worldbuilding Fantasy World planning

[xinoehp512]

12 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I mean, yeah, but not to the degree that symbols are and ChaySan, as far as I'm aware, was only combat oriented.

Crystals could work..... I was hoping for something more nature based (hence fireflies). Are you thinking different types of crystals have different affects or are you thinking there would be one type that facilitates everything? 

It actually wasn't the best in combat, if I remember correctly. It was intended as a sort of meditative behavior.

My thought for the crystals was a source for the magic that would be more or less nonrenewable, similar to fossil fuels here on earth. There would likely be only one type, but there could be a few more.

[MacThorstenson]

I like the idea of linking the magic to the worlds mutability, but I think that it would be best if that wasn’t the main power. 

What if there was a branch of the ecology area that basically was like the nahel bond. People bond with aspects of the environment, and then they have the power to manipulate it to a certain extent. 

Other groups of people can influence the environment, but it’s less immediate because it’s a group identity and not a single person. 

I think that the fuel for the magic should naturally generate, but that certain innate people should be able to act as a conduit, fueling rituals via storing power in objects. 

I think that having multiple ways the magic generates is good, like one geologic way, one natural way, stuff like that. 

[+ZincAboutIt]

7 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

I like the idea of linking the magic to the worlds mutability, but I think that it would be best if that wasn’t the main power. 

What if there was a branch of the ecology area that basically was like the nahel bond. People bond with aspects of the environment, and then they have the power to manipulate it to a certain extent. 

Other groups of people can influence the environment, but it’s less immediate because it’s a group identity and not a single person. 

I think that the fuel for the magic should naturally generate, but that certain innate people should be able to act as a conduit, fueling rituals via storing power in objects. 

I think that having multiple ways the magic generates is good, like one geologic way, one natural way, stuff like that. 

I sketched out an idea a long time ago that allowed people to store excess magic in their own bodies by carving runes into their skin, using themselves as a battery of sorts. The entire basis of the magic system revolved around the buying and selling of life-force energy (more runes = more energy storage) so if it generates from a natural source it would work differently. But, perhaps something like that could work as a way for people to bring power with them to work with in other places? If we have a magical alphabet/sigil set, can it be used directly on people? I know that’s one of the first things I’d try out.

Sorry I’m trying to play catch-up here, traveling atm.

[Voidus]

4 hours ago, MacThorstenson said:

The DA needs to be kept relatively low powered, because we have hemalurgy and thus have access to whatever we can steal from other people.

Sorry to drag conversation back but just to offer some opinions on potential nerfs for Hemalurgy:

1. The DA may not have been around long and so has little to no knowledge of appropriate bindpoints for this world
2. The consequences of Hemalurgy are more drastic here, limiting the number of spikes someone can have to one, maybe two.
3. Presence of gods may be a deterrent if we want to have local gods here.

[MacThorstenson]

That does raise a point, do we want to have God’s? If we do, what kind of god are they and how do they interact with the magic system. 

EDIT: what if the gods were people with the ability to create the crystals? Not founders of the universe, but born and lived forever, due to the magic sustaining them. They could access the power to fuel the magic. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[+ZincAboutIt]

If the physical world can be altered through perception, could people theoretically believe a god into existence with enough faith? Patron gods, Gods of specific places and locations, “lesser” gods if you will, like in pre-Christian Europe, maybe?

[Steel Inquisitive]

9 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

EDIT: what if the gods were people with the ability to create the crystals? Not founders of the universe, but born and lived forever, due to the magic sustaining them. They could access the power to fuel the magic. 

Maybe these could be the people with the innate powers. You wouldn't automatically become a god unless you had enough power. The "gods" still wouldn't be immortal as they are aging, but they (depending on how powerful they are) have a life expectancy of thousands of years. The demi gods (those who can do what the gods do but are to weak to gain the life extension) would be revered and/or feared. 

[+ZincAboutIt]

1 minute ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Maybe these could be the people with the innate powers. You wouldn't automatically become a god unless you had enough power. The "gods" still wouldn't be immortal as they are aging, but they (depending on how powerful they are) have a life expectancy of thousands of years. The demi gods (those who can do what the gods do but are to weak to gain the life extension) would be revered and/or feared. 

