Jasnah V Kaladin

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

What about if Kaladin increased the air pressure around Jasnah to several atmospheres?

Weird. That might actually be harder. The biggest dangers of excessive pressure are either sudden shifts, like the pressure wave of an explosion, followed by oxygen/nitrogen toxicity. It only takes a few atmospheres worth of pressure to cause problems in that case... But if that isn't a concern, divers handle pressures of up to 100 atmospheres (by mixing helium into the breathing mixture to mitigate the toxicity issue) 

So I honestly have no idea how that would work. 

[Karger]

The ozone would probably be poisonous and the entire mixture would be highly flammable.  Also the high nitrogen content would probably give Jasnah the bends effectively poisoning her. (Isn't it realy hard to burn away poison?  We know thugs can be taken down by it if it is strong enough)

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

The ozone would probably be poisonous and the entire mixture would be highly flammable.  Also the high nitrogen content would probably give Jasnah the bends effectively poisoning her. (Isn't it realy hard to burn away poison?  We know thugs can be taken down by it if it is strong enough)

No. Alcohol is viewed as a poison and burns away super easily. 

Cosmere spoilers 

Spoiler

Wayne burns away alcohol repeatedly, and burns away actual poison from a drink. 

Thugs can be taken down by poison, but they don't have "healing." their body can push through things that should kill it and their natural healing process is accelerated... But it still takes weeks to months to fully recover from wounds that should have been fatal, while continually burning pewter. 

Then we have the 5th Heightening, which doesn't even give healing, but makes you completely immune to poison and disease. 

Overall, I don't think the toxicity thing is a problem. 

[Karger]

Shallahn does have trouble getting rid of alcohol with limited stormlight and this would all be much worse as Jasnah's body tries to deal with several different potentially lethal toxicities at the same time.  Also she could be in serious trouble if Kaladin manages to ignite the mixture.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

Shallan had trouble with alcohol because she was using limited stormlight to repeatedly burn away large quantities of an alcahol that they don't typically sell because it's to strong. 

She essentially downed a jug of 180 proof grain alcohol. Let's assume that jug was the size of a handle. That 59.2 Oz or 1.75 liters. A lethal dose of alcohol is 5-8g per kg of weight. Which is roughly 30 drinks for the average person with standard alcohols, or about 1 liter of standard 80 proof spirits. So 0.4 of a liter of undiluted alcohol.

Shallan drank just under 4 times that amount of alcohol, with a wounded hand, all while "rationing" her stormlight usage so as not to give herself away or obviously heal the hand... While maintaining her illusion. 

I feel like if she weren't being an idiot, it wouldn't have been an issue. Compared to impalement and crossbow bolts in the head, completely crushed legs from being smashed by a thunserclast (and the Perp doesn't matter there as that was Lift)... A little poisoning seems paltry in comparison. 

Suppose this is all rather pointless though as it's subjective without an actual way to measure, but poison seems to be one of the easier things for Investiture to deal with in a person. 

[Karger]

I will deafer to you in this but what about burning?  Wayne does not have an easy time with it and I have found no evidence that incinerating a returned is particularly difficult.  In fact now that I think about it killing by burning is probably a smart way to take down a Radiant as it will destroy a lot of flesh and cause severe nerve damage.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Pathfinder

Realising one has a problem is often the first step to fixing it. Kaladin's alarming Stormlight usage can be curtailed with practice and understanding. However, looking at a contest between the two while taking into account their Surges, Jasnah's greatest advantage is versatility. It would be movement too but it seems the mechanics of Transportation isn't like say, Nightcrawler. Almost anything in her range can be changed provided she sees it coming and has time to overcome its initial Investiture. She can mostly rely on Plate for defense and if she gets overwhelmed she has a nearly fullproof escape route. Kaladin's big advantage, perhaps his only one against Jasnah, is movement in the Physical Realm. In addition to the enhanced movement Plate provides every Radiant he can fly. Unfortunately, everything he does when it comes to his advantage takes Stormlight to accomplish. The nature of his powers mean that he will use a lot of his Stormlight evading whatever Jasnah can cook up. 

