WoB on Dalinar

[CrazyRioter]

1 minute ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Yes, it bothers me. Because for everyone else Dalinar's death is just another "amazing story and satisfying conclusion", but for me it's a personal tragedy. Like a real loss of something dear to me. You can laugh at me, you can call me an idiot for feeling so strong for a fictional character, but this is how it is. And many people fell strongly for those characters. I read every day "I will stop reading the books if Kaladin dies", "I will riot if Kaladin dies", "I will kill myself, if Kaladin dies" together with endless complains about lack of Kaladin's page time (What??). 

So, for everyone Kaladin's death is a tragedy and end of the world. Dalinar's death is a satisfying conclusion. Kaladin needs to live to make a satisfying narrative, and Dalinar NEEDS to die to get satisfying conclusion. For, me it's NOT satisfying. I understand that he's not even a main character and very few people care for him, but I do care, and for me, his death is something more than another death of fictional character.

Yes, I'm an idiot, because I was stupid enough to believe Sanderson will make a book, where character like Dalinar would be allowed to have a narrative. Nope, he's just another minor background character, doomed to die. It was foolish to think otherwise. He's here, in this story, only to die and create a "moment". So people, who don't care for his character, but want "blood" will be happy and get satisfying narrative. So, for some idiots like me, it's not a good story at all. It's a loss. Real loss.

I don't think most people think that Dalinar's arc needs to end in him dying, just that it's possible for him to have a satisfying arc that ends in his death A fairly large number o people think Dalinar's arc is likely to end with him Ascending to reunite Honor's power (I am inclined towards this prediction myself).  And, for the record I also think Kaladin's arc could have a satisfying end that involves him dying, and I think the people who are complaining about him having less screen time are missing the point of how the series is structured. This is in spite of Kaladin being a  contender for my favourite character.   I'm not currently able to hazard a guess as to how common that viewpoint is.

For me it's not whether a character dies but how they die, even if I like a character very much and am sad they died, I can still feel satisfied if they die in a compelling and meaningful way. Lots of Brandon's deaths are like that. Like the already mentioned spoilers from Mistborn.

I also don't know why you think people don't care about Dalinar, he's a very well-liked character, especially post OB, based on what I have observed.

[Solant]

20 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Nope, he's just another minor background character, doomed to die.

I think Brandon should write a 400k word book focusing on him and his back story. 

Kidding aside, the only person insisting he is doomed to die is you.

[LerasiumMistborn]

3 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't think most people think that Dalinar's arc needs to end in him dying, just that it's possible for him to have a satisfying arc that ends in his death A fairly large number o people think Dalinar's arc is likely to end with him Ascending to reunite Honor's power (I am inclined towards this prediction myself).  And, for the record I also think Kaladin's arc could have a satisfying end that involves him dying, and I think the people who are complaining about him having less screen time are missing the point of how the series is structured. This is in spite of Kaladin being a  contender for my favourite character.   I'm not currently able to hazard a guess as to how common that viewpoint is.

For me it's not whether a character dies but how they die, even if I like a character very much and am sad they died, I can still feel satisfied if they die in a compelling and meaningful way. Lots of Brandon's deaths are like that. Like the already mentioned spoilers from Mistborn.

I also don't know why you think people don't care about Dalinar, he's a very well-liked character, especially post OB, based on what I have observed.

Majority of people don't invest themselves to fictional characters. Many people just enjoy plot twists including unexpected characters deaths. They don't care about those characters and their lives, they just enjoy guessing "who will die next" and enjoy "blood". People start care only when is happens with their favorite characters. The fact people say how amazing and satisfying Dalinar's death would be indicates that people don't really care about Dalinar as a...human. I swear, if he killed Kaladin, shitstorm would be so strong it would destroy this forum. Dalinar? Nobody cares about him, OR do care, but only about him as a plot device to provide an interesting story. Not for his life.

I'm just different. It was a mistake from my part though, as it brought me only pain. But for me, it's not satisfying at all. I just wanted Dalinar to live...

6 minutes ago, Solant said:

I think Brandon should write a 400k word book focusing on him and his back story. 

Well, he writes such books about Kaladin. Three books in a row. And fourth is coming. Because he's the main character, and not a minor side-kick like Dalinar.

[Calderis]

It's a story. I love the characters Brandon creates and, if people are reading Brandon for "blood" they've picked the wrong author. 

