Child of Tanavast / Child of Honor --> now with WoB

[Winds Alight]

I don't know if that has been discussed before, I searched but didn't find a thread specifically on this or a WoB.

Ever since I reread SA last fall I've been thinking about ch. 46 of WoK.
There, Kaladin is referred to by Stormfather as "Child of Honor, Child of Tanavast". That's the only time in all three books anyone is called "Child of Tanavast", where I remember several times that different characters are referred to as "Child of Honor".
So was it mere coincidence that the Stormfather used "Tanavast" this one time, or is there more to it?
What I keep asking myself is, did Tanavast father children? Are there living descendants of the human/Shardholder Tanavast on Roshar? Like Kaladin?

Concerning Honor and the "bigger" Cosmere and Adonalsium-related stuff, Dalinar has been the centre of attention. (That's why, to me, Dalinar is closer to being the "main protagonist" despite having much a much smaller word count than Kaladin.

It's really just this one time Stormfather called Kaladin "Child of Tanavast" that made me think about this.
Is there more to it? Or is it a coincidence and I'm just too paranoid because I don't believe in coincidences in the Cosmere anymore?

Edited May 17, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Sedside]

6 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

That's the only time in all three books anyone is called "Child of Tanavast"

There was once in OB. When Kaladin tried to convince Stormfather to stop the storm and save the people:

Quote

“I speak only of you, and only today. Please.”
Thunder rumbled. And the Stormfather actually seemed to consider the request.
IT IS NOT SOMETHING I CAN DO, SON OF TANAVAST. IF THE WIND STOPS BLOWING, IT IS NOT A WIND. IT IS NOTHING.
“But—”

 

[Winds Alight]

Ah, thank you, that slipped past me while reading.

But it still makes Kaladin the only one being referred to that way. (If I didn't miss more which is very possible.)

[LerasiumMistborn]

I wouldn't read too much into this, mostly because this (child of Honor and child of Tanavast) is the same thing, right? I mean, Honor IS Tanavast and Tanavast is Honor. He was Honor's original holder since shattering. Basically, as he's considered to be God of humans, all human population of Roshar are "children of Tanavast/Honor".

So, I think this is just metaphorical.

As for whether or not Shard holders can have an actual children, I think the answer is "no". How? They aren't humans anymore. Though they have a power of creation...Technically they can create humans (like it happened in mistborn), I suppose, but can we count them as an actual childern? This is a subject to debate.

 

[Nathrangking]

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Are Shard Vessels able to have children?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes they are.

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

Even Sazed, with his body being a eunuch?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, though technically all of Scadrial are the children of Preservation and Ruin.

Librarypalooza (Feb. 27, 2016)

 

 

[Winds Alight]

Soooo I just came home from a signing in Stuttgart, Germany and I got to ask this question!

Quote

Me: In SA, there are several instances when Kaladin or Dalinar are referred to as "Child of Honor" by the Stormfather, but Kaladin - and only Kaladin - he calls "Child of Tanavast". Is there something to it?
Brandon: Yes, there is. It does mean something.

(Paraphrased, I was toooooo nervous to remember the exact wording. I was so silly that when he asked me how I was my answer was "I'm trembling" )

But there you go. Whatever it means, it's not a coincidence. I finally have some peace of mind and I didn't waste time when thinking about this!

Edited May 17, 2019 by Winds Alight

[equinox]

1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

Soooo I just came home from a signing in Stuttgart, Germany and I got to ask this question!

Brandon was in Stuttgart? Why didn't I know this? 

Btw. I think it's never a waste of time to think about such things. I love theorizing, even if the resulting theories are shot down by WoB or the next book...

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

Soooo I just came home from a signing in Stuttgart, Germany and I got to ask this question!

I'm jealous you got to go! Good question, though. None are wasted ever, but wow, that one was a good one.

[equinox]

Now that I think about it, I really hope Kaladin is not a direct descendant from Tanavast. I would prefer a more metaphorical meaning as I do not care much for the "special person is a secret/hidden descendant from another special character" thing.

But it's really great you got to ask this question @Winds Alight. Only.. Now, I want to know more about it! 

[Winds Alight]

9 hours ago, equinox said:

Brandon was in Stuttgart? Why didn't I know this? 

