Nightblade

Where did Kelsier get his new body?

36 posts in this topic

So I was rereading the Wax and Wayne books and was trying to figure out where kelsier got a new body. My best theory is that he switched bodies with spook when spook decided to die. Sorry about the format I'm doing this from my phone. 

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Your format seems fine to me. As to your question, we don't know. He has his scars from hathsin, but that could be from healing, a la kaladin's scars.

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We know he has a body, but we know that it's not Spook's. 

Quote

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

Personally, I don't think he stole a body at all... Just killed someone to steal their Connection to the Physical Realm. 

Others believe it's a Mistwraiths body, or one healed to have his scars through use of F-gold. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

We know he has a body, but we know that it's not Spook's. 

Personally, I don't think he stole a body at all... Just killed someone to steal their Connection to the Physical Realm. 

Others believe it's a Mistwraiths body, or one healed to have his scars through use of F-gold. 

If he did just spike himself to a mistwraith, then I wonder if there's a chance he's using his old bones. While I'll admit it's unlikely that bones would survive for 300 years without being sealed or buried, it's certainly not impossible. Frankly I prefer the idea that he's using a mistwraith body. It bothers me slightly less than the thought that he stole a body from somebody. As for the scars, those were very much a part of his cognitive view of himself, so they'll probably go wherever his mind goes.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Like how the Fused retain their carapace patterns.

 

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17 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

If he did just spike himself to a mistwraith, then I wonder if there's a chance he's using his old bones. While I'll admit it's unlikely that bones would survive for 300 years without being sealed or buried, it's certainly not impossible. Frankly I prefer the idea that he's using a mistwraith body. It bothers me slightly less than the thought that he stole a body from somebody. As for the scars, those were very much a part of his cognitive view of himself, so they'll probably go wherever his mind goes.

SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Like how the Fused retain their carapace patterns.

 

I think it would probably be more in character for him to murder someone for their body and use that. He probably wouldn't even feel bad about either. Kell needs therapy. Plus, didn't Harmony's Ascension get rid of all the mistwraiths?

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I think Cognitive Shadows can occupy the bodies of insane people, or people that allow them in. I'll post more later when I'm not at work.

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1 hour ago, Invocation said:

I think it would probably be more in character for him to murder someone for their body and use that. He probably wouldn't even feel bad about either. Kell needs therapy. Plus, didn't Harmony's Ascension get rid of all the mistwraiths?

I totally agree that he wouldn't mind stealing someones body, he'd easily justify his actions in his own mind and dismiss any guilt. I'm saying I personally would feel better if he used a mistwraith body. 

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32 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I totally agree that he wouldn't mind stealing someones body, he'd easily justify his actions in his own mind and dismiss any guilt. I'm saying I personally would feel better if he used a mistwraith body. 

Fair, fair.

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How do we think this works mechanically? Apologies, my understanding of hemalurgy isn't great. 

To steal someone's Connection he would need use a Duralumin spike unless he used Atium or Lerasium (is Connection a power or ability, neither?) which Brandon has coyly said no longer exist since Ati & Leras are dead. 

I'm less confused by the spike used, than on how many bodies he needs. Does he drive a spike through a living person into a corpse or mistwraith body? Stealing connection and putting it into the other body that Kelsier somehow inhabits.

How does cognitive shadow Kelsier inhabit this new body? Is he connected to the spike and then, kind of like the Fused, Kelsier goes in and the soul of the person currently in the body goes out killing them?

Did he spike a living person and drive the spike into himself as a cognitive shadow and then a body formed for him / his cognitive shadow form was able to transfer to the physical realm because the spike gave his shadow Connection?

Edited by Child of Hodor
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2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

How do we think this works mechanically?

Well, for my theory, you'd take a duralumin spike and steal someone's Physical realm connection, and then place it into Kel in the Cognitive Realm. Then he steps through a perp like anyone else. 

Hemalurgy works in the Cognitive Realm. Whether that spoke was made and stolen from someone there worldhopping, or it was made in the Physical and transported to him shouldn't matter. 

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So as I said earlier, I believe that Cognitive Shadows are able to inhabit the bodies of the insane or the willing.