A story is the epitome of "Journey before Destination" though. It's not about how a character ends, but what happens along the way. 

Dalinar is every bit a main character as Kaladin is. And it's looking like his effect on the story is going to have a far grander scope than Kaladin's. 

If your so focused on where Dalinar ends, you'll miss the entire point of his journey. 

I'm sorry this is so hard for you... But I really think you may need to take a step back. It's fiction. It's meant to be enjoyed,and you've obviously reached a place that it just isn't enjoyable for you. 

[LerasiumMistborn]

9 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Was Eshonai set up as the "obvious" singer character? Yes.

Does that mean she was "supposed to be the main character, but Sanderson changed his mind halfway through and just threw her away"? No. 

Yes? Because Sanderson himself said he planned much bigger role for Eshonai and she was supposed to be a prominent character with on-going arc through the first half of the series, but then he changed his mind and replaced her with Venli?

When he wrote Words, he was grooming Eshonai for this role. When he changed his mind and threw her away, it made all build up from for meaningless. And entire Eshinai's narrative is a waste. If he does same with Dalinar, it will be another waste.

9 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Same with your views on Dalinar's future role.

What is the same? I said he most likely will be wasted for another "amazing plot twist" like Eshonai, instead of develop natural towards the right direction of his narrative.

9 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

I think you were hoping to ask something on the verge of: What is Dalinar's role in all future Stormlight books? When Brandon only talked about 4 & 5, you took that as confirmation that Dalinar would not appear in any other books. 

Yes, that's what I asked. I asked about Dalinar's role in the future books. I know, the series is ten books, it's not going to end with books 4 and 5. And Sanderson always says this is one series, not two. He already spoiled many things considering this series, like Lift survival, and some others. Nothing for Dalinar. Never. He never mentions Dalinar, never leaves any, even a tiny comment on him. Nothing. Because there's nothing to mention.

1 hour ago, Solant said:

I feel like we are glossing over the fact that OB was his focus book, so naturally he is going to have a greater presence there than any of the other books. It's how the first two books were written about their respective characters and it's what we can expect from the remaining books as well.

Other characters have equally big roles in all the books. Kaladin's word count in Words and Way of Kings and Shallan's in Words and Oathbringer is almost the same. The difference between Dalinar's word count in Oathbringer and Words (and book 4) is insane. He has five chapters. Five. And 30k words. No other character doesn't have such a small role in any book.

1 hour ago, Solant said:

I think Brandon should write a 400k word book focusing on him and his back story. 

I know, it's funny to laugh at me, I don't mind really, but there's no need to over-emphasized my words. There's a BIG difference between 400K words and Dalinar's 30K in Words. All I wanted is an equal treatment for all the character. I wanted Dalinar to have a prominent role, just like all other main characters. Why Kaladin is allowed to have 70-100k words in ALL the books? Why Dalinar isn't allowed to have more than 30k words in any book that isn't Oathbringer? Sanderson shouldn't consider him as one of the main characters. If he made it clear since the beginning that "Dalinar is a character for one book only, in all other books, he's a side character", I would know what to expect and I would never read those books. If he named this series Kaladin Archive, I would know what those books are about, and would never read them.

As if the fact Dalinar is the character for the first half of the series only, while all other characters have roles in all ten books (I THINK so) isn't enough...he isn't even allowed to have a bigger role in the first half.

 

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I pointed that out a few times, actually Yeah, it makes sense that he will only have the biggest role in his book. That's been the case with every character so far. They have one book where they have the most words, and then the others they have less.

Do you like Words of Radiance? Do you like that Dalinar has five chapters in it? Do you like that book 4 will be the same book with no Dalinar in it?

ALL characters have big roles in ALL the books. ALL of them, except for ONE Dalinar, whole role in any book, except for Oathbringer, is very, very small.

 

[RShara]

1 minute ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Do you like Words of Radiance? Do you like that Dalinar has five chapters in it? Do you like that book 4 will be the same book with no Dalinar in it?

ALL characters have big roles in ALL the books. ALL of them, except for ONE Dalinar, whole role in any book, except for Oathbringer, is very, very small.

Again: Brandon said Dalinar would have a lesser role in Dalinar, not a "very very small" one. That's your interpretation, not what Brandon said. And he had more words in WoK than Shallan.

Edited February 27, 2019 by RShara

[Solant]

10 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

18 minutes ago, Solant said:

I think Brandon should write a 400k word book focusing on him and his back story. 