The balance is that Kaladin doesn't use as much Stormlight to lash as Jasnah uses to soulcast. The way I envision it, Kaladin and Jasnah each have a conveyer belt where a rock appears in front of them once every second. If Jasnah is Soulcasting her rock while Kal is lashing his, Jasnah runs out faster because she has to overcome the Investiture of each rock she affects. Jasnah's Stormlight usage is therefore likely a learned behavior. The nature of her Surges allows this behavior to not be fatal. I don't see Stormlight conservation as an incredibly difficult skill to learn, nor one particularly granted to only certain Surgebinders. What is it about Surges that makes it so you don't believe Kaladin will ever get the hang of it? Yes he's shown little evidence of it so far but the last scenes show his awareness of the issues he faces. Again I think you downplay the role experience has in interpreting Kaladin's magical actions to date.

Kaladin will use more Stormlight than Jasnah in a given battle. He has the luxury to be able to do so and he depends on his Surges more. In most battles he will run out before Jasnah will. But his abilities can press her. And if he can run her dry even as he runs dry himself he wins. Unless you think an unpowered Jasnah beats an unpowered Kaladin.

Last, why couldn't Kaladin just punch through the aluminum box Jasnah would Soulcast around him with his Shardplate or cut through it with Syl? It stops magic but not momentum. It's going to act like a Faraday cage but if someone is holding a wrench and hitting it from the inside the cage will break. And Soulcasting something big enough to encase Kaladin in while he's moving is likely to take a very significant portion of her reserves. The aluminum dust to me is the better option.

Thing is from what I have seen of Kaladin time and time in the book, I do not see any time that he has realized he has a problem. All I see is the same issue coming up time and again, and Kaladin still doing the same thing afterwards. But regarding this point it looks like we have reached an impasse so I will agree to disagree. 

I readily agree Jasnah's means of teleportation is not precise. For her it would more be used as a get out of jail free card than as a means to actively attack. Willshapers on the other hand I think could potentially have nightcrawler like teleportation. That is why in a prior post I could see a willshaper getting the drop on Jasnah and stabbing her through the eye hole of her helm with a shardblade to kill her. The problem would be the willshaper would need to leave the blade in long enough to exhaust her stormlight, but I think there is enough potential ways of accomplishing that (wiggle the blade around once inside to do more damage, have the blade be reverse barbed so as to cause more damage when it is moved, make the shardblade a hammer and bring it down on her head with all your force, etc) that a willshaper could win doing so. To hopefully clarify things. My purpose in this is not to say Kaladin is weak, or his powers suck. They do not. I am however saying that the advantage of the versatility of soulcasting coupled with transportation, and finally Jasnah's capabilities with both powers would lead to her being able to counter and defeat Kaladin's uses of his powers. For instance Kaladin's skillset would be more effective against a truthwatcher, an edgedancer, stoneward or willshaper. All of those require getting in close to kill in varying degrees which as you said Kaladin benefits from. So whereas the willshaper would trump the elsecaller by getting in close before she could stop it, the windrunner would trump the willshaper by not being affected by cohesion by flying, and could hold off the willshaper when it teleported close. Hopefully that explained why I am going about this the way I am. 

Again, I do not think we have enough information to say that lashing intrinsically takes less stormlight than soulcasting. Lashing also needs to overcome the object's investiture to lash it, otherwise you would be able to lash shardplate. As to what makes me think he wouldn't learn is because as I said, to me, there is no difference whatsoever (in tone, in circumstance, in stakes) between the battle at Theylenah, and any other instance that he burned through his stormlight. So I do not see a reason for him to suddenly change tactics/view after that moment, when he did not for all the other moments. You see there is one. That is why at this juncture I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point. 

