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WoB on Dalinar


LerasiumMistborn

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12 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

That means he has no "moments" in the second half of the series and that means his role within the series will end in book 5

There is an importantly inaccurate assumption, which Brandon himself said was inaccurate in the second part of your PM thread, which has been shared with the moderation team. You should share it, as it directly addresses this.

It is very clear to me that Brandon simply is not going to talk about our main characters in the back five.

It is a perfectly valid point of view to suspect Dalinar would die. I think Kaladin could also die. Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin could all die, if book five is a bloodbath, perhaps. However, you stating that "Sanderson said Dalinar has "moments" only in books 4 and 5 and that's it. That means he has no "moments" in the second half of the series and that means his role within the series will end in book 5."

The second sentence does not logically follow from the first. The first sentence does not guarantee the second. It could, but does not need to.

It is perfectly fine for you to be disappointed with Dalinar's smaller word count, but I am excited to read the powerful scenes for him.

(Please post the second thing Brandon said. It is important.)

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33 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I think Kaladin could also die.

No, because Sanderson said he will be an important character for the whole series.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/343-pats-fantasy-hotlist-interview/#e10208

13 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin could all die, if book five is a bloodbath, perhaps.

He said that only one of them will die.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12300

17 minutes ago, Chaos said:

It is very clear to me that Brandon simply is not going to talk about our main characters in the back five.

So, he confirmed Kaladin's survival. He said that only one character will die. Then, when I pointed on it, he's saying no, no, it doesn't mean anything. The thing is, he already spoiled almost everything. He spoiled that Odium will survive into the second half. He spoiled who will survive and who won't. Odium's survival means that the whole thing with Desolations will continue in the second half. It also means that Roshar won't be destroyed. It also means many more things that shouldn't be revealed yet and that makes reading of the next two books completely meaningless. 

I honestly can't understand Sanderson at all. On the same signing he's like: "I can't promise that Lift will be alive in book 6", and then: "Lift in going to be an adult in book 6". 

If he wanted to keep the second half in a secret than he shouldn't leave any comments about it at all. Because "I confirmed Lift survival, but that doesn't mean she will survive", "I confirmed Kaladin survival, but it doesn't mean he won't die in book 5", and "I confirmed Dalinar's death, but it doesn't mean he will die" make absolutely no sense for me.

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The first WoB you cite is from 2010. It is clear at this stage that Kaladin is not getting a second book. Additionally, a character can be important for the series and still die... I can sure think of an example in Mistborn that fits the bill. 

The second WoB you cite does not say that only one of them will die: 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
I thought there was only going to be four books but then I heard you saying it was going to be ten, so...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
It's going to be ten but two sets of five. So book five will give you an ending.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
The end of the Voidbringers?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Well... you'll have to see how it goes, but it's kind of the main arc that I've set up for this series.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So, are all of the characters, Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, are they going to be in the second series?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
There will be, those who survive will be in the second one and still kind of be main characters even though they won't get flashback sequences. But it's going to be ten years later, so it's going to be something a little different. But don't expect their character arcs to be complete even if the kind of plot setup that I've started will be

That's just... not what it says. It definitely, 100% does not say that only one character dies. This is objectively not what it says. Maybe there's another one, but it certainly isn't these, and I don't remember anything like that.

I find your interpretations of these WoBs to be critically flawed.

Did anyone think Odium was going to be stopped book five? I don't really think that's a spoiler, but it's fine if you feel differently. To me, that's like saying there will be Surges in the back five. 

EDIT: One more thing.

"I confirmed Dalinar's death, but it doesn't mean he will die"

He did not say this. You are interpreting it. He tried to correct you in the second PM. This statement here is not what he said. Please stop stating things as fact when they are definitively not facts.

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20 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

No, because Sanderson said he will be an important character for the whole series.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/343-pats-fantasy-hotlist-interview/#e10208

He said that only one of them will die.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377-idaho-falls-signing/#e12300

So, he confirmed Kaladin's survival. He said that only one character will die. Then, when I pointed on it, he's saying no, no, it doesn't mean anything. The thing is, he already spoiled almost everything. He spoiled that Odium will survive into the second half. He spoiled who will survive and who won't. Odium's survival means that the whole thing with Desolations will continue in the second half. It also means that Roshar won't be destroyed. It also means many more things that shouldn't be revealed yet and that makes reading of the next two books completely meaningless. 