The easiest see proof of this in the Fused. The shadow of the Fused that wants to enter a new host waits in the Cognitive realm is able to enter the gem heart of a singer during the Everstorm. I think that the Singers are easier for a shadow to bond with because of their gem heart. This bypasses the need for the host to be insane and therefore have a "cracked" soul. Another piece of evidnece that is less clear is Taln's return. When he enters Kholinar he has bits of wood in his matted beard. This leads me to believe that he inhabited the body of an insane person that was living in the wild and was outside during a Highstorm (I'm assuming that a perpendicularity or other sort of realm merger is needed for the swap).

I also believe that Cognitive Shadows that have regained a physical body have a passive healing ability. My thinking here is that both the Fused & the Heralds look like themselves and are therefore using some kind of Investiture based healing that is making their bodies heal towards their Spiritual Ideal. When Moash meets Leshwi for the second time she has the same coloring as her previous body (this could also be explained by the other Fused selecting the right body for her, so there's that). Another example is that Ash recognizes Taln when she finds him in Thaylen City.

With all that in mind, I think that Kelsier had Spook lead either an insane person (criminally insane?) or an extremely devout Survivorist (maybe someone that was terminally ill?) to one of the perpendicularities on Scadrial and took control of their body (the stuff in parentheses is my personal moral justifications). The passive healing that I mentioned above would gradually change that body to match Kelsier's Spiritual Ideal and give him back his scars.

This theory also got me wondering about another Immortal with a mysterious ability to heal. Could Hoid be a Cognitive Shadow?

Anyway, have fun tearing down my dreams :P

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18 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

This theory also got me wondering about another Immortal with a mysterious ability to heal. Could Hoid be a Cognitive Shadow?

I believe there is was WOB stating that Hoid is not a Cognitive Shadow.

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26 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

So as I said earlier, I believe that Cognitive Shadows are able to inhabit the bodies of the insane or the willing.

The easiest see proof of this in the Fused. The shadow of the Fused that wants to enter a new host waits in the Cognitive realm is able to enter the gem heart of a singer during the Everstorm. I think that the Singers are easier for a shadow to bond with because of their gem heart. This bypasses the need for the host to be insane and therefore have a "cracked" soul. Another piece of evidnece that is less clear is Taln's return. When he enters Kholinar he has bits of wood in his matted beard. This leads me to believe that he inhabited the body of an insane person that was living in the wild and was outside during a Highstorm (I'm assuming that a perpendicularity or other sort of realm merger is needed for the swap).

I also believe that Cognitive Shadows that have regained a physical body have a passive healing ability. My thinking here is that both the Fused & the Heralds look like themselves and are therefore using some kind of Investiture based healing that is making their bodies heal towards their Spiritual Ideal. When Moash meets Leshwi for the second time she has the same coloring as her previous body (this could also be explained by the other Fused selecting the right body for her, so there's that). Another example is that Ash recognizes Taln when she finds him in Thaylen City.

With all that in mind, I think that Kelsier had Spook lead either an insane person (criminally insane?) or an extremely devout Survivorist (maybe someone that was terminally ill?) to one of the perpendicularities on Scadrial and took control of their body (the stuff in parentheses is my personal moral justifications). The passive healing that I mentioned above would gradually change that body to match Kelsier's Spiritual Ideal and give him back his scars.

This theory also got me wondering about another Immortal with a mysterious ability to heal. Could Hoid be a Cognitive Shadow?

Anyway, have fun tearing down my dreams :P

Even assuming this is a standard trait of cognitive shadows, singers are able to be possessed due to their gem hearts being willing to accept cognitive entities. It seem the death of the original singers results from the fact that a full cognitive shadows is "bigger" than a spren, and thus when it enters through the gemheart it displaces the original cognitive aspect. If that's the case, Kelseir would still need to find something that can act like a gemheart to allow his cognitive aspect to enter another person.

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@SwordNimiForPresident

The bodies of the Heralds are created completely upon their return. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Can a Returned be made from Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

How would you count the Heralds?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I haven't read much, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

In the Stormlight books, there is a set of people who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them. Would you count that as being Returned?

