How do you think first half of SA will end?

[LerasiumMistborn]

Just now, Calderis said:

The Stormfather was a bondsmith spren before Honor's death, and he existed in some form before even the Shattering as he is the source of stormlight on Roshar. 

He's a spren, like all the others. Just special. 

Yes...but he changed after Honor died, right? Now he's not just a spren right now, but splinter of Honor. He's more sane and powerful now than he was pre-Shattering, and I think, this is because he merged with the soul of Honor's Vessel. What I wanted to say it that I don't think the Starmfather may Ascend and become Honor's new Vessel and that he's an example of Splinter gaining sentience after Shard's "death". Though I don't understand what's the purpose of the Stormfather within the story and why Dalinar has this spren. He seems pretty useless and only Bondsmith power Dalinar has is google translate...Connection to Honor's remnant gives him nothing, no benefits...nothing. I don't get why it's even exist.

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Yes...but he changed after Honor died, right? Now he's not just a spren right now, but splinter of Honor.

He should have been a Splinter of Honor for as long as there has been an Honor. All Investiture was delineated at the Shattering. If he was changed in that regard, it would have been by Tanavast while he still lived and wielded the power. 

24 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

He's more sane and powerful now than he was pre-Shattering, and I think, this is because he merged with the soul of Honor's Vessel.

I don't think that it necessarily made him more powerful. What he absorbed was the CS of the Human (or dragon, or Sho Del) vessel of Honor. All that he should have gained from that is Connection to the Shard. 

24 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Though I don't understand what's the purpose of the Stormfather within the story and why Dalinar has this spren. He seems pretty useless and only Bondsmith power Dalinar has is google translate...Connection to Honor's remnant gives him nothing, no benefits...nothing. I don't get why it's even exist.

All of this is precisely why I think what I do. Dalinar's power set is far more than just translation. He forges bonds. He creates Connections. Just like he was able to restore the Physical state of the Temple of Talenelat in Thaylen city, and created the perpendicularity, he can bind things together... And he has a connection to the entirety of the Splintered Shard of Honor. 

He's already, per Odium, Ascended once. I think once he has better control of his powers, a better understanding, he can draw on a piece of Honor via the Connection the Stormfather provides to reforge it... And then use that power to reach out to more. It would create a feedback loop, restoring the Connection of the Shard that has been Splintered, returning it to a cohesive whole.

The circumstances of The Stormfather, Dalinar and Tanavast are perfect enough that if it doesn't happen I'll be annoyed. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Calderis

[+Invocation]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The circumstances of The Stormfather, Dalinar and Tanavast are perfect enough that if it doesn't happen I'll be annoyed. 

Oh no I just had a horrible thought:

OB spoilers

Spoiler

What if Dalinar gets Elhokar'd right as he's about to complete the fusing of Honor's bits back together?

 

[LerasiumMistborn]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

He should have been a Splinter of Honor for as long as there has been an Honor. All Investiture was delineated at the Shattering. If he was changed in that regard, it would have been by Tanavast while he still lived and wielded the power. 

Hmm...spren, including the Stormfather existed before Adonalsium was Shattered. So, they're technically splinters of Adonalsium. Stormfather was spren of the storm back then. After Shattering, when Shards, Honor and Cultivation, arrived on Roshar...why did some spren became Honor-related spren and some - Cultivation-related? Why the Stormfather is Honor's spren and Nightwatcher is Cultivation's?

I understood though that the Stormfather always (after Honor arrived) was a splinter (though I don't understand why, if he existed even before Honor). And when Honor "died" he became Honor's Cognitive shadow. But you want to say that Tanavast-Honor tried to merge his soul with the Stormfather even before he died? Like, he knew he will die and, by doing so, tried to "save" part of himself in this spren?

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that it necessarily made him more powerful. What he absorbed was the CS of the Human (or dragon, or Sho Del) vessel of Honor. All that he should have gained from that is Connection to the Shard. 

Also, when the Stormfather remembers those days he always says "he wasn't fully alive" back then. So, I though he gained sanity after being merged with Tanavast. But maybe Tanavast somehow changed him intentionally when he was still alive...

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

All of this is precisely why I think what I do. Dalinar's power set is far more than just translation. He forges bonds. He creates Connections. Just like he was able to restore the Physical state of the Temple of Talenelat in Thaylen city, and created the perpendicularity, he can bind things together... And he has a connection to the entirety of the Splintered Shard of Honor. 

He's already, per Odium, Ascended once. I think once he has better control of his powers, a better understanding, he can draw on a piece of Honor via the Connection the Stormfather provides to reforge it... And then use that power to reach out to more. It would create a feedback loop, restoring the Connection of the Shard that has been Splintered, returning it to a cohesive whole.

The circumstances of The Stormfather, Dalinar and Tanavast are perfect enough that if it doesn't happen I'll be annoyed. 

