's the magic that would be capable of creating spells. I thought how we had it working (at least for enchanting) was that you needed to take the spirit web from something like a plant, break it down to raw investiture, then reprogram it to do whatever you wanted. (So long as you have enough investiture.) I feel like reprograming a spirit web would be exactly what it's best at.

43 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

I’d better explain this from the top, starting with belief.

Belief is a broad term, and can mean a lot of things. Right now, I’m talking about belief in power, that a person/thing has capability. (I can explain what I mean in greater detail later; I don’t have a lot of time now) If a person believes in something or someone, Natural magic will flow into that person. Each believer produces only a small amount of power, but as the number of believers increases, the person begins to be more capable. This could make them stronger or smarter or more skilled, but does not give them the ability to share that power with others.

Ascension is the process by which a person with this power transitions from a physical form into a cognitive shadow, turning into a ‘god’. This could either happen voluntarily or upon death, and would cause the power to become more accessible to the person. Because of this, they can now share their power with their believers in the form of miracles. It would also make it harder to influence the PR, as they reside in the CR.

For a person to perform a miracle, they must first have a strong belief in their god. If it is not strong enough, the power will not be able to flow into them, won’t come through as strongly, or won’t last long enough. This power will enhance their natural ability to manipulate the world, and this manipulation would be the miracle. It would draw on the power of belief of all the god’s believers.

 

None of this is supposed to be easy; going down this path would require even more dedication that learning to use Ritual magic.   

Ahhhhhhh............ I see what you're saying.

You're thinking of them like mini shards(correct me if I'm wrong) while I was thinking of them more like Returned. In my mind they would still be in the PR and basically human..... they just wouldn't age and be very hard to kill. I was picturing more like folk heroes made incarnate or like the Greek gods. In the flesh with a few more perks. They would have special abilities bestowed upon them by whatever the people believed..... which could be anything! Soldiers who saw their general fighting with them and slaying tons of enemies might start believing that he had the strength of a hounded men. As the belief took root the general would find his strength increasing. As he performs even better in battle with the increased strength, the rumors would increase and say that he could kill foes with a touch..... and so on and so forth until he's worshipped as a god! (although many wouldn't actually make it all the way to godhood..... a simple thing like a forced march could convince them that there's nothing special about him after all)

I would be fine if you guys want to go with the mini shard idea but was more or less picturing something like the above. Peoples' beliefs are often strange... so we could have it both ways if we wanted.

[+ZincAboutIt]

23 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

I would say that I agree with steel here. 

The way I have it worked out, is that the spirit web is really just a string of connections moving from the spirit web to other things. Each of those connections is exactly the same, its only where they are reaching and where they attach that changes things. Living things have a lot more connections than non living things, so you can change their connections, move them around piece by piece, connect them to new things, do whatever you want with them. You can't get more connections without hard work, but by ritual magic you could easily move the connections around to achieve a desired affect.

 

No not really, what I was referring to was changing who they are, what they are doing. You could anchor them to the PR, anchor them to an object, a place. Generally affecting CS's in any way would fall under necromancy.

In terms of the god thing, I am completely with Xinoehp. When It comes down to it, miracles don't equal faith. People can see miraculous things, but not believe in a god, just like how people can believe in a god, yet not see it do miracles. So miracles aren't always faith increasing events, and it doesn't immediately become a feedback cycle.

I would say, that each god is also bound by the faith of their believers, in that they can't exercise their power in a way that would go contrary to what their believers think they would do.

Imagine that people believe that I am a just and merciful god. I can't go around smiting people because they hurt the feelings of one of my believers. I could talk to them, but what I would say would fit within my code of justice. I wouldn't kill them for mean words. Likewise, miracles would also be bound by the same way. Someone couldn't channel the gods power for something that the god wouldn't do already.

I would note that most if not all of the time, this wouldn't be a restriction. Most gods would only get to power by being themselves, there isn't much benefit to doing anything else. If you lie to get to power, you can't do anything that's outside of what people think your power is. Most gods would be happy being themselves, because thats what people had faith in.