Well, he writes such books about Kaladin. Three books in a row. And fourth is coming. Because he's the main character, and not a minor side-kick like Dalinar.

He wrote one about Kaladin, then one about Shallan, then one about Dalinar. OB was literally all about Dalinar, and calling him a side kick is totally unfounded. The rest of the books will be about the other main characters, as has been stated since the beginning. 

21 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Majority of people don't invest themselves to fictional characters. Many people just enjoy plot twists including unexpected characters deaths. They don't care about those characters and their lives, they just enjoy guessing "who will die next" and enjoy "blood". People start care only when is happens with their favorite characters. The fact people say how amazing and satisfying Dalinar's death would be indicates that people don't really care about Dalinar as a...human. I swear, if he killed Kaladin, shitstorm would be so strong it would destroy this forum. Dalinar? Nobody cares about him, OR do care, but only about him as a plot device to provide an interesting story. Not for his life.

I'm just different. It was a mistake from my part though, as it brought me only pain. But for me, it's not satisfying at all. I just wanted Dalinar to live...

Where to begin with this one? I wrote a long reply to this, but I've decided instead to keep it short. I've read several different members on multiple threads trying to give you evidence in support of better outcomes than the one you have decided absolutely has to happen. Why? Because even though they may or may not be as invested in the same character you are, they have their own characters they are rooting for, and may even share the same kind of distress for their favorites for one reason or another. They are trying to make you feel better and I think it is unkind to dismiss that so readily.

Nobody is calling for blood, or demanding anyone be killed off to push the narrative. Nobody has said Dalinar has to die except you. Plenty of people invest in characters just as much as you. All characters are plot devices, because they are characters in a book. The author himself told you in a private message that you are reading too far into it. Read that last line again.

[LerasiumMistborn]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

A story is the epitome of "Journey before Destination" though. It's not about how a character ends, but what happens along the way. 

Dalinar is every bit a main character as Kaladin is. And it's looking like his effect on the story is going to have a far grander scope than Kaladin's. 

If your so focused on where Dalinar ends, you'll miss the entire point of his journey. 

I'm sorry this is so hard for you... But I really think you may need to take a step back. It's fiction. It's meant to be enjoyed,and you've obviously reached a place that it just isn't enjoyable for you. 

But Journey before Destination should be true for all the characters. And I think all the characters will get their happy endings, except for Dalinar. Why their journey ends with happy endings, and Dalinar's journey ends with him being killed? That is unfair. Why couldn't Dalinar get more positive conclusion?

3 minutes ago, RShara said:

Again: Brandon said Dalinar would have a lesser role in Dalinar, not a "very very small" one.

He said the same about Words.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

But Journey before Destination should be true for all the characters. And I think all the characters will get their happy endings, except for Dalinar. Why their journey ends with happy endings, and Dalinar's journey ends with him being killed? That is unfair. Why couldn't Dalinar get more positive conclusion?

This is both an assumption, and misses the point. Even a death can be a positive ending, and if it's not why would he be alone? 

You're fixated on a very negative space. For your own well being, I seriously think you should step back from this. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Calderis

[RShara]

3 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

He said the same about Words.

1. No, he didn't.

2. Even if he did (which he didn't) that doesn't mean Dalinar will have the same small word count. Again, that is your interpretation, not what he said.

[equinox]

26 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

He already spoiled many things considering this series, like Lift survival, and some others. Nothing for Dalinar. Never. He never mentions Dalinar, never leaves any, even a tiny comment on him. Nothing. Because there's nothing to mention

What exactly did Brandon Sanderson spoil about the back five books? He is quite close mouthed in my opinion. Lift grows up. Ok. That's spoilerish. But also obvious. She needs to grow up - something she never thought would happen due to her visit to the Nightwatcher. Her book will be #6. Chances are very high she survives till then. Afterwards? No one knows.

It fascinates me (in a bit disturbing way) that this discussion is still going on. I think many here try to help @LerasiumMistborn by showing that the too narrow perspective on WoB regarding Dalinar is flawed. But that's not helping. So what would? We can't convince you @LerasiumMistborn that the "waste of Dalinar Kholin" is not set in stone. You won't convince us that SA is unreadable due to Dalinar's imminent death. What is your goal in this discussion? Warning Dalinar fans? Or maybe seeking (deep down) a reason to still read on? (my question is meant totally serious, not to mock you)

[Jace21]

31 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Yes? Because Sanderson himself said he planned much bigger role for Eshonai and she was supposed to be a prominent character with on-going arc through the first half of the series, but then he changed his mind and replaced her with Venli?