Have you read Brian McClellan’s work? This reminds me of his system a bit. I like this direction though, it’s cool.

[Steel Inquisitive]

12 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

If the physical world can be altered through perception, could people theoretically believe a god into existence with enough faith? Patron gods, Gods of specific places and locations, “lesser” gods if you will, like in pre-Christian Europe, maybe?

I think this would work really well too. It is a cosmere function already I think.... *tries to remember all those random conversations with the Stormfather* Well I think it's a cosmere function. Would they be able to interact with the world? Or would they be just like the Roshar super spren?

3 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Have you read Brian McClellan’s work? This reminds me of his system a bit. I like this direction though, it’s cool.

I haven't. Is he good?

[MacThorstenson]

Just now, Steel Inquisitive said:

I think this would work really well too. It is a cosmere function already I think.... *tries to remember all those random conversations with the Stormfather* Well I think it's a cosmere function. Would they be able to interact with the world? Or would they be just like the Roshar super spren?

Whatever we want. I would me more inclined to say that people's faith and belief can only affect existing things, and not create new ones. This way people could become great through peoples faith. Not necessarily gods being created.

[+ZincAboutIt]

7 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I haven't. Is he good?

Yes!!!

Also to your other point, I would say yes, they can interact with the world, or I would want them to at least. I think it could get very interesting in that the Gods were created by their believers out of worship, but the god is also tied into the followers’ expectations and faiths, so in a way they could be both the seevant AND the served, if you will. There is free will but also compulsion to fulfill “the faith.” 

Edited March 1, 2019 by ZincAboutIt

[MacThorstenson]

2 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Yes!!!

Also to your other point, I would say yes, they can interact with the world, or I would want them to at least. I think it could get very interesting in that the Gods were created by their believers out of worship, but the god is also tied into the followers’ expectations and faiths, so in a way they could be both the servant AND the served, if you will. There is free will but also compulsion to fulfill “the faith.” 

That could be very interesting.

What if the gods had a bond with the people? Where they were bound by the peoples faith and in return they got amazing powers.

Also @xinoehp512 for the mutability of the world it would be better for the CR to connect than the SR, because the SR is a set of perfect ideals and the CR is the part that's actually heavily affected by perception. 

An example is stormlight healing. It tries to heal you to the ideal that's in the SR, but is filtered through the CR. So they don't heal kaladins brands because he views himself as having them.

I like where this is heading, but I think we need a more organized approach to this. We can start in one of two ways, the first is that we talk about what we want to do with the magic, and then we build a system around it, or we construct the fundamentals and make sure that they are solid, then we experiment through what we could do in RP with them.

[Steel Inquisitive]

13 minutes ago, ZincAboutIt said:

Also to your other point, I would say yes, they can interact with the world, or I would want them to at least. I think it could get very interesting in that the Gods were created by their believers out of worship, but the god is also tied into the followers’ expectations and faiths, so in a way they could be both the seevant AND the served, if you will. There is free will but also compulsion to fulfill “the faith.” 

I'm liking this concept more! I would want them to be present in the setting. Something like the Returned with them having a temple where people could come visit them. They wouldn't need to be in the same city or anything. In fact even more interesting if they are genuine rivals. Imagine a city-state losing to a rival and the people's faith is shaken so much that the god "dies". 

Edit: 

Quote

I like where this is heading, but I think we need a more organized approach to this. We can start in one of two ways, the first is that we talk about what we want to do with the magic, and then we build a system around it, or we construct the fundamentals and make sure that they are solid, then we experiment through what we could do in RP with them.

I agree. I feel like no matter what we do there will be experimentation as we RP but having the foundations set would be good. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Steel Inquisitive

[MacThorstenson]

What we have so far:

3 parts to magic

• Innate
  • People who are born with the ability to use the magic.
• Ecology
  • CR is close to the PR, land is influenced by perception, and areas that guilds control have affects from those guilds.
• Ritual
  • Symbols can have magical affects.

There is a fuel to the magic that exists in the physical realm and is necessary for ritual magic.