Also, I think ascension shouldn't be an issue of critical mass. Ascension should be by a change of belief, saying that the god is now omnipresent. If people only see the god as a person with a body, then they don't ascend. But if people see the god as a person who can watch over everyone, then the god can ascend.

 

So the person channeling the god’s power is acting as an extension of the god’s intent (for the lack of a better word). Like a wand directing the power of a wizard? If this is the case then I agree this makes sense. It’s not so much that the person’s faith gives them powers of their own, they become more of an instrument of the group-faith? I think that’s a sufficient limit for me on the power, people can’t just go around piggybacking on god-power to do anything they like, it must be within strict limits. Like a priesthood of sorts? Dedicated instruments of the god?

Edit: But if I’m being honest I like @Steel Inquisitive’s folk-hero idea quite a lot too. It would also open up opportunity to introduce folkloric creatures, things that aren’t people and aren’t necessarily nice. If a town believed that the deep lake down in the valley contained a kelpie that enjoyed drowning people, perhaps one would begin to appear. A copse of trees has developed a taste for human flesh? Maybe a few people actually go missing in that wood. And you could have a whole organization dedicated to eradicating superstition amongst rural communities, for safety and reduction in monsters. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by ZincAboutIt

[MacThorstenson]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Ritual magic is like programing, right? Unless I've completely missed how it works (which is possible), It's the magic that would be capable of creating spells. I thought how we had it working (at least for enchanting) was that you needed to take the spirit web from something like a plant, break it down to raw investiture, then reprogram it to do whatever you wanted. (So long as you have enough investiture.) I feel like reprograming a spirit web would be exactly what it's best at.

Basically what I think.

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

You're thinking of them like mini shards(correct me if I'm wrong) while I was thinking of them more like Returned. In my mind they would still be in the PR and basically human..... they just wouldn't age and be very hard to kill. I was picturing more like folk heroes made incarnate or like the Greek gods. In the flesh with a few more perks. They would have special abilities bestowed upon them by whatever the people believed..... which could be anything! Soldiers who saw their general fighting with them and slaying tons of enemies might start believing that he had the strength of a hounded men. As the belief took root the general would find his strength increasing. As he performs even better in battle with the increased strength, the rumors would increase and say that he could kill foes with a touch..... and so on and so forth until he's worshipped as a god! (although many wouldn't actually make it all the way to godhood..... a simple thing like a forced march could convince them that there's nothing special about him after all)

That is a very interesting idea, I didn't think of that.

I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive, see my point below.

19 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Also, I think ascension shouldn't be an issue of critical mass of faith. Ascension should be by a change of belief, saying that the god is now omnipresent. If people only see the god as a person with a body, then they don't ascend. But if people see the god as a person who can watch over everyone, then the god can ascend.

This way, the people who's faith isn't in an omnipresent being have their folk hero, and if their god is omnipresent, then they have an ascended god. I do think that miracles don't work unless the god has ascended.

5 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

So the person channeling the god’s power is acting as an extension of the god’s intent (for the lack of a better word). Like a wand directing the power of a wizard? If this is the case then I agree this makes sense. It’s not so much that the person’s faith gives them powers of their own, they become more of an instrument of the group-faith? I think that’s a sufficient limit for me on the power, people can’t just go around piggybacking on god-power to do anything they like, it must be within strict limits. Like a priesthood of sorts? Dedicated instruments of the god?

Yes and no. Yes in that I basically agree with what you said, but I dislike the instrument part because it removes the part of the believer. The person is still a person with faith, with desires and a life, they just have access to this power if they need it for something that's inline with the gods will.

If the action that they need the gods power for is something the god would do if it was on the planet, then they have access to the gods power. They can still choose whether to use it or not, but they would be able to use it if they so desired. They aren't an instrument in anyone's hands, they are their own agent, but they are choosing to act in like with the will of their god.