This portion confuses me, you wrote: "Kaladin will use more Stormlight than Jasnah in a given battle." then "In most battles he will run out before Jasnah will." but then you say "and if he can run her dry even as he runs dry himself he wins". If Kaladin would drain himself before Jasnah, then that would mean she would still have stormlight left over, which means he would be uninvested (or at least less than when holding stormlight) for her to soulcast him away. So the sentences seem to contradict themselves to me. One says he would blaze through it, but another says he would conserve it and outlast her. I'm starting to get lost here.

I believe it was mentioned in a prior post of mine, but the aluminum box idea was originally just towards a non-shardplate using version of Kaladin. That is why it switched to aluminum coarse dust going right in the face to be inhaled and get into the eyes. Though as long as jasnah understands enough about the metal, she could soulcast aluminum alloys, and soulcast a very thick box. Shardplate increases strength, but there is still a limit. I do not think shardplate could punch a hole through a wall of metal a foot thick. Maybe dent it possibly?

16 hours ago, Karger said:

I almost agree but you are both forgetting Kaladin's advantages as a combat trained and battle hardened soldier.  He can probably understand his opponent quicker adapt better and rise faster then Jasnah can after getting knocked over.  He also has the advantage in a no stomlight battle if they both run out due to this and a higher pain tolerance(that could certainly matter even if stormlight heals wounds). 

Kaladin has made plenty of tactical mistakes in combat, and has been caught flatfooted on numerous occasions. So he is just as fallible as Jasnah in that regard. But that is more opinion than something definable that we could reference. 

 

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's pressure... Kaladin can't produce air. He could hold a bubble of atmosphere around him by manipulating pressure to hold the air around him. The air inside would behave the same way air does, in that it would be breathed and carbon dioxide would be produced requiring it to be scrubbed away and oxygen produced... Which means this isn't a long term travel plan.

As such, I definitely think Kal could create a vacuum, but it would probably be complicated and massively expensive. You'd need to produce a massive pressure wave to force all of the atmosphere out of an area, the way that he used pressure to push aside the highstorm, and then maintain that in a sphere around and area to keep it all out. 

I don't think there's any possible way this would be effective again anyone who can draw in stormlight, because the rate of consumption of stormlight to hold your breath has got to be less expensive than that mess. 

 

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

They expend stormlight faster breathing normally. They don't just breath it all out. 

First off, the minimal but cumulative damage of holding their breath would be mitigated by stormlight. Second, they could simply breath out once, lose a tiny bit of stormlight... And then have no atmosphere to inhale and be not breathing and then not expending extra stormlight.

 

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

This is an exaggeration. The problem with holding your breath is that it will rupture the alveoli of the lungs. The damage itself is minimal but the effect it has is decidedly fatal. Still shouldn't be an issue for a Radiant. 

 

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Weird. That might actually be harder. The biggest dangers of excessive pressure are either sudden shifts, like the pressure wave of an explosion, followed by oxygen/nitrogen toxicity. It only takes a few atmospheres worth of pressure to cause problems in that case... But if that isn't a concern, divers handle pressures of up to 100 atmospheres (by mixing helium into the breathing mixture to mitigate the toxicity issue) 

So I honestly have no idea how that would work. 

Thanks for the info about pressure and how it interacts with the human body! Always love learning new things! Very interesting!

 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

The ozone would probably be poisonous and the entire mixture would be highly flammable.  Also the high nitrogen content would probably give Jasnah the bends effectively poisoning her. (Isn't it realy hard to burn away poison?  We know thugs can be taken down by it if it is strong enough)

But then Jasnah could just soulcast the ozone into breathable oxygen. 

 

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

Shallan had trouble with alcohol because she was using limited stormlight to repeatedly burn away large quantities of an alcahol that they don't typically sell because it's to strong. 