It has 3 realms, like the cosmere. The magic functions on the same principles, but isn't the same.

There are gods and they are influenced by perception.

Is this what we have so far?

Edited March 1, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[Steel Inquisitive]

We need to figure out:

1. What the magic system does. (Is anything possible with enough knowledge? Or is there restrictions?)
2. What type of fuel. (This will dictate how hard it is to use the magic and have a big effect on point 3)
3. How pervasive the magic is. (Is it common? Rare? Unheard of? So common place people don't even think about it?)

What else?

Edited March 1, 2019 by Steel Inquisitive

[MacThorstenson]

Heres my answer to 1.

I think that the ecology should be limited to random magically invested things. Like the land being linked to perception, and random magical phenomena.

The innate magic should be able to do what the ritual magic does, but easier because its imbued withing the persons sDNA, its also a lot more simpler, because its random. But I think that they should be able to do it without fuel.

If we were to liken it to something we already have, it would be like being a misting, as compared to a mistborn. The mistborn needs metal to do a lot of things, but the misting can only do one thing. In this case, the misting wouldn't need metal, drawing the power directly from the spiritual realm.

The ritual magic shouldn't be influenced by perception or limited by guild, I think that certain guilds may have a preference for what types of magic they do, but what magic they use isn't written into the system by anything.

I don't think the ritual system should be able to do anything. I think that it should only be able to change things that are already there. Essentially it can transport anything on any of the realms and splice it together, move it, do anything.

This way we can have things like imbuing an object with power, or spiritually editing things and still be limited. I would say that the lowest it could go would be the atomic level. You can't create gold from lead, but you can move all the gold in a mine to one area.

You couldn't give make someone have innate magical power, but you could give them someone elses.

What do you guys think?

[Steel Inquisitive]

2 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Heres my answer to 1.

I think that the ecology should be limited to random magically invested things. Like the land being linked to perception, and random magical phenomena.

The innate magic should be able to do what the ritual magic does, but easier because its imbued withing the persons sDNA, its also a lot more simpler, because its random. But I think that they should be able to do it without fuel.

If we were to liken it to something we already have, it would be like being a misting, as compared to a mistborn. The mistborn needs metal to do a lot of things, but the misting can only do one thing. In this case, the misting wouldn't need metal, drawing the power directly from the spiritual realm.

The ritual magic shouldn't be influenced by perception or limited by guild, I think that certain guilds may have a preference for what types of magic they do, but what magic they use isn't written into the system by anything.

I don't think the ritual system should be able to do anything. I think that it should only be able to change things that are already there. Essentially it can transport anything on any of the realms and splice it together, move it, do anything.

This way we can have things like imbuing an object with power, or spiritually editing things and still be limited. I would say that the lowest it could go would be the atomic level. You can't create gold from lead, but you can move all the gold in a mine to one area.

You couldn't give make someone have innate magical power, but you could give them someone elses.

What do you guys think?

Mostly agree. I think the Innates should still need fuel.(Though maybe they could have greater efficiency.)

I agree that I don't want the ritual magic to be able to create things out of thin air. If they could enchant items that would be cool. (and have the darker implications. "What happens when you use the magic on people. can you enchant them like I did this battleax?")

[+ZincAboutIt]

25 minutes ago, MacThorstenson said:

Heres my answer to 1.

I think that the ecology should be limited to random magically invested things. Like the land being linked to perception, and random magical phenomena.

The innate magic should be able to do what the ritual magic does, but easier because its imbued withing the persons sDNA, its also a lot more simpler, because its random. But I think that they should be able to do it without fuel.

If we were to liken it to something we already have, it would be like being a misting, as compared to a mistborn. The mistborn needs metal to do a lot of things, but the misting can only do one thing. In this case, the misting wouldn't need metal, drawing the power directly from the spiritual realm.

The ritual magic shouldn't be influenced by perception or limited by guild, I think that certain guilds may have a preference for what types of magic they do, but what magic they use isn't written into the system by anything.

I don't think the ritual system should be able to do anything. I think that it should only be able to change things that are already there. Essentially it can transport anything on any of the realms and splice it together, move it, do anything.