[+ZincAboutIt]

1 minute ago, MacThorstenson said:

Yes and no. Yes in that I basically agree with what you said, but I dislike the instrument part because it removes the part of the believer. The person is still a person with faith, with desires and a life, they just have access to this power if they need it for something that's inline with the gods will.

If the action that they need the gods power for is something the god would do if it was on the planet, then they have access to the gods power. They can still choose whether to use it or not, but they would be able to use it if they so desired. They aren't an instrument in anyone's hands, they are their own agent, but they are choosing to act in like with the will of their god.

Ah I think perhaps I used the wrong word, because I actually agree with you about the free will and agency. Agent is a better word, or perhaps emissary? They can choose to act or not, but the action is limited by the god’s own personage/will. So basically yes, sorry I picked a bad word for that one.

[MacThorstenson]

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

Ah I think perhaps I used the wrong word, because I actually agree with you about the free will and agency. Agent is a better word, or perhaps emissary? They can choose to act or not, but the action is limited by the god’s own personage/will. So basically yes, sorry I picked a bad word for that one.

Great! Its good to see that we are on the same page!

[Steel Inquisitive]

16 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

So the person channeling the god’s power is acting as an extension of the god’s intent (for the lack of a better word). Like a wand directing the power of a wizard? If this is the case then I agree this makes sense. It’s not so much that the person’s faith gives them powers of their own, they become more of an instrument of the group-faith? I think that’s a sufficient limit for me on the power, people can’t just go around piggybacking on god-power to do anything they like, it must be within strict limits. Like a priesthood of sorts? Dedicated instruments of the god?

Edit: But if I’m being honest I like @Steel Inquisitive’s folk-hero idea quite a lot too. It would also open up opportunity to introduce folkloric creatures, things that aren’t people and aren’t necessarily nice. If a town believed that the deep lake down in the valley contained a kelpie that enjoyed drowning people, perhaps one would begin to appear. A copse of trees has developed a taste for human flesh? Maybe a few people actually go missing in that wood. And you could have a whole organization dedicated to eradicating superstition amongst rural communities, for safety and reduction in monsters. 

I LOVE the idea of an organization running around trying to stop superstition! 

4 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive, see my point below.

This way, the people who's faith isn't in an omnipresent being have their folk hero, and if their god is omnipresent, then they have an ascended god. I do think that miracles don't work unless the god has ascended.

Yes and no. Yes in that I basically agree with what you said, but I dislike the instrument part because it removes the part of the believer. The person is still a person with faith, with desires and a life, they just have access to this power if they need it for something that's inline with the gods will.

If the action that they need the gods power for is something the god would do if it was on the planet, then they have access to the gods power. They can still choose whether to use it or not, but they would be able to use it if they so desired. They aren't an instrument in anyone's hands, they are their own agent, but they are choosing to act in like with the will of their god.

My computer didn't show me your post until after I posted..... So I think we're on the same page! 

Now that I see what you guys mean about followers gaining powers, I like it. I agree that it should only work with the ascended ones.... I think they would probably be more powerful at that point? Or be less well defined, allowing them greater flexibility. I fully agree that the gods would be bound by their followers faith. Basically they would be trading some/a lot of their freewill for power.... a trade off not all people would want!

I think we're all on the same page..... I really have to go to bed (work.... blah...) but will check in tomorrow.

[xinoehp512]

13 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

My computer didn't show me your post until after I posted..... So I think we're on the same page! 

I think so too.

13 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Ritual magic is like programing, right? Unless I've completely missed how it works (which is possible), It's the magic that would be capable of creating spells. I thought how we had it working (at least for enchanting) was that you needed to take the spirit web from something like a plant, break it down to raw investiture, then reprogram it to do whatever you wanted. (So long as you have enough investiture.) I feel like reprograming a spirit web would be exactly what it's best at.