I honestly can't understand Sanderson at all. On the same signing he's like: "I can't promise that Lift will be alive in book 6", and then: "Lift in going to be an adult in book 6". 

If he wanted to keep the second half in a secret than he shouldn't leave any comments about it at all. Because "I confirmed Lift survival, but that doesn't mean she will survive", "I confirmed Kaladin survival, but it doesn't mean he won't die in book 5", and "I confirmed Dalinar's death, but it doesn't mean he will die" make absolutely no sense for me.

That first interview is from 2010, almost 10 years ago. A lot has changed since then, so if you could get an update whether that's still the plan, that'd be a good idea. In addition, Kaladin being *important* in the second half doesn't mean that he'll be *alive* in the second half. An Order of Windrunners dedicated to his memory would count just as much.

Quote

 

Ok, I will paraphrase myself. I knew Dalinar was going to die since the very beginning. My thoughts based not only on this WoB (though this WoB convinced my I was right too), but on combination of various things. I was thinking he's going to die long before I got this message.

What he says? I asked him about Dalinar's future within the series. He answered: small role in book 4 and a little bigger role in book 5. That's it. I didn't add anything from myself, he said it himself.

What more can be asked? Dalinar staying prominent pov character with many chapters and screen time. Dalinar having role within the whole series, not only in the HALF of the series. As you're saying the entire series in 10 books. Sanderson said Dalinar has "moments" only in books 4 and 5 and that's it. That means he has no "moments" in the second half of the series and that means his role within the series will end in book 5.

And I don't care for "the most powerful and epic scene of Dalinar dying". I don't care...even if this is masterpiece of writing, I don't care. That's not what I wanted to read.

 

I'm sorry, but

Quote

small role in book 4 and a little bigger role in book 5

is not what Brandon said. He said, specifically, book 4 will be much smaller and book 5 will be greater than 4 but less than 3. Since this fits with the word count of the other characters, I really have to disagree on your interpretation.

In Brandon's follow up that you linked in the first thread:

LCJre5R.png

He says specifically that your interpretation isn't what he meant. And that specifically *any* of the current characters could still live or die.

I truly do understand your fear for Dalinar. I do share in it to a smaller degree. But we really really don't have any proof at all that Dalinar is going to have a minor, reduced, or limited role in the series, first or second part.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, I hope you understand that. I'm hoping that I can give you some hope for your favorite character and his continued importance to the series.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Chaos!

Edited by RShara
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4 minutes ago, Chaos said:

 The second WoB you cite does not say that only one of them will die: 

Why not? There're three characters. He says "those who will survive" and "they will have an arc". "They" is plural. He said someone will die. "They" means that two character are alive. One is dead.

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Did anyone think Odium was going to be stopped book five? 

Yes. I was thinking that Dalinar will kill him in book 5 and books 6-10 will deal with something else. For me, this is big spoiler. Dalinar/Odium confrontation was "core" narrative of the books so far. It also means, that this plotline will end with nothing. Dalinar won't kill Odium (IF Dalinar dies in 5 and Odium survives 5), and the whole narrative is just wasted. 

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They can be a singular person when you don't want to use a specific gender pronoun. Like, The Sibling is referred to as They, even though they're a singular entity.

Quote

There will be, those who survive will be in the second one and still kind of be main characters even though they won't get flashback sequences. But it's going to be ten years later, so it's going to be something a little different. But don't expect their character arcs to be complete even if the kind of plot setup that I've started will be

Also, he never says any specific person *will* die. Just that anyone *could*.

Edited by RShara
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Just now, LerasiumMistborn said:

Why not? There're three characters. He says "those who will survive" and "they will have an arc". "They" is plural. He said someone will die. "They" means that two character are alive. One is dead.