This way we can have things like imbuing an object with power, or spiritually editing things and still be limited. I would say that the lowest it could go would be the atomic level. You can't create gold from lead, but you can move all the gold in a mine to one area.

You couldn't give make someone have innate magical power, but you could give them someone elses.

What do you guys think?

On board with all of this!

[xinoehp512]

1 hour ago, MacThorstenson said:

What we have so far:

3 parts to magic

• Innate
  • People who are born with the ability to use the magic.
• Ecology
  • CR is close to the PR, land is influenced by perception, and areas that guilds control have affects from those guilds.
• Ritual
  • Symbols can have magical affects.

There is a fuel to the magic that exists in the physical realm and is necessary for ritual magic.

It has 3 realms, like the cosmere. The magic functions on the same principles, but isn't the same.

There are gods and they are influenced by perception.

Is this what we have so far?

This sounds good! I really like the idea of people being able to "ascend" if enough people believe in them. That has a lot of possibilities...

1 hour ago, MacThorstenson said:

Heres my answer to 1.

I think that the ecology should be limited to random magically invested things. Like the land being linked to perception, and random magical phenomena.

The innate magic should be able to do what the ritual magic does, but easier because its imbued withing the persons sDNA, its also a lot more simpler, because its random. But I think that they should be able to do it without fuel.

If we were to liken it to something we already have, it would be like being a misting, as compared to a mistborn. The mistborn needs metal to do a lot of things, but the misting can only do one thing. In this case, the misting wouldn't need metal, drawing the power directly from the spiritual realm.

The ritual magic shouldn't be influenced by perception or limited by guild, I think that certain guilds may have a preference for what types of magic they do, but what magic they use isn't written into the system by anything.

I don't think the ritual system should be able to do anything. I think that it should only be able to change things that are already there. Essentially it can transport anything on any of the realms and splice it together, move it, do anything.

This way we can have things like imbuing an object with power, or spiritually editing things and still be limited. I would say that the lowest it could go would be the atomic level. You can't create gold from lead, but you can move all the gold in a mine to one area.

You couldn't give make someone have innate magical power, but you could give them someone elses.

What do you guys think?

I think that Innates should still have to use fuel, but they would have a different source available to them (say, an Ascended). It would also be easier and more efficient for them, as well. 

Ritual magic, on the other hand, would be available to anyone who had the inclination to seek it out. It would replicate anything the Innate magic could do (and even more, potentially) but require a large investment of time to learn how to use it properly.

I think we might want to redefine how the symbols work; as they stand, it's very similar to Selish magic. 

[MacThorstenson]

3 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

I think that Innates should still have to use fuel, but they would have a different source available to them (say, an Ascended). It would also be easier and more efficient for them, as well. 

Ritual magic, on the other hand, would be available to anyone who had the inclination to seek it out. It would replicate anything the Innate magic could do (and even more, potentially) but require a large investment of time to learn how to use it properly.

I think we might want to redefine how the symbols work; as they stand, it's very similar to Selish magic. 

What if the innates fuel is energy made by their body? Like Eragon?

Definitely, but I think that ritual magic should be able to do nearly anything in regards to a  few simple constraints (like conservation of energy and mass need to be maintained and a few other things) as apposed to innate magic which only has the simpler functions of ritual magic.

Like if ritual magic can extract hydrogen and oxygen from any substance and turn it into water then control where the object moves, innate magic would only be able to create water from hydrogen and oxygen or another simpler function.

This function could be expanded by peoples perception of you, so like if you can make water, but enough people have faith that you can control it, then you can control it.

I had another idea, I think that if ritual magic can't create anything but can only move around, then we need some way for enchanting to work, because nothing is naturally enchanted.

One way this could be accomplished is via a second fuel. Life. Imagine this, due to the fact that life is able to grow and develop, you can take its spirit web and manipulate it, and transfer it onto an object that isn't alive. With the extra spirit web, you are able to modify it to be the way you want it.

As to how the symbols work, I think they should be changed a little. 

I also think the symbols need to change. I will look into that.

[Steel Inquisitive]

Here's an idea...... 