This actually makes a lot of sense...Because if Dalinar with the Stormfather doesn't reforge Honor that the whole set up won't make any sense...Stormfather is completely useless. He doesn't want to help Dalinar. He doesn't even want to talk to him! Dalinar doesn't have "normal" powers. He's an insect compared with Odium? How he even supposed to deal with Odium? All these talks about Bondsmith powers, about Dalinar being special due to Connection to Honor's remnants. It didn't provide him any benefit yet. I though all these special circumstances (Dalinar as a Bondsmith, Stormfather as Honor's Shadow, their Connection to the Shard) are set up for Honor's reviving. Because why even give Dalinar Honor's powers if it means...nothing? And if it means nothing, I absolutely agree with you, it will be very, very annoying, disappointing, and feel like a broken promise. Because you don't tease something like this if it means nothing.

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar's power set is far more than just translation. He forges bonds. He creates Connections. Just like he was able to restore the Physical state of the Temple of Talenelat in Thaylen city

Oh...I though he used that power of Stonewards (Dalinar should have the same Surge) that allows to "melt" stones. But now I recall...Dalinar heard voices of spren in the stones, so now I think he restored it's Connection. You're right.

6 hours ago, Invocation said:

Oh no I just had a horrible thought:

OB spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

What if Dalinar gets Elhokar'd right as he's about to complete the fusing of Honor's bits back together?

 

Nah, I think Sanderson is going to waste Dalinar. At least people understand that this is not good treatment of the character and will be extremely disappointed if it happens. That's not what people wants/expects. It's just...wrong.

[Inky]

My theory is that High-Oath Dalinar can use Spiritual Adhesion to slam Investiture together, and he'll use that to destroy the Fused and/or Everstorm. (My half-joke of a theory is he'll smash all the Fused into a ball and throw it at Nightblood)

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Hmm...spren, including the Stormfather existed before Adonalsium was Shattered. So, they're technically splinters of Adonalsium. Stormfather was spren of the storm back then. After Shattering, when Shards, Honor and Cultivation, arrived on Roshar...why did some spren became Honor-related spren and some - Cultivation-related? Why the Stormfather is Honor's spren and Nightwatcher is Cultivation's? I understood though that the Stormfather always (after Honor arrived) was a splinter (though I don't understand why, if he existed even before Honor).

Having existed pre-shattering, it wouldnt have happened when the shards arrived on Roshar, it would have happened as soon as Adonalsium was shattered.  At the moment of the Shattering, all investiture Cosmere-wide was allocated to one of the shards; it just means that pre-shattering the Stormfather was made of Adonalsium's more 'honorable' flaovred investiture, while the Nitchwatcher had a more of a cultivation-y leaning.  They would have been a little different (because it was traumatic for the whole cosmere), and may not have been the top-tier spren we see before Honor and Cultivation showed up and Invested a disproportionate amount of their specific investiture in the planet.  I think it likely that there are other spren on Roshar that would have gotten boosted to god-tier if a different set of shards had arrived; maybe Ruin's Investment would have supercharged a leader of the Ashspren, for example. 

1 hour ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

And when Honor "died" he became Honor's Cognitive shadow. But you want to say that Tanavast-Honor tried to merge his soul with the Stormfather even before he died? Like, he knew he will die and, by doing so, tried to "save" part of himself in this spren?

Yup, Tanavast anticipated his demise and was taking steps to prepare for it.  This included granting the Stormfather the ability to birth/create new spren (of which Syl was one of the first) as well as preparing the Visions to be sent to future Bondsmith candidates.  We dont know how or why, but there was a period where Honor was "dying", which he knew, and being a shard he was able to perceive at least some of the future to prepare.  Though for what it's worth, his behavior was also changing, in that he'd previously supported the radiants and convinced them that their cause was the righteous one any time they'd learned the truth of their migration, but with the last generation he instead "raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquil Halls.  Honor...promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar" (OB. Ch 113)

1 hour ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Also, when the Stormfather remembers those days he always says "he wasn't fully alive" back then. So, I though he gained sanity after being merged with Tanavast. But maybe Tanavast somehow changed him intentionally when he was still alive...

His words were that he was "not fully awake, I was but the Spren of the Storm.  Then I was like a child.  Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god" (OB Ch. 113), which I took to mean that being merged with the ghost of a human (or dragon or sho-dal, we dont really know) changed his perspective from the more skewed and primal mentality of a Force of Nature to something more like a mortal's.  It's the reason he said he hated them before but since has started to understand where they were coming from.  He said he could "Understand them as I never did before", that where before he'd just blamed them for their broken Oaths and weakness, now he understood that they were trying to protect Roshar from themselves.

