The Grumpy Elantrian

Burning Hemalurgically Charged Metal

17 posts in this topic

What would be the effect of a mistborn burning a piece of metal with hemalurgic charge?

I have a few thoughts on what may happen and welcome some more. My theories are as of yet:

1. Nothing new will happen as you have too conflicting magic system interacting. The metal would still be able to produce it's allomantic effects, but the hemalurgic charge would not add anything as the two systems are diametrically opposed. Perhaps the hemalurgic charge could even interfere with the allomancy in some way and lessen it's effectiveness?

2. Burning metal with a hemalurgic charge will recieve an increase of the power stored, similar to compounding. This could take several forms I suppose. The allomancer's allomancy could become more potent (although I doubt that because of point one). It could somehow amplify the hemalurgic charge, fuelling the hemalurgy with allomancy, again as seen in compounding. (I don't like this one as much because I don't really see it working.)

3. The hemalurgic charge is applied to the allomancer. This one is weird but I thought that perhaps burning the charged metal kind of exposed your spirit web and allowed the patch of someone elses spirit web to latch onto yours. This one is really weird and I'm not sure if it would even work. But if it does then that'd be an interesting way to get around stabbing spikes into your body. You would of course still experience the effect of hemalurgy, just without the metal spikes. This may also face issues when it comes to where it attaches to your soul, because it may attach randomly and result in incorrect placement.

4. When burning the hemalurgically charged metal, the fragment of the spirit web stored is released to return to the rest of the soul wherever that may be (likely beyond).

So they're my thoughts, I am curious to see what you guys think.

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Quote

Maru Nui

What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

Brandon Sanderson

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.

Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

 

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@RShara That sounds like being spiked without the spike. Could be beneficial if it doesn't turn you into some kind of Lovecraftian abomination.

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I agree with RShara's WoB from above for burning a spike that was taken from someone else. I have a little pet theory that probably isn't true that if someone spikes an aspect out of you and you somehow don't die, you could take that spike back, spike yourself with it, and burn it up to return your spirit to how it was before. It's a bit too clean for Hemalurgy, but... eh. It would be cool.

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19 minutes ago, Artemos said:

I agree with RShara's WoB from above for burning a spike that was taken from someone else. I have a little pet theory that probably isn't true that if someone spikes an aspect out of you and you somehow don't die, you could take that spike back, spike yourself with it, and burn it up to return your spirit to how it was before. It's a bit too clean for Hemalurgy, but... eh. It would be cool.

Except for that when you take hemalurgic decay into account, it's very unlikely you'd be able to restore your entire soul, so you'd still have a few holes or thin parts to it.

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20 minutes ago, Artemos said:

I agree with RShara's WoB from above for burning a spike that was taken from someone else. I have a little pet theory that probably isn't true that if someone spikes an aspect out of you and you somehow don't die, you could take that spike back, spike yourself with it, and burn it up to return your spirit to how it was before. It's a bit too clean for Hemalurgy, but... eh. It would be cool.

You'd probably lose some functionality/efficiency with it because Hemalurgy just does that.

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In my scouring of WoBs for my medallion theory, which does involve burning spikes, I read pretty much every WoB I'm aware of concerning spikes, and there is a more recent one than what @RShara posted which contradicts it.

Quote

Questioner

If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

At this point, I think burning a spike is going to work exactly like compounding. Your going to get a large burst of power if what is contained in the spike... Which is a part of a soul, which means that I. Most cases, you're never going to want to do it. 

4 human strength spikes twists a person into a Koloss. Whatever spike your burning, I think unless you have a way to dump that power off into something else it's going to be... Unpleasant at minimum. Possibly fatal. And even if the effects are temporary, it's probably going to have some warping effects on the soul that persist, because unlike Savant ism which is a byproduct, this is directly toying with your Spiritual aspect. 

In any case, you're going to have to play some games to be able to burn a spike to begin with, because all spikes by the nature in which they're made should be Identity locked. If dumping your own Identity is enough to bypass that, which we don't know, great. It's easy. Worst case, you'd need an unkeyed spike... Which means it would have to be made while someone was dumping their own Identity. Without a willing participant, good luck with that. 

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On 2/25/2019 at 6:55 PM, Calderis said:

Which means it would have to be made while someone was dumping their own Identity. Without a willing participant, good luck with that. 

Unless you spiked their identity out first.....

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1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Unless you spiked their identity out first.....

I don't think that's possible. Identity is a marker that should permeate all of a person's Investiture. 

Storing it removes that from all of you... But all spikes take Identity with them. Because it's in all of it. 

Spikes rip out a chunk of the spiritweb.to remove all identity would have to target the whole... Not just a bind point. 

Even if it is possible, you'd better get that second spike in quick since they're dead now. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that's possible. Identity is a marker that should permeate all of a person's Investiture. 

Storing it removes that from all of you... But all spikes take Identity with them. Because it's in all of it. 

Spikes rip out a chunk of the spiritweb.to remove all identity would have to target the whole... Not just a bind point. 

Even if it is possible, you'd better get that second spike in quick since they're dead now. 

...... You win this round......:P

Aren't there nonlethal bind points? Like in your arm? (I'm trying to remember that chart..... But I think that was on the placement of spikes not there creation.) If there were you could spike your own ability out of yourself, like bronze, then burn it to become an even more powerful bronze burner. Repeat as often as you want!