13 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

The way I have it worked out, is that the spirit web is really just a string of connections moving from the spirit web to other things. Each of those connections is exactly the same, its only where they are reaching and where they attach that changes things. Living things have a lot more connections than non living things, so you can change their connections, move them around piece by piece, connect them to new things, do whatever you want with them. You can't get more connections without hard work, but by ritual magic you could easily move the connections around to achieve a desired affect.

I don't think that Spiritweb is the right way to go to get what you want. What spiritweb does is give things a soul and define what they are. How could it achieve the effects you are saying it could achieve?

Edited March 3, 2019 by xinoehp512

[MacThorstenson]

3 hours ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think so too.

I don't think that Spiritweb is the right way to go to get what you want. What spiritweb does is give things a soul and define what they are. How could it achieve the effects you are saying it could achieve?

I think the spirit web is exactly what you want to change to enchant things. You just define the object as something different than what it was before 

EDIT: I think that most enchantments, unless they are visual, would require some form of fuel in order to provide an effect, like how most things in cosmere require fuel.

EDIT 2:

I think that most of the stuff about the magic system is wrapped up now, so what do people think the fuel should be?

Edited March 3, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[+ZincAboutIt]

Fuel could be crystals, a mineral, etc. as has been suggested. If magic naturally kind of pools in certain places we could have veins of this “magic” running through the earth. Another choice for fuel could be blood though that’s rather dark for probably a lot of people. I do like the idea of the fuel source being at least somewhat costly, whether morally or economically. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

Idea #1.

People draw power directly through their spirit web connections with others. Basically you would be stealing power from all your best friends/family/admirers/etc. I think this could be another factor in becoming a god. The more people who look up to you or know you well, the more power you have to draw on. This would have the downside of killing all those that you're close to if you draw too much power form them. I like this idea because of what it would do to society. No one would want to be friends with magic wielders as that could lead to their deaths but at the same time they would want their services. (This could also explain why they aren't too scientifically advanced with Ritual magic.)  In a world like this I believe magic wielders would be hunted/hated in most parts of the world.

Idea #2

Investiture grows in the form of a weed. The weeds grow fast and are very invasive, killing most other plants. It's abundance doesn't make life any easier, however, because it 'dies' (loses its magic properties) within a few seconds of being picked. People would have to carry planters with them if they needed a reliable power source or they would have to trust to luck that there would be some growing where they need it. I like this idea because it creates some difficult logistics to work with while also providing plenty of fuel.   

[xinoehp512]

I personally like the idea of having the investiture be a semi-nonrenewable resource, like coal.

18 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

I think the spirit web is exactly what you want to change to enchant things. You just define the object as something different than what it was before 

EDIT: I think that most enchantments, unless they are visual, would require some form of fuel in order to provide an effect, like how most things in cosmere require fuel.

EDIT 2:

I think that most of the stuff about the magic system is wrapped up now, so what do people think the fuel should be?

*sigh* I don't think that Ritual magic should be able to fabricate a completely artificial spiritweb. I feel like that doesn't have enough restrictions. You could make anything. I would suggest instead that enchantments from Ritual magic are "stolen" from the magic that Innates use. Alchemy could be trying to make use of Natural magic.

Edited March 4, 2019 by xinoehp512

[MacThorstenson]

*sigh* I think that then it has too many restrictions. 

The amounts of innates in the world would be so little, and their power would be above normal, that alchemy would cease to be a thing. 

Alchemy is just as complex, if not more complex than hemalurgy, and if you limit the materials you can use to a small subset of the population, then there could not realistically be anything there. Discovering that you can steal a bit of someone’s soul and apply it to an object doesn’t happen on accident.

Alchemy also just doesn’t at all fit with what we have for natural magic, assuming it had to fit we would need to have hundreds, if not thousands, of people believe that an object had magical powers before it actually did. 

In addition, I dislike the idea of having the most widespread use of ritual magic having to reaquire human sacrifice to accomplish it, because you can’t steal bits of peoples souls and expect them to survive. 