 

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

His words were that he was "not fully awake, I was but the Spren of the Storm.  Then I was like a child.  Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god" (OB Ch. 113), which I took to mean that being merged with the ghost of a human (or dragon or sho-dal, we dont really know) changed his perspective from the more skewed and primal mentality of a Force of Nature to something more like a mortal's.  It's the reason he said he hated them before but since has started to understand where they were coming from.  He said he could "Understand them as I never did before", that where before he'd just blamed them for their broken Oaths and weakness, now he understood that they were trying to protect Roshar from themselves.

He does in another conversation when he sees Ash and Taln. 

"I know them from long, long ago. Memories of days when I did not fully live." Ch. 119 

I'm not sure if that proves or disproves anything. He was changed several times by Honor

1) when Honor arrived and decided he wanted to ride the storms. Nightwatcher and Stormfather predate H&C, but they adopted them. The highstorms were already magical on roshar pre-shattering and spren existed pre-shattering.  Stormfather / Nightwatcher were parallel entities until Honor's death. Cultivation calls Nightwatcher "child" and Nightwatcher her calls Cultivation mother. I think it's safe to assume Honor - Stormfather had a similar relationship. 

This point isn't completely proven in text, but here is my support.

"Odium rides the very winds, like the enemy once did.: OB I-6

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e167

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/64/#e898

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e9206

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8624

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176/#e8491

 

2) Before Honor's death Stormfather began making Honorspren, honor had been doing that previously

"Yes, he made some of us. Made me" - OB Ch. 10 Syl discussing Stormfather. He made some, not all Honorspren. Syl is the youngest spren that's not dead. Her radiant fought and died normally pre-recreance and Honor was not fully dead until after the recreance. 

3) Honor dies and Stormfather absorbed his CS. Somewhere around here Tanavast also uploaded the visions and bound the Stormfather to show them to people. 

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[Lord of the Dark Lands]

Unrealistic scenarios: Everyone is redeemed and lives happily ever after and odium is gone. OR   Everyone unites under one banner, kills odium, and figure out how to make rockets to go to Ashyn and Damnation (cool, right).

Realistic scenario: Old characters (Dalinar, Taravangian, maybe Jasnah) and Evil characters (Odium, Taravangian) Die. Moash is redeemed and everyone else lives kinda happily ever after until a new baddie comes along to make the back 5 interesting.

[Inky]

I don't think Odium will be gone in the back half 

[Scion of the Mists]

On 3/1/2019 at 0:35 AM, LerasiumMistborn said:

This is true, but I think, "Shard power without Vessel can gain sentience on it's own" already happened...This is Stormfather. He's a splinter of honor that gained sentience after Honor's death (presumably by merging with Tanavast's soul). I doubt he may Ascend, and even if he could, we know that Cognitive Shadows (And Stormfather is Honor's Cognitive Shadow) can't be normal (full) Shard Vessels. Because Shard should piercing all three realms, and Cognitive Shadows (well, most of them) don't have physical bodies, so they don't Connected to physical realm.

I suppose, only human can be a full Vessel. If Honor's resurrection were to happen, one of the current characters should take the Shard. But I don't see anyone who could do it. That's why I think Honor won't come back...

A few points:

1. The Stormfather had to have been sentient long before Tanavast's death.  He was a Radiant spren.  
2. You are correct that Cognitive Shadows can't become Vessels.  
3. However, non-humans can be Vessels too.  In fact, we know that there was a Sho Del Vessel.  

[LerasiumMistborn]

6 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

A few points:

1. The Stormfather had to have been sentient long before Tanavast's death.  He was a Radiant spren.  
2. You are correct that Cognitive Shadows can't become Vessels.  
3. However, non-humans can be Vessels too.  In fact, we know that there was a Sho Del Vessel.  

1.He was sentient, but I think it's not impossible to gain even more sentience. Like, he used to have spren level of sentience, but changed even more after becoming Honor's CS.

3.Yeah, I read it somewhere. I don't know what Sho Del is...but I recall I read somewhere that original Shard Vessels weren't all humans. There were three races on Yolen, one non-human, and some of them became Vessels. It probably means Parshendi can Ascend too. Maybe Venli...as Honor/Odium (or just Odium), as she's both Voidbringer and Radiant Knight.

[CrazyRioter]

3 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

1.He was sentient, but I think it's not impossible to gain even more sentience. Like, he used to have spren level of sentience, but changed even more after becoming Honor's CS.

3.Yeah, I read it somewhere. I don't know what Sho Del is...but I recall I read somewhere that original Shard Vessels weren't all humans. There were three races on Yolen, one non-human, and some of them became Vessels. It probably means Parshendi can Ascend too. Maybe Venli...as Honor/Odium (or just Odium), as she's both Voidbringer and Radiant Knight.

There were (or are) actually two non-human races on Yolen, dragons and the Sho Del.

It would be cool to see a singer Ascend actually.