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18 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

...... You win this round......:P

Aren't there nonlethal bind points? Like in your arm? (I'm trying to remember that chart..... But I think that was on the placement of spikes not there creation.) If there were you could spike your own ability out of yourself, like bronze, then burn it to become an even more powerful bronze burner. Repeat as often as you want!

Fair enough... If you can find a non-lethal bind point that is able to actually steal a power you'd want a big burst of one time (as the newer WoB says it doesn't graft onto you) that you can burn the metal required to make the spike (bronze steals bronze allomancy, so that one might actually work, though you'd actually need to place the spike to be able to burn it which would be horrifically painful) then you could spike out your own power and then burn it... 

You still might not want to though... 

Quote

Volratho

If someone was tapping gold, would spiking a separate ability out of them kill them? Or would it work at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to spike someone without killing them. But they'd never be the same. It would be worse than being a drab.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

 

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18 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't think that's possible. Identity is a marker that should permeate all of a person's Investiture. 

Storing it removes that from all of you... But all spikes take Identity with them. Because it's in all of it. 

Spikes rip out a chunk of the spiritweb.to remove all identity would have to target the whole... Not just a bind point. 

Even if it is possible, you'd better get that second spike in quick since they're dead now. 

While it certainly permeates the entire spirit-web, I think it's possible (if entirely unproven) that Identity in a spiritweb is emanating from some central spirit-web structure/organ that could be ripped out, leaving a permanently blanked/toneless spiritweb that is otherwise functional. And I only say functional because apparently there arent any debilitating side effects from Blanking it via Ferchemy, it would still be severely damaged.  I tend to default to wave&sounds analogies with a lot of the spiritweb, so I tend to think of the Identity as the Voice-box of the spiritweb, were it can be destroyed but you'd still theoretically be able to breath and talk and any other breath-based functions, just without all the distinctive vocal timbre that it once had. 

 

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@Quantus I picture Identity as more of a distinctive waveform that permeates the whole.

If you remove that waveform you haven't actually changed anything about the information in the Spiritual Aspect, you've just made it a generic signal. Anyone can access it. 

There are definitely downsides, they just aren't physical. 

As to some central Spiritual "organ," I don't believe that, but that's purely opinion. 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus I picture Identity as more of a distinctive waveform that permeates the whole.

If you remove that waveform you haven't actually changed anything about the information in the Spiritual Aspect, you've just made it a generic signal. Anyone can access it. 

There are definitely downsides, they just aren't physical. 

True, they'd be left far more vulnerable to a whole host of things, but the lack of identity permeating the rest of the spiritweb would not negatively impact the actual function of those pieces. 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

As to some central Spiritual "organ," I don't believe that, but that's purely opinion. 

The reason I lean toward some spiritweb "organ" idea is that hemalurgy is always described as removing a discrete functional chunk of the larger spiritweb, something that has actual edges.  So by extension any of the things that could be stolen by a spike, be that Identity or any individual Power, would need to be similarity localized into a discrete region. Organ seemed as good a term as any, though admittedly my original image was more of cutting into a circuit board to steal specific functional pieces.  I think that even follows with how you would have to spike both sides of a Nahel Bond, because the Bind is a connection (Connection?) that is anchored onto specific regions of the web. The only exception to that I've seen is the idea that Aluminum Spikes are negating the powers in the target by destroying the relevant spiritweb without actually stealing anything or gaining an Investiture Charge, and that similarly Aluminum metalminds are technically suppressing Identity rather than storing it.  That's a theory I really like because it reconciles the Metallic arts with the fact that everywhere else Aluminum is entirely resistant to Investiture. 

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Posted (edited)

On 2/27/2019 at 8:22 PM, Calderis said:

I don't think that's possible. Identity is a marker that should permeate all of a person's Investiture. 

Storing it removes that from all of you... But all spikes take Identity with them. Because it's in all of it. 

Spikes rip out a chunk of the spiritweb.to remove all identity would have to target the whole... Not just a bind point. 

Even if it is possible, you'd better get that second spike in quick since they're dead now. 

Fortunately, we now have a hemalurgy chart! Duralumin steals Connection and Identity!

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Fortunately, we now have a hemalurgy chart! Duralumin steals Connection and Identity!

Which doesn't negate my point. If your targeting Identity specifically, of course you can take it... Not exactly sure why you'd want to... But if somehow the person were to survive the spiking, I don't think they'd suddenly lack Identity. 

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14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Which doesn't negate my point. If your targeting Identity specifically, of course you can take it... Not exactly sure why you'd want to... But if somehow the person were to survive the spiking, I don't think they'd suddenly lack Identity. 

I suspect they'd either lack Identity equivalent to somebody filling a metalmind, or (depending on if they survive via Gold healing, etc) the newly grown piece of Soulweb might have changed enough to give them a new or at least slightly different Identity, along the same lines of how a split spike lets both recipients use the metalminds of the original but not each other since there's a muddying effect on their Identity. 

On that note, the most immediate use I can think of to steal Identity is to access a feruchemist's Metalminds, or in a broader Cosmere situation maybe bypass some other form of Investiture-lock they may have implemented (cant think of anything specific but I could see it coming into play vs something Selish).  Though in Era2 with Ferrings but no full Feruchemists I think it would be more practical to just steal their feruchemcial ability itself.   In a hypothetical that likely never has had a chance to happen, you might be able to lash past Plate if you had managed to spike the Identity of the original Radiant that created it. 

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