You should follow him on FB or Twitter or have a look in the "events and signings" section of the Shard. I read about the signing (and he did a quick read of SA 4 as well) on facebook and took the day off so I could be there in time

9 hours ago, equinox said:

Now that I think about it, I really hope Kaladin is not a direct descendant from Tanavast. I would prefer a more metaphorical meaning as I do not care much for the "special person is a secret/hidden descendant from another special character" thing.

But it's really great you got to ask this question @Winds Alight. Only.. Now, I want to know more about it! 

Me too!
Also, I'm not entirely sure whether I'm thrilled about the fact that it actually does mean something, or simply about being right. As simple a thing as "an actual descendant of Tanavast" doesn't sound too compelling now, but let's see where this takes us later ...

[equinox]

28 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

...

I don't do FB/Twitter. But thanks for mentioning the "events and signing" section. I haven't ever checked that one before, but I will do so from now on. 

Regarding the implications of "Child of Tanavast", I'm confident, Brandon Sanderson will come up with something much more intriguing than the descendant story. Though, my brain won't come up with an idea right now. Ah... Can't wait for RoW

[Winds Alight]

2 minutes ago, equinox said:

Regarding the implications of "Child of Tanavast", I'm confident, Brandon Sanderson will come up with something much more intriguing than the descendant story. Though, my brain won't come up with an idea right now. Ah... Can't wait for RoW

He actually did say at the signing that it's getting harder and harder to come up with unexpected twists, because we readers are getting better at predicting them. So we'll see. I'm not even close to figuring out his books.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Winds Alight

[LerasiumMistborn]

I think, it just means that Kaladin will become Honor. So, no real descendant of Tanavast, more like successor of Honor/Tanavast power. New Honor. 

[kientha]

6 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I think, it just means that Kaladin will become Honor. So, no real descendant of Tanavast, more like successor of Honor/Tanavast power. New Honor. 

I think its to do with windrunners being closest to the concept of Honor with the Bondspren and their oaths and so windrunners are children of Tavanast in how they act

[CosmicSieve]

3 minutes ago, kientha said:

I think its to do with windrunners being closest to the concept of Honor with the Bondspren and their oaths and so windrunners are children of Tavanast in how they act

Perhaps, to build on that, it is because Syl would be the only Honorspren to actually remember Tanavast, and so when she picked her Knight she chose someone close to what Tanavast was like. The other Honorspren were all made after the Recreance, and possibly after the concept of honor had changed.

[Raykoda]

Way more importantly, if Kaladin is Tanavast's actual, physical descendant, then he must not have come from Ashyn with the rest of humanity since that was Odium's planet.  Do we have WoB's on migrations to Roshar after the mess with the Dawnshards?

[Inky]

26 minutes ago, Raykoda said:

Way more importantly, if Kaladin is Tanavast's actual, physical descendant, then he must not have come from Ashyn with the rest of humanity since that was Odium's planet.  Do we have WoB's on migrations to Roshar after the mess with the Dawnshards?

We know that the Iriali came later, but besides that everyone (that's a human) is a descendant of the Ashynites 

[Argent]

I do like the more metaphorical interpretation - Kaladin specifically is the spiritual successor of Tanavast, with his views on honor. It is interesting that Dalinar doesn't qualify in the same way though...

[Inky]

19 minutes ago, Argent said:

I do like the more metaphorical interpretation - Kaladin specifically is the spiritual successor of Tanavast, with his views on honor. It is interesting that Dalinar doesn't qualify in the same way though...

It could be the whole "Reinterpretation theory" where Kaladin exemplifies Tanavast's idea of "Honor" but Dalinar sees it in a different light. It's why I think if he does reassemble Honor, he'll become Unity and alter the Shard's direction. 

[ZenBossanova]

If Kaladin is a descendent of Tanavast, then a large fraction of the population of Roshar would as well, like how much of China and even significant parts of Europe, have Genghis Khan in their lineage. That could be an enjoyable twist. 

[LerasiumMistborn]

On 5/18/2019 at 3:57 AM, kientha said:

I think its to do with windrunners being closest to the concept of Honor with the Bondspren and their oaths and so windrunners are children of Tavanast in how they act

Too simple for Kaladin. He's the main character, he must be the most special, and powerful, and important creature on the planet. It was always obvious for me that he will end up as new God.

As for why Dalinar doesn't count, this is because he's another "fake out" character that Sanderson loves to use to mislead the reader. Dalinar is used as a plot device, and that's his only purpose within the story. He's here only to create the illusion of importance around himself, to make readers think he IS important, while he really isn't, then the author will kill him only to pull out an "unexpected" plot twist for the sake of "unexpected" plot twists, and give all the power and importance for the Real main character, Kaladin.