When he wrote Words, he was grooming Eshonai for this role. When he changed his mind and threw her away, it made all build up from for meaningless. And entire Eshinai's narrative is a waste. If he does same with Dalinar, it will be another waste.

This is, once again, your opinion. There is precisely one WoB I know of that mentions when Eshonai was replaced by Venli and it is ambiguous as to when it happened. It could have happened during the writing of Oathbringer, or it could have happened during the planning process for the entire series. Either way, Brandon switched it because he think Venli will make a better story. You may not like that storyline has worked out so far, but we haven't had Eshonai's flashbacks or much time on Venli. So the arc isn't over, even if it was a last minute change, which I personally doubt.

36 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

What is the same? I said he most likely will be wasted for another "amazing plot twist" like Eshonai, instead of develop natural towards the right direction of his narrative.

You misunderstood. I was not querying what you said, others have already done that. I was simply pointing out another example of you stating your opinion as fact. We do not know anything about Eshonai/Venli's role in any future books or what was originally planned. So you saying we do is opinion, not fact.

38 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

He already spoiled many things considering this series, like Lift survival, and some others. Nothing for Dalinar. Never. He never mentions Dalinar, never leaves any, even a tiny comment on him. Nothing. Because there's nothing to mention.

Name some. Name things he has spoiled, aside from Lift's survival. Since there are "many", I must have missed them all. I'll wait.

42 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Do you like Words of Radiance? Do you like that Dalinar has five chapters in it? Do you like that book 4 will be the same book with no Dalinar in it?

ALL characters have big roles in ALL the books. ALL of them, except for ONE Dalinar, whole role in any book, except for Oathbringer, is very, very small.

Yes I do like WoR. And yes, Dalinar is my favourite character in SA. Word count =/= role in the story. Do I like Dalinar's PoV? Of course. Was I ok with less PoV if we see him through others' eyes and he has a large role? Also yes.

And the last line in the above quote is exactly what people have been telling you about. You have stated as fact what people earlier in the thread have repeatedly shown is opinion. 

We know nothing about any characters roles in the back 5 and very little about the front 5. Dalinar will have a smaller role in 5 than 3, and smaller in 4 than 5. How much smaller each of those roles are we don't know. So please stop saying it as if you did.

I am ducking out of this thread now, no headway is being made. @LerasiumMistborn, I'm sorry you feel the way you do about Dalinar's future, I hope that if you ever do decide to finish the series, you aren't too disappointed if you were wrong.

[LerasiumMistborn]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is both an assumption, and misses the point. Even a death can be a positive ending, and if it's not why would he be alone? 

You're fixated on a very negative space. For your own well being, I seriously think you should step back from this. 

For others (I mean, other readers), it can be, but not for me. I just think if the author writes such a tragic stories/backstories for his characters, it should ended on a positive note. Not death...death can't be positive ending...And he wrote very, very sad and tragic story for Dalinar. Just imagine those flashbacks in book 5, which ends...sigh, I THINK ends with Dalinar dying. Those flashbacks are heart-wrenching itself, but Oathbringer has more or less positive conclusion to make it easier to swallow. Just imagine those flashback story and the ending with Dalinar dying...this would be so sad...That's why I think it NEEDED sort of positive conclusion. By the way, Ascending isn't a positive conclusion too, it's pretty sad, and I don't like it. But at least it's better than death.

Other characters can't die. I just don't see them dying. It always happens with those (characters) I love. I'm "cursed".

"I seriously think you should step back from this." - I can't.

32 minutes ago, RShara said:

1. No, he didn't.

He did say it. He said "Words has a little less Dalinar (than Way)". "A little less" means 30K vs 90k. Minus 60K. Now imagine what book 4 is, if it's "a lot lees", not even "a little less". Anyway, 20K, 30K, it doesn't matter. All variants are awful.

 

44 minutes ago, Solant said:

He wrote one about Kaladin, then one about Shallan, then one about Dalinar. OB was literally all about Dalinar, and calling him a side kick is totally unfounded. The rest of the books will be about the other main characters, as has been stated since the beginning. 