Or do you count Returned...What's your definition, right? You can create something that is Returned-like. But your definition of what is Returned and what is not, is going to be involved in that.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

That's why Taln's body was wet, just like the condensation on a freshly summoned shardblade. 

Edited by Calderis
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49 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@SwordNimiForPresident

The bodies of the Heralds are created completely upon their return. 

That's why Taln's body was wet, just like the condensation on a freshly summoned shardblade. 

That's both weird and gross. I guess he picked up the wood chips in the same place he grabbed the Shardblade. Either way, another theory foiled.

 

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I think that Kel just got together a bunch of Investiture and crafted a body for himself that way.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

I think that Kel just got together a bunch of Investiture and crafted a body for himself that way.

I don't think so. That would require a lot of Investiture, and I doubt that he'd be able to find enough Investiture for that without Harmony directly giving it to him, plus it would be a little hard to have gotten Harmony to have given him that much Investiture in time to do what we saw in Bands.

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Kel could have cheated or bargained his way there.

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I'd be willing to bet he incorporated himself into a spike, as we know you can spike Cognitive shadows, and was implanted into a mistwraith.  He is using his own skeleton.

 

But I'm not married to the idea.

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2 hours ago, Stark said:

and was implanted into a mistwraith.  He is using his own skeleton

Source plz.

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11 minutes ago, John203 said:

Source plz.

I think @Stark made it pretty clear that that was his theory, not a fact.  

 

2 hours ago, Stark said:

I'd be willing to bet he incorporated himself into a spike, as we know you can spike Cognitive shadows, and was implanted into a mistwraith.  He is using his own skeleton.

 

But I'm not married to the idea.

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I think he got it at Shadesmart. 

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48 minutes ago, Peet said:

I think he got it at Shadesmart.

Shadesmart...is that the Cosmere version of Walmart?

...Just kidding, but if we want to be specific here, I think Shadesmar is specifically Roshar's Cognitive Realm. I guess it's possible Kell could've found a body in the Cognitive Realm, like maybe the Ire.

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3 minutes ago, StormblessedSurvivor said:

Shadesmart...is that the Cosmere version of Walmart?

...Just kidding, but if we want to be specific here, I think Shadesmar is specifically Roshar's Cognitive Realm. I guess it's possible Kell could've found a body in the Cognitive Realm, like maybe the Ire.

Shadesmar is a Rosharan term... But it's a word Brandon has said jus refers to the Cognitive Realm as a whole. It will expand out, similar to how "Fabrial" is just going to mean magical device 

Quote

Questioner

So the Cognitive realm.  Is Shadesmar a Roshar specific term?

Brandon Sanderson

Shadesmar is Roshar specific term, but when I translate from what other people are saying in these books I just translate it to Shadesmar.  So for instance when Wit is talking about it he's going to call it Shadesmar.  He's just going to use the Roshar term. But no, Shadesmar  is what it's called there.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)
Quote

Chaim

I understand that although Shadesmar is a Rosharan term, Brandon sometimes uses it generically to refer to the Cognitive Realm. But I would not have expected Khriss to do the same (AU, Drominad system). Is that a mistake or deliberate?

Peter Ahlstrom

As far as I know, it is not a Rosharan term.

Chaim

My understanding came from several WoB, such as https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221-words-of-radiance-omaha-signing/#e7199 … and https://wob.coppermind.net/events/225-words-of-radiance-san-diego-signing/#e5814 … . While obviously not canon, can you clarify with Brandon?

Peter Ahlstrom

Eh, well the first quote actually answers the question. Whatever word people use throughout the cosmere, Brandon translates it as Shadesmar in the books. I still think the word is widely used though.

Chaim

I think that in the first quote when he says "these books" he is referring to Stormlight. Hence the reference to Wit, whose words are translated to Rosharan and Cognitive Realm is thus translated to Shadesmar. Have you found Shadesmar anywhere else in the cosmere?

Peter Ahlstrom

Well, clearly Khriss calls it that too. :)

General Twitter 2018 (Jan. 10, 2018)

 

Edited by Calderis
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54 minutes ago, Peet said:

I think he got it at Shadesmart. 

Wouldn't it be Vapormart for Scadrial, considering their CR is known as the Expanse of Vapors?

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