[+Invocation]

5 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

"unexpected" plot twist for the sake of "unexpected" plot twists

If this was the case, it wouldn't be in the process of getting foreshadowed right now, would it? If that is a twist, it's because there's something to it. It won't have come out of nowhere, unlike some other twists in other people's writing I could mention. If that were to be the twist, there will be something along the line that shows us that Dalinar isn't what we think he is (which, honestly, I'd count his whole storyline in Oathbringer as relevant to that) and why it won't work. Hero of Ages spoilers (even though I'm pretty sure most people have read it, we're still in a different area):

Spoiler

It's like Sazed and Vin. They both had a part to play, and either one not fulfilling their part would result in it all going pear-shaped. Could be an echo here in SA of that.

 

[LerasiumMistborn]

21 hours ago, Invocation said:

If this was the case, it wouldn't be in the process of getting foreshadowed right now, would it? If that is a twist, it's because there's something to it. It won't have come out of nowhere, unlike some other twists in other people's writing I could mention. If that were to be the twist, there will be something along the line that shows us that Dalinar isn't what we think he is (which, honestly, I'd count his whole storyline in Oathbringer as relevant to that) and why it won't work. Hero of Ages spoilers (even though I'm pretty sure most people have read it, we're still in a different area):

  Reveal hidden contents

It's like Sazed and Vin. They both had a part to play, and either one not fulfilling their part would result in it all going pear-shaped. Could be an echo here in SA of that.

 

Dalinar's death was heavily foreshadowed since book 1. Book 3 was, imho, a rather poor attempt to fool readers and make them believe that Dalinar is somehow important, while it was obvious since book 1 that Kaladin is the main character of the series, another chosen one, while Dalinar is nothing more, but his side-kick and plot device.

Dalinar "doesn't work" just because the author decided to make Kaladin the main character, and not Dalinar. Narrative-wise Dalinar makes much more sense, but his status of a plot device isn't allowed him to progress.

Personally, I'm tired that Sanderson writes the same story over and over again. Create a character, give him a certain plotline, develop him, kill him, and give his role to another character. He did it more than one time, so it became a real boring cliche that makes the ending of Stormlight horribly predictable. There's no intrigue left. No matter how he will explain it (something like: Dalinar is a human garbage, a mass murderer, who must go amd kill himself to let others live, and pass his role to more deserving human), for me this is a betrayal of Dalinar.

[Calderis]

@LerasiumMistborn as has been stated in multiple threads now, Kaladin is not the "main character," Dalinar is Brandon's favorite character, and the things that supposedly foreshadow his death also foreshadow the events of Thaylen Field where he should have "died" in becoming Odium’s champion.

We do not know where Dalinar's arc goes from here. It isn't over. 

[+Invocation]

9 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Dalinar's death was heavily foreshadowed since book 1. Book 3 was, imho, a rather poor attempt to fool readers and make them believe that Dalinar is somehow important, while it was obvious since book 1 that Kaladin is the main character of the series, another chosen one, while Dalinar is nothing more, but his side-kick and plot device.

Dalinar "doesn't work" just because the author decided to make Kaladin the main character, and not Dalinar. Narrative-wise Dalinar makes much more sense, but his status of a plot device isn't allowed him to progress.

Personally, I'm tired that Sanderson writes the same story over and over again. Create a character, give him a certain plotline, develop him, kill him, and give his role to another character. He did it more than one time, so it became a real boring cliche that makes the ending of Stormlight horribly predictable. There's no intrigue left. No matter how he will explain it (something like: Dalinar is a human garbage, a mass murderer, who must go amd kill himself to let others live, and pass his role to more deserving human), for me this is a betrayal of Dalinar.

Narrative-wise, Dalinar makes minimal sense. The guy is old. He's had his fighting times. Kaladin makes more sense as a successor to Dalinar, learning from him and fulfilling his whole "save everyone" complex. Dalinar is important, not so much as the hero of the story, but as the Obi-Wan of the story, relatively speaking. An old mentor who has made mistakes with his life teaching a younger generation how to not make those same, or similar, or worse, mistakes. Dalinar will die, though, so in that we agree, but if he does, due to Sanderson's preferences, he will likely die gloriously and Sandman will have pulled one over on us all.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Invocation