This is a miscomprehension. In English, native speakers use "they" to be vague and non-specific, meaning it is clear that Brandon is firmly not telling us anything. They can also mean singular. It is a gender neutral way of saying "someone". 

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Just now, LerasiumMistborn said:

Why not? There're three characters. He says "those who will survive" and "they will have an arc". "They" is plural. He said someone will die. "They" means that two character are alive. One is dead.

They can be singular or plural these days. Remember, he is saying these in long signing lines. It is not going to be stated with absolute precision. If you wanted to be vague, this is what I would also say. I can definitely see a scenario where Kaladin dies as well as Dalinar. 

You're certainly entitled to your opinion regarding Odium, but to me, the Prelude makes it very clear Odium and the Voidbringers are the thing for the entire series. 

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Just to be clear, Brandon didn't say Odium in his current form would survive:

2dark_22

RAFOed I'm sure, but you said you are planing 2 arcs of 5 books each in Stormlight Archive. Having read all of your published works (and some unpublished:)) I know your storytelling pace is astronomicaly quick. I'm positive you will end current desolation story in the first 5 books, since as I understod, other 5 books will be set in near future in SA universe. So I guess my question is; can you drop any hint will Odium survive to see 6th SA book:)?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Odium will survive. Now, whether the one HOLDING that power will survive...that's a different question. :) (Not quite a RAFO.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (April 8, 2015)

So the thing that you're saying is a spoiler really is not; Rayse might die. 

But the power in the cosmere does not stop existing. It could be in a lot of forms, but the power will still exist.

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8 minutes ago, RShara said:

He says specifically that your interpretation isn't what he meant. And that specifically *any* of the current characters could still live or die.

I truly do understand your fear for Dalinar. I do share in it to a smaller degree. But we really really don't have any proof at all that Dalinar is going to have a minor, reduced, or limited role in the series, first or second part.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, I hope you understand that. I'm hoping that I can give you some hope for your favorite character and his continued importance to the series.

This is the same situation like "Lift situation". He said multiple times that she will live into the second half, but each time someone points on it he answers that no, he doesn't confirm it. But he DID! I don't understand why he's saying this!

This is the same:

Me: can you tell me about Dalinar's role in the future books?

He: He has a (little) role in books 4 and 5. That's it.

Me: If this is it, then he won't show up after book 5?

Ho: No, it doesn't mean this.

I'm sorry, but his all respects to Sanderson, I think he gives too many spoilers, and when people point on it he tries to downplay his own words and says that no, that's not spoilers. But they are...

As for having hopes, I believe that having false hopes is wrong and dangerous. It's better to know now that Dalinar won't survive and won't have any important role within this story than find it out in the book. Really, someone believe that Dalinar could survive? He has absolutely zero chances. There're no hopes left. 

11 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

This is a miscomprehension. In English, native speakers use "they" to be vague and non-specific, meaning it is clear that Brandon is firmly not telling us anything. They can also mean singular. It is a gender neutral way of saying "someone". 

Ok, thank you, I didn't know this. I thought "they" is always plural. 

 

8 minutes ago, Chaos said:

So the thing that you're saying is a spoiler really is not; Rayse might die. 

But the power in the cosmere does not stop existing. It could be in a lot of forms, but the power will still exist.

This is a bit better. Seems like Honor is not dead dead even if he was killed...

 

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

I mean, I'm sorry, but Brandon himself says that you're reading more into what he said than what he meant?

I think I understood what he meant...he just tried to downplay his own words, but for me, he said enough.

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In the original post, he only mentions book four and five, and then he said you're reading too much into the exact wording of what he said. 

He: He has a (little) role in books 4 and 5. That's it.

This is, once again, not what he said. 

w.png

Yeah, if he said "that's it," then yes, I'd give that to you, but that's your interpretation of what he said, and this does not follow logically from what he said. 

I would really appreciate if we could stick precisely to the facts on what he said, not what people think he said. We're sharing a set of facts, and many of your secondhand things that Brandon said, he did not. It is very frustrating. 

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12 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

This is the same:

Me: can you tell me about Dalinar's role in the future books?

