Child of Tanavast / Child of Honor --> now with WoB

[LerasiumMistborn]

21 hours ago, Invocation said:

Narrative-wise, Dalinar makes minimal sense. The guy is old. He's had his fighting times. Kaladin makes more sense as a successor to Dalinar, learning from him and fulfilling his whole "save everyone" complex. Dalinar is important, not so much as the hero of the story, but as the Obi-Wan of the story, relatively speaking. An old mentor who has made mistakes with his life teaching a younger generation how to not make those same, or similar, or worse, mistakes. Dalinar will die, though, so in that we agree, but if he does, due to Sanderson's preferences, he will likely die gloriously and Sandman will have pulled one over on us all.

Huh? Shard Vessels are immortal, so the actual age doesn't matter. Kaladin has absolutely ZERO sense as Honor's Shard. It's not his story, it's Dalinar's story that was stolen from him and gave to Kaladin for no reasons, except for "overpowered main character syndrome".

[+Invocation]

Just now, LerasiumMistborn said:

Huh? Shard Vessels are immortal, so the actual age doesn't matter. Kaladin has absolutely ZERO sense as Honor's Shard. It's not his story, it's Dalinar's story that was stolen from him and gave to Kaladin for no reasons, except for "overpowered main character syndrome".

I'm not talking about Ascending to Honor. I'm talking about defeating Odium's forces. Reforming Honor is secondary.

[LerasiumMistborn]

21 hours ago, Invocation said:

I'm not talking about Ascending to Honor. I'm talking about defeating Odium's forces. Reforming Honor is secondary.

I don't see your point then.

I was disappointed, because Dalinar's story with Ascending to Honor is now belongs to Kaladin for absolute no reasons. It's not secondary, it was a core of Dalinar's narrative.

One person can't defeat Odium's forces. Dalinar was a general and successor of Honor's power, Kaladin was a soldier and a leader of the windrunners. Shouldn't all characters have their own story without stealing other characters stories? I really, honestly can't see how Dalinar's narrative with Shards is less interesting that this cliched, boring and predictable "older character dies and passes his role to younger generation" that happens in every book. That's just a tasteless cliche and a horrible way to end Dalinar's story. He was unique, but totally wasted for the sake of cliches. Sanderson really shouldn't even start writing this character. I think so.

No, Kaladin doesn't make any sense. Dalinar was moving into this direction for the whole book only to...what? To put all character development into garbage basket? I kinda hoped Sanderson would write something better for his "favorite" character than "terrible person needs redemption and commits suicide to earn it". Also, the whole Dalinar's arc in Oathbringer is meaningless in that case. Like, was it interesting to speculate about the meaning of Unity? Who cares, it means nothing, Dalinar will die anyway. And what's the purpose of reading such story?

[Calderis]

Everything here is assumptions. Dalinar's death. Kaladin's supposed usurping if his role... 

Dalinar is the Bondsmith. The leader and moral center of the current Radiants. He quite literally overcame his own death in OB. 

The assumption that that's just going to be tossed aside astounds me. If Dalinar dies, I'm sure there will be an interesting journey to reach that point. 

I'll wait to read the story were given. 

[+Invocation]

First, before I get into this, I want to apologise for any things I haven't worded adequately in this post and and the others and any to follow.

2 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I was disappointed, because Dalinar's story with Ascending to Honor is now belongs to Kaladin for absolute no reasons. It's not secondary, it was a core of Dalinar's narrative.

I don't honestly think Kaladin will Ascend to Honor. I don't think anyone truly will. Dalinar might, but it definitely won't be the same as Tanavast's Honor.

4 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

One person can't defeat Odium's forces.

Odium agreed to the champion thing, so, for the time being, yes, one person can, if it's the right person.

6 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Dalinar was a general and successor of Honor's power, Kaladin was a soldier and a leader of the windrunners.

These two things are not incompatible with what the handing off of the baton from Dalinar to Kaladin that I propose as happening. Should Dalinar Ascend (regardless of my skepticism on this part), he will be continuing the trend of retreating from a battlefield general to a back-tent one by not even technically having a physical body for at least a time (I can't remember if Shards can create bodies or not beyond Autonomy), the torch of Head Battlefield Radiant-General being tossed to Kaladin, who continues to do his whole "protect everyone" thing.

15 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I really, honestly can't see how Dalinar's narrative with Shards is less interesting that this cliched, boring and predictable "older character dies and passes his role to younger generation" that happens in every book. That's just a tasteless cliche and a horrible way to end Dalinar's story. He was unique, but totally wasted for the sake of cliches. Sanderson really shouldn't even start writing this character. I think so.