Edit: @xinoehp512

 

Edited March 4, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[xinoehp512]

3 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

*sigh* I think that then it has too many restrictions. 

The amounts of innates in the world would be so little, and their power would be above normal, that alchemy would cease to be a thing. 

Alchemy is just as complex, if not more complex than hemalurgy, and if you limit the materials you can use to a small subset of the population, then there could not realistically be anything there. Discovering that you can steal a bit of someone’s soul and apply it to an object doesn’t happen on accident.

Alchemy also just doesn’t at all fit with what we have for natural magic, assuming it had to fit we would need to have hundreds, if not thousands, of people believe that an object had magical powers before it actually did. 

In addition, I dislike the idea of having the most widespread use of ritual magic having to reaquire human sacrifice to accomplish it, because you can’t steal bits of peoples souls and expect them to survive. 

Edit: @xinoehp512

 

I think you misunderstand what I mean. I was suggesting that enchanting would be taking Innate spells that had been placed on objects and moving them to a different object. They could be broken down, but only so much. The point was not to steal from the Innate's soul.

When I say alchemy, I mean potion-mixing. I was thinking that that would be taking things (plants, animals) from nature with magic in them and mixing them together to see what happens.

[+ZincAboutIt]

14 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

When I say alchemy, I mean potion-mixing. I was thinking that that would be taking things (plants, animals) from nature with magic in them and mixing them together to see what happens.

What kind of magical properties would plants and animals have on this world? I was under the impression that natural magic would work via group belief, so sometimes a plant/animal/person could have miraculous powers but could those properties be shared without the god-ascension aspect? Short of the source of magic being a plant as suggested above, idk if I like the idea of magical plants (in the sense of more traditional wizard-y potion making). I think the idea of alchemy would be much more interesting if it were the art/“science” of effectively convincing one thing it was another thing so deeply that it became that other thing. (Even If that isn’t what is actually happening, I figure that is how most lay-people would THINK it is happening. If people already sort of understand that enough belief can make a god, then I would expect them to conceptualize other magic in this way. Unless of course most people have not made the connection between belief and natural magic, and simply think that life works this way “because it does.”) Although I could be totally not understanding Ritual magic here  

[kenod]

1 hour ago, ZincAboutIt said:

What kind of magical properties would plants and animals have on this world? I was under the impression that natural magic would work via group belief, so sometimes a plant/animal/person could have miraculous powers but could those properties be shared without the god-ascension aspect? Short of the source of magic being a plant as suggested above, idk if I like the idea of magical plants (in the sense of more traditional wizard-y potion making). I think the idea of alchemy would be much more interesting if it were the art/“science” of effectively convincing one thing it was another thing so deeply that it became that other thing. (Even If that isn’t what is actually happening, I figure that is how most lay-people would THINK it is happening. If people already sort of understand that enough belief can make a god, then I would expect them to conceptualize other magic in this way. Unless of course most people have not made the connection between belief and natural magic, and simply think that life works this way “because it does.”) Although I could be totally not understanding Ritual magic here  

I think magical plants could happen. Take a look a lot of medieval folk beliefs, where people thought plants had certain powers, If people think the same thing here than Natural magic would make this likely to happen.
On that note, I'd say that taking folk beliefs into account, it would be quite possible for certain places like old forests, hidden springs, and swamps to have magic animals or spirits of their own. These wouldn't really be gods, though it could be a genius loci with some form of control over the area, but other smaller spirits would probably also exist.

Also, if the people believing in a god vanish, what happens to the god? Do they just disappear, or do they turn into something lesser, something that still exists, but doesn't have any real power?

[+ZincAboutIt]

Just now, kenod said:

I think magical plants could happen. Take a look a lot of medieval folk beliefs, where people thought plants had certain powers, If people think the same thing here than Natural magic would make this likely to happen.
On that note, I'd say that taking folk beliefs into account, it would be quite possible for certain places like old forests, hidden springs, and swamps to have magic animals or spirits of their own. These wouldn't really be gods, though it could be a genius loci with some form of control over the area, but other smaller spirits would probably also exist.