He: He has a (little) role in books 4 and 5. That's it.

Me: If this is it, then he won't show up after book 5?

Ho: No, it doesn't mean this.

I'm sorry, but his all respects to Sanderson, I think he gives too many spoilers, and when people point on it he tries to downplay his own words and says that no, that's not spoilers. But they are...

As for having hopes, I believe that having false hopes is wrong and dangerous. It's better to know now that Dalinar won't survive and won't have any important role within this story than find it out in the book. Really, someone believe that Dalinar could survive? He has absolutely zero chances. There're no hopes left.

I'm sorry, but Brandon doesn't say, "that's it." He says he's not willing to comment on anyone's role past book 5. He's never said whether Kaladin, Shallan, Venli, Renarin, or any of the others survive or have living roles. The Lift one I can see him backtracking on that a little, but she's the only one that's even tenuously confirmed to survive. He also doesn't say a little role. Just a smaller one than his book. Since none of the others are his book, this makes sense, and doesn't really mean very much.

He's been just as close mouthed about whether Kaladin or Shallan or Jasnah or any of the others will survive. I'm willing to bet you anything you want that if someone asks him about Kaladin's role in future books, or Shallan's, he's going to answer almost exactly the same.

False hope can be terrible, but so can false....anti-hope? Extreme Pessimism? Neither one is healthy. But in this case, I really think you are reading far more into this than is being put there. You're welcome to your interpretation, of course, but I just don't think that there's anything close to confirmation on your viewpoint.

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22 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

This is the same situation like "Lift situation". He said multiple times that she will live into the second half, but each time someone points on it he answers that no, he doesn't confirm it. But he DID! I don't understand why he's saying this!

Because as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, Brandon does not want to give away any more information about the back half of the series than he absolutely has to. It's even right there in the second half of the WoB. Telling us who the focus characters will be isn't much of a spoiler since he's been up-front that just because a character is getting a book doesn't mean they'll be alive for it. Case in point, Eshonai is very dead but is still getting the focus in book four. Since that caveat applies to all the other focus characters in the back half (Jasnah, Renarin, Ash and Taln as well) it has to apply to Lift as well.

Quote

I'm sorry, but his all respects to Sanderson, I think he gives too many spoilers, and when people point on it he tries to downplay his own words and says that no, that's not spoilers. But they are...

Except that it's not a spoiler, he literally told you point blank that you're reading into his words more than he actually said. The 'spoiler' exists entirely in your head.

Quote

I think I understood what he meant...he just tried to downplay his own words, but for me, he said enough.

Sometimes Brandon has misspoke or misheard a question, usually at events after he's been talking for hours, it's late and his brain isn't firing on all cylinders. In a purely written response, he's not facing any of those factors. He's not going to slip up and reveal something as big as that in an unforced situation. He told you straight-up that you're reading more into his words than he actually put there. That should be the end of this discussion and the fact that you feel otherwise is mystifying to me. Is this really the hill you want to die on?

Edited by Weltall
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8 minutes ago, Chaos said:

not what people think he said. 

Ok, I just lost. I look into it and for me it's absolutely clear. I don't get why should I interpret it differently. For me, the most simple answer is the right answer. 

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

or Jasnah or any of the others will survive

No. Jasnah and Taln were main characters in the first version of Way of Kings. Sanderson said that he moved their narrative in the second half. It would be logical to assume, if he moved their narratives into the second half if means that there IS a narrative for them. That means they will survive into the second half. Same for Lift. Her survival is confirmed. Period.

6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

 it has to apply to Lift as well.

After Sanderson said she WILL survive? Not anymore.

 

12 minutes ago, RShara said:

False hope can be terrible, but so can false....anti-hope? Extreme Pessimism? Neither one is healthy. But in this case, I really think you are reading far more into this than is being put there. You're welcome to your interpretation, of course, but I just don't think that there's anything close to confirmation on your viewpoint.

Anti-hope?...As I said, I was convinced that Dalinar is going to die a long time ago. Even without those WoBs it seems so obvious for me.

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3 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Anti-hope?...As I said, I was convinced that Dalinar is going to die a long time ago. Even without those WoBs it seems so obvious for me.