Some things are cliches because they have meaning. Having a cliche in a story doesn't wreck the story. In an epic fantasy series such as SA, the passing of the torch makes perfect sense, as it generally does when it's used, since it's literally what happens in real life over time.

18 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

No, Kaladin doesn't make any sense. Dalinar was moving into this direction for the whole book only to...what? To put all character development into garbage basket? I kinda hoped Sanderson would write something better for his "favorite" character than "terrible person needs redemption and commits suicide to earn it". Also, the whole Dalinar's arc in Oathbringer is meaningless in that case. Like, was it interesting to speculate about the meaning of Unity? Who cares, it means nothing, Dalinar will die anyway.

If/when Dalinar dies, I doubt it'll be through suicide. Odds are, it'll just be because he's old and got caught without Stormlight/while sleeping/they just kept stabbing until there was no Stormlight left and he was too weak to Connect to the other Realms to renew his spheres. Dalinar's arc in Oathbringer was about confronting himself, his past, and how he could help with the future to try to avoid that, while also saving and helping Roshar. He's railing against the rest of the world's shenanigans and reevaluating his own place in it. That's not wasted no matter what happens with his storyline over all.

28 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

And what's the purpose of reading such story?

This is the worst possible thing you could have said.

The purpose of reading a story is to experience the story. You don't like part of it? Oh well, it's a negative experience on that part. You don't have to read any of this. Feel free to quit because you don't like something that happened. Your choice entirely. You disagree with one of the character bits? That's your right. Have fun. Do as you want. That doesn't mean that the story isn't worth reading, though.

[LerasiumMistborn]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

Everything here is assumptions. Dalinar's death. Kaladin's supposed usurping if his role... 

Dalinar is the Bondsmith. The leader and moral center of the current Radiants. He quite literally overcame his own death in OB. 

The assumption that that's just going to be tossed aside astounds me. If Dalinar dies, I'm sure there will be an interesting journey to reach that point. 

I'll wait to read the story were given. 

After reading a couple of books you get to know the author, learn his ways, see what tropes he prefers to use. After that it's not hard to predict what he will write next. Especially true for Sanderson, who uses the same tricks over and over again.

Yes, Dalinar is the Bondsmith...he doesn't even have his own real spren. The Stormfather, despite being Dalinar's spren, has more connection with Kaladin, who's now super special successor of Tanavast. That's not assumptions, right? Sanderson said/wrote it himself.

21 hours ago, Invocation said:

If/when Dalinar dies, I doubt it'll be through suicide. Odds are, it'll just be because he's old and got caught without Stormlight/while sleeping/they just kept stabbing until there was no Stormlight left and he was too weak to Connect to the other Realms to renew his spheres.

You really think this is a satisfying conclusion to Dalinar's story?  Is this a good story? I'm speechless. So, the whole talking with Gods, ascending, progressing with ideals things were only to end like this? To be killed in a sleep. If anything this is a poor writing, made for mere shock value and a splt in the face for all readers who followed Dalinar for years. And passing the tourch to Kaladin is also a poor writing, because it's not a natural development by all means. This is: one character was thrown away and his role was given to other character, who has nothing to do with this plot. It makes the whole Dalinar narrative meaningless. And when something that was supposed to be that important turns out to be meaningless, this is, again, bad writing. Or maybe I'm just this boring person, who prefers normal developments and satisfying, natural conclusions for the characters, instead of killing them while they sleep for mere plot twists.

[+Invocation]

Just now, LerasiumMistborn said:

You really think this is a satisfying conclusion to Dalinar's story?  Is this a good story? I'm speechless. So, the whole talking with Gods, ascending, progressing with ideals things were only to end like this? To be killed in a sleep. If anything this is a poor writing, made for mere shock value and a splt in the face for all readers who followed Dalinar for years. And passing the tourch to Kaladin is also a poor writing, because it's not a natural development by all means. This is: one character was thrown away and his role was given to other character, who has nothing to do with this plot. It makes the whole Dalinar narrative meaningless. And when something that was supposed to be that important turns out to be meaningless, this is, again, bad writing. Or maybe I'm just this boring person, who prefers normal developments and satisfying, natural conclusions for the characters, instead of killing them while they sleep for mere plot twists.

I didn't say I'd be satisfied with that ending to Dalinar, but I'd understand it. I'd understand Odium removing a lynchpin player and I'd understand it being shocking to the audience. That happens sometimes. Not everyone gets a satisfying ending, even on the heroes side, and fantasy itself is more predisposed to being predictable with the heroes escaping unharmed.

I would also argue the point of it being bad writing to have had this built up and it be revealed that it wasn't what we thought it was in terms of importance. A red herring? Yes. Bad writing? Not if it's done right.