What if everyone in this world were born with a rune/symbol that they could use? I'm not saying everyone would have a unique symbol but rather that not all people can use all symbols. The ritual magic would therefore need a lot of different people to make it work. Let's say were using the English alphabet (just an example). I was born with the ability to use the letter "R" not so useful..... However if I got together with others, we could chain our letters together to form a word. I could combine My "R" with some other's "F" "I" "E" to make the word Fire. boom suddenly we ,working together, could light a fire. If there were people who were born with say an Exclamation mark they could add that to the others to make "fire!" A more powerful spell. Since we would be using symbols (Usually that means there's hundreds of symbols compared to the 26 we have) it would be harder to get dramatic results. 

Now some people would be born with multiple symbols making them more useful for rituals.... more variety. The Innates could be those who have enough letters to form their own word. They would have no need for others. Or the Innates could be something else completely. 

[xinoehp512]

You know, I'm seeing an interesting division here.

The natural magic of the world is very loose and undefined: people can believe anything, so almost anything can happen. Because it's so nebulous, however, it's hard to make it do anything reliably

The Ritual magic, however, is very structured. It can't do as much as Natural magic because of its rules, but what it can do, it does well. And it does it reliably.

Could we build off of this dichotomy? Maybe Innate magic could be some sort of combination of the two.

[MacThorstenson]

13 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Here's an idea...... 

What if everyone in this world were born with a rune/symbol that they could use? I'm not saying everyone would have a unique symbol but rather that not all people can use all symbols. The ritual magic would therefore need a lot of different people to make it work. Let's say were using the English alphabet (just an example). I was born with the ability to use the letter "R" not so useful..... However if I got together with others, we could chain our letters together to form a word. I could combine My "R" with some other's "F" "I" "E" to make the word Fire. boom suddenly we ,working together, could light a fire. If there were people who were born with say an Exclamation mark they could add that to the others to make "fire!" A more powerful spell. Since we would be using symbols (Usually that means there's hundreds of symbols compared to the 26 we have) it would be harder to get dramatic results. 

Now some people would be born with multiple symbols making them more useful for rituals.... more variety. The Innates could be those who have enough letters to form their own word. They would have no need for others. Or the Innates could be something else completely. 

While that's a cool idea, im not sure that that lends itself to the idea that anyone could access the entirety of the magic system, plus that would make it really hard to RP, because we would need to build a whole language/system from scratch in order to cast spells. With more general symbols we don't need to catalouge the whole 'alphabet' and invent a magic language.

I was thinking that the form of the symbol has to tie into the spell you want to cast. Here's an example of something that would be easily known, A basic combination.

This is what the layout is: 

O--O--O
      |
     O

In the middle circle the result would appear, in the bottom the fuel. In the sides the objects you want to combine.

A spell like this would do nothing but make a mixture of the two items, spacing the molecules out equally in them. Its good for instantly mixing solutions, thats about it.

With modifications or different structure you could do things like specify the spiritweb of one object is moved while the physical aspect of another is moved. This would be the basis for enchanting.

You could specify that atoms combine in specific ways. This would be the basis for how you get water. First you would need a spell for recognizing the presence of Oxygen and hydrogen gas. Then you would need to specify where the water would appear, then you would need to specify that the oxygen and hydrogen will split up and combine on an atomic level. Then you place the fuel and water is there.

Thought?

EDIT:

3 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

You know, I'm seeing an interesting division here.

The natural magic of the world is very loose and undefined: people can believe anything, so almost anything can happen. Because it's so nebulous, however, it's hard to make it do anything reliably

The Ritual magic, however, is very structured. It can't do as much as Natural magic because of its rules, but what it can do, it does well. And it does it reliably.

Could we build off of this dichotomy? Maybe Innate magic could be some sort of combination of the two.

We could say that people with innate power are able to describe the wants and desires via symbols.

Edited March 1, 2019 by MacThorstenson

[xinoehp512]

Sounds good to me! If there are symbols, they should be based off of geometrics instead of the landscape.

[MacThorstenson]

I imagine that this system would be very similar to the selish magics in that it is very algorithmic.

I also imagine that the placement of symbols would matter, which circle they are in and the such.

Im going to write up a complete spell for water in english, give me a little.