And that doesn't scream confirmation bias to you? Just a little?

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1 minute ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Ok, I just lost. I look into it and for me it's absolutely clear. I don't get why should I interpret it differently. For me, the most simple answer is the right answer.

I believe, from the screenshots you posted from Reddit, that English is not your first language.
So maybe it could be a fundamental misunderstanding of what a sepcific sentence can mean and what it does mean.

Because for me (and obviously almost everyone else on this site) it's very clear that there was no confirmation - be it intentional or not - on anyone's survival.

Do I believe Lift will be alive in book six? Damnation yes, I do. Do I take every WoB, no matter how old, word by word? Certainly not.

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I'm really happy these WoBs are now out in the open. They have been the basis of much discussion in other threads. 

By now I do understand (though I don't share) your @LerasiumMistborn pessimism. Your emotional link to Dalinar is very strong and you fear his death. Instead of rafo, you really convinced yourself that Brandon spoiled his death already so that there is no need to read further. There is a chance that Dalinar dies. You are not willing to take that risk even if you miss the chance reading a glorious story.

I get the risk aversion. I am OK with it. However, you should really avoid stating your perception as facts. In the other thread I really believed you that Brandon has outright spoiled a character's death in a private message. It shocked me. So please be more careful in the future and try to understand that there is a different way of interpreting these WoBs than yours. Same as others try to understand your disappointment and fear.

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4 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

After Sanderson said she WILL survive? Not anymore.

Go to Arcanum, type 'Lift&survive' into the search field and have a look at what comes up. I will tell you what you will not see, and that is Brandon explicitly confirming that Lift survives to the back half. Every single time he mentions her role in the second half of the series, it's with the explicit caveat that those POV characters are not guaranteed to be alive by the time they actually get a book.

He also doesn't confirm that any given character will not survive into the back half. All he's doing is making clear that characters who are getting focus books do not have Plot Protection until their book rolls around.

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Yeah. Brandon has been consistent about not confirming or denying whether any given character is going to survive, and about making it clear that characters can die before their flashback books.

Lift and the other back five characters could all be dead before the back five. I don't think any of them is likely to die before then, but Brandon has surprised me before.

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15 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Ok, I just lost. I look into it and for me it's absolutely clear. I don't get why should I interpret it differently. For me, the most simple answer is the right answer. 

I want you to just read exactly what was said in the PM, no more, no less. 

For example, in the original post, Brandon said things about Books 4 and 5. He did not mention later books, but this is an omission. He did not say, as you claim, "He dies, that's it." He did not say he is not in the back five. He did say that you read too much into his words--which is the sign, by the way, that maybe you should consider that your claims could possibly be false. 

I teach math. Math is about going logically from one step to another in such a way that it is indisputable to get from one step to another. You state things as fact that are not, and go from one step to step ten and state it as the truth. I'm... going to need you to show your work, sorry.

Let's think about this logically. Brandon said book 4 Dalinar would get less screen time. Okay, so I'm expecting more like Words of Radiance. Book Five will have more Dalinar, but not as much as Oathbringer. But he was thinking Book 5 could have been Dalinar's book. He's going to have some big, big story beats. 

Why would he not mention what happens to Dalinar in the back five, aside from not giving spoilers? Does Dalinar have to die? Let's come up with some ideas. 

1. Dalinar lives, and he's still the Radiant leader in the back five. We see him a lot, but we don't get viewpoints (or maybe at most interludes, like Taln). 

2. Dalinar ascends to Honor, and is more in the background in the back five, but we still communicate with him as he struggles with Odium. 

3. Dalinar joins up with the Oathpact somehow and is on Braize, and thus can't be as active with the main characters of the back five.

4. Dalinar dies, and becomes a Cognitive Shadow and can only exist in Shadesmar. We interact with him when characters explore Shadesmar. 