[Calderis]

28 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

After reading a couple of books you get to know the author, learn his ways, see what tropes he prefers to use. After that it's not hard to predict what he will write next. Especially true for Sanderson, who uses the same tricks over and over again.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Authors in general vary greatly, and while this is true for some it is by no means true for all. 

I very strongly disagree to the idea that Brandon is retreading ground he's already written before. If he were I wouldn't be the obsessive fan of the Cosmere that I am. 

28 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Yes, Dalinar is the Bondsmith...he doesn't even have his own real spren. The Stormfather, despite being Dalinar's spren, has more connection with Kaladin, who's now super special successor of Tanavast. That's not assumptions, right? Sanderson said/wrote it himself.

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? He quite clearly has his own spren, and the Connection between him, the Stormfather, and Tanavast's CS have major implications. 

If the "child of Tanavast" thing is what you're referring to here about Kaladin, I'd like to know where Brandon explained what it means? Because you're giving it a lot of weight that is based on what exactly? 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Calderis

[LerasiumMistborn]

21 hours ago, Invocation said:

I didn't say I'd be satisfied with that ending to Dalinar, but I'd understand it. I'd understand Odium removing a lynchpin player and I'd understand it being shocking to the audience. That happens sometimes. Not everyone gets a satisfying ending, even on the heroes side, and fantasy itself is more predisposed to being predictable with the heroes escaping unharmed.

I would also argue the point of it being bad writing to have had this built up and it be revealed that it wasn't what we thought it was in terms of importance. A red herring? Yes. Bad writing? Not if it's done right.

Red herring is a bad writing. At least, it is for me, as I see it as a broken promise to the readers. So, I spent about ten years of my life for Dalinar only to read him being kelled in a sleep? I'm sorry, but this is literally the worst thing I've ever heard. When you write a certain setup for the character, when you spend 1200 pages for moving the character towards certain development, you should give a satisfying conclusion for all the set up. Killing the character halfway through the story, waste all setup is...beyond horrible.

Maybe he will write Moash killing Kaladin in the first chapter of book 4? No one expects it, I think this is such an amazing twist.

Or maybe Adolin will slip on the babana skin and break his neck, instead of reviving his sword? So fresh an unxpected. No? Then why all the characters get normal, satisfying development to their plots, exept for one Dalinar? Why for him this is entirely normal to pass his own personal plot to someone else and die halfway through?

I'm honestly devastated with this anti-Dalinar campaign. The author takes his story away from him, the whole readership wants him dead without even caring that it would waste all character's narrative and potential. It seems I'm abnormal for rooting for good, satisfyong conclusion for this character, and for all plotlines the author started to write himself (!)

Yes, fantasy is predictable. The main reason I dislike Kaladin as a character is because he's immortal with thick plot armor. I can't feel for him, I can't worry for him. Why? He won't die. He's Honor's Champion, and Honor himself, and Odium, and Adonalsium, and everything. On the other hand, someone like Dalinar is doomed to die just because he's "that older character, who always dies". Amazing.

On the side note, battle of the champions won't destroy Odium. It was clearly stated in the book.

[Calderis]

@LerasiumMistborn "anti-dalinar campaign"? "the whole readership wants him dead?"

The only person I've heard consistently say he's going to die is you. I've heard a few others, @Invocationin this conversation included, saying they expect it to happen... But by no means is anything like what you discribe something I've seen from anything like the majority.

You're insistence on this matter is... Frankly disturbing. You assert that it will happen and that you hate it, and that it ruin's the story... When it's never stated anywhere, it's not a opinion put forth commonly that I've seen, and in the times that your bring this opinion up, most people are disagreeing with your assertions. 

It makes no sense whatsoever. 

[+Invocation]

18 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Maybe he will write Moash killing Kaladin in the first chapter of book 4? No one expects it, I think this is such an amazing twist.

Or maybe Adolin will slip on the babana skin and break his neck, instead of reviving his sword? So fresh an unxpected. No? Then why all the characters get normal, satisfying development to their plots, exept for one Dalinar? Why for him this is entirely normal to pass his own personal plot to someone else and die halfway through?

There's a difference between killing someone in an unexpected way because their death serves to further the plot and shock value death. If I thought Sanderson would shock value kill Dalinar, I'd be as mad about it as you are, but I choose to believe that if Dalinar dies, it'll be a necessity. That's the difference. Waste versus use. If/when Dalinar dies, he'll be useful in death like he was in life. So be it.

18 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

On the side note, battle of the champions won't destroy Odium. It was clearly stated in the book.