Also, if the people believing in a god vanish, what happens to the god? Do they just disappear, or do they turn into something lesser, something that still exists, but doesn't have any real power?

Yeah that’s a good point re: folk belief and plants. Complaint against plants rescinded!

I think if all memory of the god is gone, the god itself should probably “die” but I think that some memory of belief could keep a kind of weird half-life thing going for it. Like it doesn’t have any power but is still limping along, perhaps trying to revive its own legend? Sounds eerie and bizarre, I like it. 

[kenod]

Just now, ZincAboutIt said:

perhaps trying to revive its own legend? Sounds eerie and bizarre, I like it. 

This could give some interesting plot-lines with weird cultists.

Also, if we have things like nature gods, would the general belief in nature spirits existing give all of them a power boost, even if there was only a single village close to them? This would mean they would always have at least enough power to be a threat, even if there's almost nobody living nearby enough to know of the forest.
This could actually lead to a human god doing something similar to what the Christians did back when they first converted Europa, changing local legends from dark nature gods that need to be kept appeased to stories of dwarfs and elves, that help people, or just play pranks, so not something worth praying to.

On that note, I'd expect human ascended gods to be a lot friendlier, or at least more understandable to humans, while gods that arose on their own, from concepts for example, or that came to being as a nature spirit would operate much more on blue and orange morality, being hard to understand and dangerous.

[+ZincAboutIt]

Just now, kenod said:

This could give some interesting plot-lines with weird cultists.

Also, if we have things like nature gods, would the general belief in nature spirits existing give all of them a power boost, even if there was only a single village close to them? This would mean they would always have at least enough power to be a threat, even if there's almost nobody living nearby enough to know of the forest.
This could actually lead to a human god doing something similar to what the Christians did back when they first converted Europa, changing local legends from dark nature gods that need to be kept appeased to stories of dwarfs and elves, that help people, or just play pranks, so not something worth praying to.

On that note, I'd expect human ascended gods to be a lot friendlier, or at least more understandable to humans, while gods that arose on their own, from concepts for example, or that came to being as a nature spirit would operate much more on blue and orange morality, being hard to understand and dangerous.

1. Yes, I think so. I mentioned an organization trying to undo or "soften" superstition in areas that could help transform dark, powerful gods into something less harmful. I think that the "faerie treatment" could be one way to do this. It's worth noting that something could also then be turned back into its more frightening form if beliefs changed back, which I think is also pretty neat.

2. I agree, I think that human gods would be inherently attuned to humanity and operate on more of an understandable basis (though I could see a war god or something similar being frightening or cruel). Conceptual gods and nature spirits I agree would be very far out of the realm of "humanity" and would operate on their own ideas of what was good, bad, etc. Much harder to reason with.

[xinoehp512]

What do people think about my Natural/Ritual dichotomy idea?

[kenod]

7 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

What do people think about my Natural/Ritual dichotomy idea?

Where was that?

[xinoehp512]

On 2/28/2019 at 10:17 PM, xinoehp512 said:

You know, I'm seeing an interesting division here.

The natural magic of the world is very loose and undefined: people can believe anything, so almost anything can happen. Because it's so nebulous, however, it's hard to make it do anything reliably

The Ritual magic, however, is very structured. It can't do as much as Natural magic because of its rules, but what it can do, it does well. And it does it reliably.

Could we build off of this dichotomy? Maybe Innate magic could be some sort of combination of the two.

I'm thinking even more now that Innate should be some fusion of Ritual and Natural, with the ability to go either way depending on the user.

[kenod]

Sounds good to me, though I'm not entirely sure on how the Innate magic idea would work.
 

[+ZincAboutIt]

I agree the dichotomy sounds good but I am also confused about the Innate magic. What kind of blend were you thinking @xinoehp512?