5. Dalinar dies and goes into the Beyond. We never see him at all in the back five.

6. Brandon isn't telling anyone about the back five for his main characters, because he has more secrets. 

So is it possible for Dalinar to die? Yes. Absolutely. I can 100% get behind you since you love Dalinar that this is disappointing to you. I'm with you, and I aggressively validate that opinion. However, this is not guaranteed with what Brandon said. I think all of these possibilities--and more--are valid hypotheses for what Brandon said. All are possible.

You're predisposed for believing Dalinar would die, but please understand that this is not an ironclad thing. That's your interpretation. With minimal creativity, it is easy to determine alternatives. I imagine we could come up with several more that fit what Brandon said. 

I think we should all be happy we have an author who truly, genuinely wants to tell fans what is up, and it's difficult for him to balance that with protecting against spoilers. I'm sorry you feel he spoiled things for you, but as the man himself said, maybe you're reading too much into it. Accept that that is possible. 

(It is also perfectly possible Dalinar dies! But this is not the only thing that could happen, and is far from confirmed.) 

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6 hours ago, Weltall said:

Go to Arcanum, type 'Lift&survive' into the search field and have a look at what comes up. I will tell you what you will not see, and that is Brandon explicitly confirming that Lift survives to the back half. 

Sure.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355-idaho-falls-signing/#e10449

"It's the same series but some of the cast will change. For instance, Lift is being seeded as a main character for that series. She'll be grown up, so she won't be quite-- She'll still be Lift, but she may not be quite as teenagery."

 

6 hours ago, RShara said:

And that doesn't scream confirmation bias to you? Just a little?

No. Interesting thing is, you, and Chaos, and Greywatch, and almost everyone, think that Dalinar will die too. This is a weird situation. I think Dalinar is gonna die, you think Dalinar is gonna die, every single reader thinks that Dalinar is gonna die, because is THAT obvious, and yet you all disagree with me. I, honestly, don't understand.

 

6 hours ago, Winds Alight said:

Do I believe Lift will be alive in book six? Damnation yes, I do. Do I take every WoB, no matter how old, word by word? Certainly not.

So, we SHOULD believe that Lift is gonna die, despite having a confirmation of her survival? This is just weird. Why do people ask questions, if they think the answers mean nothing? Dalinar is the same. Obviously, walking corpse, but we SHOULD believe he will survive somehow? What's the purpose of pretending otherwise when this is THAT obvious.

 

6 hours ago, equinox said:

By now I do understand (though I don't share) your @LerasiumMistborn pessimism. Your emotional link to Dalinar is very strong and you fear his death. Instead of rafo, you really convinced yourself that Brandon spoiled his death already so that there is no need to read further. There is a chance that Dalinar dies. You are not willing to take that risk even if you miss the chance reading a glorious story.

I don't fear his death. I know that he will die and I'm disappointed (more like heart-broken) by it. So yeah, there's no need to read further. It's enough for me to know that he will die to cry my eyes out. I don't need to read this scene in the book. It's not glorious, it's a waste. Not only this is painful, but this is also meaningless. Read "adventures of walking corpse" is meaningless. 

Edited by LerasiumMistborn
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2 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

No. Interesting thing is, you, and Chaos, and Greywatch, and almost everyone, think that Dalinar will die too. This is a weird situation. I think Dalinar is gonna die, you think Dalinar is gonna die, every single reader thinks that Dalinar is gonna die, because is THAT obvious, and yet you all disagree with me. I, honestly, don't understand.

I think it's possible he's going to die. I expect many characters to die. 

That doesn't mean he will, though. It's just a possibility. That's not the same. I purely disagree with you stating as a fact. And I strongly disagree that Brandon said he would die in his PMs to you. That's just false. You constantly assume he's a walking corpse, and you're very firm on this. 

Nothing is confirmed! You should couch your opinions as that: opinions, not facts. 

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2 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

No. Interesting thing is, you, and Chaos, and Greywatch, and almost everyone, think that Dalinar will die too. This is a weird situation. I think Dalinar is gonna die, you think Dalinar is gonna die, every single reader thinks that Dalinar is gonna die, because is THAT obvious, and yet you all disagree with me. I, honestly, don't understand.

Do you understand that there is a difference between "he might die" and "I do believe he WILL die"?

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