I never said it'll destroy Odium, many apologies if it came off that way, but it'll delay him and that's the best thing you can hope for when facing 1/16th of the functional God.

 

Also, as a side note, you're asserting this very forcefully based 90% on your own assumptions as to where the story is headed. You okay?

Edit: This last bit has been ninja'd by Calderis. Yay.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Invocation

[Winds Alight]

Oh, why did that discussion have to come up again? Could we please just ... stop this?

No one hates Dalinar. Not the readers, no one in this forum (honestly? I've never ever seen anyone voice dislike over him. Contrary to most other main characters), not Sanderson himself.

So just ... stop.

[galendo]

@LerasiumMistborn: I agree with you on some things -- I think that more likely than not Dalinar is going to get killed off, probably at the end of book 5, or perhaps as soon as the end of book 4.  But some of what you fear seems frankly silly -- I assure you there's practically a 0% chance that Dalinar gets murdered in his sleep or gets some pointless Game of Thrones style treatment.  Because you're right -- Sanderson is predicable, at least to an extent.  And that's a good thing, for those of us who like that style of writing.

Rather than pick apart individual fears, let me ask you a question.  Are you dead set on Dalinar ascending to Honor/Unity?  Is that the only way that you will be satisfied with his arc ending?

If you're totally on the Unity-or-bust train, then yeah I think that you'll end up disappointed.  But let me use myself as an example.  Kaladin is my favorite character.  I want him to have a meaningful storyline, but I'll be fine regardless of whether that means he ascends to Honor or dies a glorious death or becomes king of Alethkar or retires to some quiet corner of Roshar to find happiness.  Or something else entirely.

Be open to the journey, not focused on the destination.  If I were to set my heart on one particular outcome of Kaladin's storyline, then yes, there's about an 80% chance that I'll be disappointed.  But if I just want a meaningful ending, there's almost a 100% chance that I'll get one.

OT: I'm actually not sure that this distinction between Child of Tanavast and Child of Honor is a meaningful one.  At most, I expect that if the Stormfather is making a distinction, it's a minor one.  Like how the humans call him the Stormfather while the Parshendi call him the Rider of Storms.  The distinction is probably not hugely story-relevant.

[Argent]

@LerasiumMistborn, @Invocation, @Calderis: I am putting a stop to this conversation about Dalinar, effective immediately. If you can reel it back to the original subject of the thread (without making meta-commentary), please do so. If you disagree with my judgment call, you can talk to me in private, but I don't want this thread further derailed with replies to this post.

[+Invocation]

Just now, Argent said:

@LerasiumMistborn, @Invocation, @Calderis: I am putting a stop to this conversation about Dalinar, effective immediately. If you can reel it back to the original subject of the thread (without making meta-commentary), please do so. If you disagree with my judgment call, you can talk to me in private, but I don't want this thread further derailed with replies to this post.

Works for me. Sorry for getting so off topic.

[insert_anagram_here]

I love this WoB. Good job @Winds Alight!

11 hours ago, Argent said:

It is interesting that Dalinar doesn't qualify in the same way though...

So, if we take "Child of Tanavast" figuratively it could mean that a difference exists between Dalinar's and Kaladin's definition of honor. Personally, I believe this to be true but since it seems to be a contesting topic, I will not elaborate for the time being. Maybe this divergence can be compared to Stormfather's existence which has changed across the ages due to people's cognizance of 'what the Stormfather is'. In the same manner maybe we can assume that the definition of 'honor' might've changed, evident in Alethi's warlike society in contrast to other Rosharan nations. We've also had other indications that languages on Roshar have changed a lot, meanings added and removed across the ages, to the point of some knowledge is currently lost.

On the other hand if we take it literary, I believe there is potential for interesting lore to be uncovered from this idea. Multiple waves of humans arrived on Roshar, so that could explain the difference between Dalinar and Kaladin's heritage, as one could be a descendant of a different wave from the other. I would love to know if this entails a restriction of KR powers/surges between the different races/waves of men...

I like both ideas tbh, so I'd like to believe that we might see both of the meanings fulfilled depending on the character point of view discovering this truth. Much like how Christianity's Original Sin, believed to define that all humans were descendants of Adam and Eve, which has divided intellectuals in the past about humanity's origin. I think that Sanderson likes to compare different point of views on fictional often-religious topics (that why we love Jasnah right?) and I think it would provide a lot of points for philosophical discussion.

[Winds Alight]

16 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I love this WoB. Good job @Winds Alight!