Edited March 3, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[+Invocation]

10 hours ago, Inky said:

I don't think Odium will be gone in the back half 

Odium will be there, that's not a question. The question is if it'll still be Rayse as the Vessel.

[teknopathetic]

I am fairly certain Roshar will be destroyed at some point in the series, and the Rosharians will be refugees (likely Nalthas). The series is about transitions like that, and thematically and structurally I’m pretty sure this is inevitable. 

I think we have pretty good confirmation of this as the Iriali have a prophecy that they will need to do more migrations off of worlds, so likely that will be in the series. We know the ending of the series is in book 1 or 2 somewhere, so the vision of Roahar being destroyed is a fairly good bet. Also, certain series plots are off the table since Brandon has already done them with other worlds. We need to see a shard go down, and sorry Roshar, but that’s probably your shard (be that Odium, Cultivation, or both). 

Nalthis has been described as a prequel book, and that’s never sat right with me. Nightblood isn’t important enough to need an entire book. But, the people of Roshar trying to get refugee status on Nalthis would be quite an interesting connection and would make Vivenna and Vashar’s political connections quite relevant. Also, which world is confirmed to have a customs agency...

Now likely this would happen book 9 or 10, but book 5 would be extremely interesting and would give us 5 books dealing with world hopping, realmatics, refugee crises, magic shifts, guilt, and all that. 

I think a book 5 end would be incredible, but I’m 95% sure Roshar goes down by the end of the series. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by teknopathetic

[Winds Alight]

36 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Nalthis has been described as a prequel book, and that’s never sat right with me. Nightblood isn’t important enough to need an entire book. But, the people of Roshar trying to get refugee status on Nalthis would be quite an interesting connection and would make Vivenna and Vashar’s political connections quite relevant. Also, which world is confirmed to have a customs agency...

We do have confirmation that Nightblood will be the book that (in part) bridges the gap between Warbreaker and V2's and Nightblood's travel to Roshar. The Warbreaker sequel will have absolutely no problem with filling a whole book with plot.

I don't quite see Roshar destroyed ... it would kinda be lame. Humans stormed up Ashyn, now it's Roshar's turn? No one did learn a thing from Ashyn's apocalypse, so let's blow up another world? Thank you, but no.

[teknopathetic]

23 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

I don't quite see Roshar destroyed ... it would kinda be lame. Humans stormed up Ashyn, now it's Roshar's turn? No one did learn a thing from Ashyn's apocalypse, so let's blow up another world? Thank you, but no.

I think one of the points of the book is that who is honrable and what is honorable is quite hard to define. I’m having Roshar go down, we can explore that in more interesting ways (imo). I’m not saying Roshar has to go down because of human ignorance mind you. Maybe Roshar goes off to destroy Odium, or Roshar goes off to protect Nalthis, or maybe maybe many different things.

But I don’t think “the heros save the day at the last minute and defeat an evil-ish shard” is a plot that Brandon would consider doing (for various spoiler reasons). It just doesn’t make sense that Brandon would visit that plot again.

What does make sense is to show a migration and the end of a shard. We need to see those things; we don’t need to see good guys save the day. 

[Inky]

Book 5 is going to be "A satisfying ending" according to Brandon and could end the whole series there if he wanted to

[Lidolas]

On 3/3/2019 at 8:51 AM, Winds Alight said:

I don't quite see Roshar destroyed ... it would kinda be lame. Humans stormed up Ashyn, now it's Roshar's turn? No one did learn a thing from Ashyn's apocalypse, so let's blow up another world? Thank you, but no.

Not that I think Roshar will be destroyed, but I think the only people around that have any type of memory or knowledge of Ashyn's destruction are mad, working for Odium, or both.  Maybe the Shin have passed on that knowledge, along with the Honorblades, but would the rest of Roshar listen to them?

[+Child of Hodor]

2 hours ago, Lidolas said:

Not that I think Roshar will be destroyed, but I think the only people around that have any type of memory or knowledge of Ashyn's destruction are mad, working for Odium, or both.  Maybe the Shin have passed on that knowledge, along with the Honorblades, but would the rest of Roshar listen to them?

Something is getting wrecked, maybe just Shinovar. It would suck if Roshar was wiped out completely. Whatever was done to shatter the plains will be used again. 

Quote

"A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears." tWoK Ch. 3 Epigraph 

People think this refers to Dalinar watching Kholinar in the Vision, but nobody was crying and there was no water. We have yet to see it. 

[Use the Falchion]

I totally forgot this last time, but one of my big theories was that Book 5 would end with the Highstorms dying out/Honor's investiture would be closed off from Roshar. Whether or not the Everstorm is still going I don't know. They'd have to find a new way to live for the time-skip, and then in Book 6 Lift (and potentially Renarin) would go on a journey to find a way to bring back the highstorms. I feel like it'd have more tie-ins to "the girl who stood up" but I'm not sure how yet.