Way of Kings is about Kaladin AND Dalinar AND Shallan. Words is about Kaladin and Shallan only. Oathbringer is about Dalinar AND Kaladin and Shallan. Hoe Oathbringer is ALL about Dalinar if Shallan has more chapters and higher word count in present day narrative than him?

47 minutes ago, Solant said:

they have their own characters they are rooting for, and may even share the same kind of distress for their favorites for one reason or another.

Exactly...Another person, for example, does care about Shallan and doesn't care about Dalinar. I don't care about Shallan, and care much about Dalinar. I would never said that Shallan's death would be amazing, positive and satisfying conclusion. It's not. Not for the person who doesn't want her to die. People, who do care about characters, don't care if it's satisfying or not. They just wanted those characters to live. And I needed Dalinar to be alive...

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

He did say it. He said "Words has a little less Dalinar (than Way)". "A little less" means 30K vs 90k. Minus 60K. Now imagine what book 4 is, if it's "a lot lees", not even "a little less". Anyway, 20K, 30K, it doesn't matter. All variants are awful.

Given previous discussions, I'm going to want to see exactly what he said.

[Steel Inquisitive]

meanwhile, I'm still waiting for Szeth...... Sigh.

Dalinar is by far my favorite character. he has always been at the forefront of world events and is the biggest plot pusher in the series. I don't think he'll die, but if this is causing real mental anguish, then it is time to step back. My advice would be to wait and read reviews after the books come out before making the decision to read or not read the next books.

[LerasiumMistborn]

7 hours ago, equinox said:

What exactly did Brandon Sanderson spoil about the back five books? He is quite close mouthed in my opinion. Lift grows up. Ok. That's spoilerish.

 

6 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Name some. Name things he has spoiled, aside from Lift's survival. Since there are "many", I must have missed them all. I'll wait.

He did say that he removed Jasnah's and Taln's present day narrative from original version of Way of Kings into the second half. It means that they have present day narrative. It means they survive into the second half. I also posted a WoB here, on a previous page, where he says that all those five characters are main characters for the second half of the series. Not flashback characters, but main characters.

7 hours ago, equinox said:

What is your goal in this discussion? Warning Dalinar fans? Or maybe seeking (deep down) a reason to still read on? (my question is meant totally serious, not to mock you)

I was asked to post a quote I did it. Yeah, I think people, who expect some grand plans for Dalinar's amazing future should stop expecting it. Otherwise they will be very disappointed when it won't happen. Maybe I just wanted to share. It's really painful and heart-breaking for me. Seriously. 

6 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Yes I do like WoR. And yes, Dalinar is my favourite character in SA. Word count =/= role in the story. Do I like Dalinar's PoV? Of course. Was I ok with less PoV if we see him through others' eyes and he has a large role? Also yes.

Words doesn't has less Dalinar's povs. It has no Dalinar at all. He's absent for 800 pages. He has five chapters. Sanderson just threw him away from this book.

 

6 hours ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Dalinar is by far my favorite character. he has always been at the forefront of world events and is the biggest plot pusher in the series. I don't think he'll die, but if this is causing real mental anguish, then it is time to step back. My advice would be to wait and read reviews after the books come out before making the decision to read or not read the next books.

As if it would help...If I read book reviews, I will know that Dalinar will die. Knowing it is painful enough. I mean, I don't need to read it in the book to cry for it...I'm sure he'll die, right now, and it is THAT painful.

 

6 hours ago, RShara said:

Given previous discussions, I'm going to want to see exactly what he said.

I will find it soon.

[Chaos]

Thank you for sharing the WoBs. I think everyone has effectively come to their opinions, and no one will budge. I think we should close this topic before this spins in circles more. Is that okay with you?

I completely understand your disappointment, and it is possible, but not guaranteed.

[Solant]

For the fourth time tonight, nobody has killed him except for you in your head. 

Brandon said you read to far into his answer. To clarify, he's telling you that your assumptions are probably wrong. I don't know how else to say it.  If the author can't convince you, then surely there's nothing I or anyone else can say about it that you would accept.

If this conversation was happening anywhere else, I would assume at this point you were trolling us.

Don't @  me. Don't quote me.  I'm done with this thread and trying to help.

[Chaos]

I'm going to close this topic as tensions seem to be rising rapidly. This thread has run its course. Please feel free to PM me with concerns.

If you're off from reading the rest of Stormlight, I wish you all the best, but you are welcome here any time.