So, if we take "Child of Tanavast" figuratively it could mean that a difference exists between Dalinar's and Kaladin's definition of honor. Personally, I believe this to be true but since it seems to be a contesting topic, I will not elaborate for the time being. Maybe this divergence can be compared to Stormfather's existence which has changed across the ages due to people's cognizance of 'what the Stormfather is'. In the same manner maybe we can assume that the definition of 'honor' might've changed, evident in Alethi's warlike society in contrast to other Rosharan nations. We've also had other indications that languages on Roshar have changed a lot, meanings added and removed across the ages, to the point of some knowledge is currently lost.

I actually didn't think too much about what the difference could mean, I only asked myself IF there is one

But this makes me think: Do we have to separate Tanavast from the shard Honor here?
Dalinar being more associated with the concept of Honor in a religious sense: the Almighty as the single most important entity in Vorin lore, while Kaladin has more in common with the human being Tanavast must once have been?
That said, who was Tanavast? Before he became Honor, and after that. Hoid says he was a fine fellow. Okay. He also was obsesed by oaths. Alright.
What else do we have? Not much actually.
While Kaladin is a pretty honorable fellow by himself, we have seen him struggle with believing that honor in the literal sense is still A Thing among humans.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Karger]

Alternatively it could just be that individuals who know more about Honor use his given name while others just use Honor as a generic.

[Winds Alight]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Alternatively it could just be that individuals who know more about Honor use his given name while others just use Honor as a generic.

I don't think so, since in both cases it was the Stormfather who used the terms. Both Child of Tanavast and Child of Honor for Kal and only Child of Honor for Dalinar.

[Jofwu]

My guess/interpretation:

Stormfather is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, so he's merely drawing a relationship between himself and Kaladin as a Windrunner. (i.e., Windrunners like Kaladin are his children just as Syl and the honorspren are.)

[Karger]

40 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

Stormfather is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow

No actually he is Honor's.  Tanavast was the human holding Honor's power that produced the Stormfather.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

No actually he is Honor's.  Tanavast was the human holding Honor's power that produced the Stormfather.

Shards do not have Cognitive Shadows. The shard continues in whole, or is Splintered. The Cognitive Shadow that the Stormfather merged with would be Tanavast's, and speaking of him as "Honor" would just be shorthand for "Honor's Vessel." 

The Shard itself did not have a Cognitive Aspect to become a CS, and frankly based off the Intents, I don't believe a Shard would have CS even if it had developed a Vessel independent Cognitive Aspect. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Calderis

[insert_anagram_here]

As stated in the Coppermind as well, Stormfather has said:

Quote

I AM HIS . . . SPREN, YOU MIGHT SAY. NOT HIS SOUL. I AM THE MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE. THE PERSONIFICATION OF STORMS AND OF THE DIVINE. I AM NO GOD. I AM BUT A SHADOW OF ONE.  (Words of Radiance ch89)

So if the Stormfather is a collective cognition of who/what people think he is, that means that there are people that believe there is a difference between 'Child of Tanavast' and 'Child of Honor'. And the only ones that can say this are the ones that remember Tanavast right? Like maybe Cultivation's Vessel herself?

Quote

WeiryWriter
What are Cultivation's feelings with regards to the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson
Cultivation's feelings... Cultivation is, *long pause* I just have to decide how I can say things that are not spoilers. Cultivation-- The Stormfather reminds her of certain things about someone else she knew, and she feels the same way about the Stormfather in some ways as this person that she knew.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/216/#e6436

 

[Use the Falchion]

A slightly cliché but not unheard of theory: What if Kaladin's spirit web was actually mirrored off of/formerly was Tanavast's? Like how Christianity has The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit as one being but separate, maybe Tanavast did a similar thing? It wouldn't be the first time "The Chosen One" would be raised by someone who doesn't share all of his DNA (Luke Skywalker*, Rand Al'Thor, Jon Snow...you get the picture). Kaladin has some pretty strong messianic tropes as it is (not as strong as Kelsier's but strong enough). I'm not saying Lirin and Hesina aren't Kaladin's bio-parents either, because I believe they are. But what if Kaladin was...more?

Not sure how it'd play out, but weirdly I can't imagine it ending with Kaladin reforming Honor or anything like that. It's not his path to do so at the moment. 

 

*Yes I know Luke isn't The Chose One, but he's the first person with the Hero's Journey for most Star Wars watchers and fans, so he kinda counts.

[+Quazzi]

On 2/22/2019 at 3:33 AM, Winds Alight said:

Ah, thank you, that slipped past me while reading.

But it still makes Kaladin the only one being referred to that way. (If I didn't miss more which is very possible.)

Wow nice job spotting that. I never noticed it before. I would think this could just be nothing but it is definitely something to remember moving forward. Has anything ever been said on whether or not Shards can actually have children?