She essentially downed a jug of 180 proof grain alcohol. Let's assume that jug was the size of a handle. That 59.2 Oz or 1.75 liters. A lethal dose of alcohol is 5-8g per kg of weight. Which is roughly 30 drinks for the average person with standard alcohols, or about 1 liter of standard 80 proof spirits. So 0.4 of a liter of undiluted alcohol.

Shallan drank just under 4 times that amount of alcohol, with a wounded hand, all while "rationing" her stormlight usage so as not to give herself away or obviously heal the hand... While maintaining her illusion. 

I feel like if she weren't being an idiot, it wouldn't have been an issue. Compared to impalement and crossbow bolts in the head, completely crushed legs from being smashed by a thunserclast (and the Perp doesn't matter there as that was Lift)... A little poisoning seems paltry in comparison. 

Suppose this is all rather pointless though as it's subjective without an actual way to measure, but poison seems to be one of the easier things for Investiture to deal with in a person. 

Interesting!

12 hours ago, Karger said:

I will deafer to you in this but what about burning?  Wayne does not have an easy time with it and I have found no evidence that incinerating a returned is particularly difficult.  In fact now that I think about it killing by burning is probably a smart way to take down a Radiant as it will destroy a lot of flesh and cause severe nerve damage.

I think burning takes a bit longer because you have to regrow brand new flesh vs sealing prior wounds, or expunging toxins. That is part of the reason why I think a dustbringer or skybreaker would have a better chance against an elsecaller than a windrunner. If you are saying the burns by changing the ozone in such a way as to be flammable, then I refer again to Jasnah just soulcasting it to fresh oxygen preventing combustion. The surge of division on the other hand breaks molecular bonds that (although I do not fully understand the process, so if anyone can better explain it, I would love to hear it), some how allows you to literally set anything on fire. Which I could see working against Jasnah. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The surge of division on the other hand breaks molecular bonds that (although I do not fully understand the process, so if anyone can better explain it, I would love to hear it), some how allows you to literally set anything on fire. Which I could see working against Jasnah.

It doesn't set anything on fire. Some things it merely decays. I think this is a compositional issue. If you split molecular bonds you reduce things to their base elements. Many many things contain highly flammable elements that would ignite despite seeming like they shouldn't. Water for example would be reduced to hydrogen ad oxygen... Add any heat, which the splitting process may do on its own, and you get nasty flames. 

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It doesn't set anything on fire. Some things it merely decays. I think this is a compositional issue. If you split molecular bonds you reduce things to their base elements. Many many things contain highly flammable elements that would ignite despite seeming like they shouldn't. Water for example would be reduced to hydrogen ad oxygen... Add any heat, which the splitting process may do on its own, and you get nasty flames. 

Not being critical, I am asking genuine questions because I would like to understand the function better. So you are saying an external ignition source needs to be introduced when a dustbringer does their thing? How does Malata do the burn etching on the wood, and Amaram seemingly ignite the air when battling Kaladin? Or are you saying the mixture would be so volatile, that just a normal temperature level would be enough to ignite it? 

[Calderis]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Not being critical, I am asking genuine questions because I would like to understand the function better. So you are saying an external ignition source needs to be introduced when a dustbringer does their thing? How does Malata do the burn etching on the wood, and Amaram seemingly ignite the air when battling Kaladin? Or are you saying the mixture would be so volatile, that just a normal temperature level would be enough to ignite it? 

Dustbringers have two Surges. Division and abrasion. Friction would be a very simple way to introduce heat if used in tandem. It may even be an instinctive use. 

And an external ignition source may not be needed at all, as the energy release from splitting the bonds themselves may generate heat. We haven't seen it used much yet so I don't have answers. I just think that, by what division is described to do, that if there aren't any flammable elements in the composition of the matter, your going to see it crumble/rot/fall apart without the fire. 

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Dustbringers have two Surges. Division and abrasion. Friction would be a very simple way to introduce heat if used in tandem. It may even be an instinctive use. 

And an external ignition source may not be needed at all, as the energy release from splitting the bonds themselves may generate heat. We haven't seen it used much yet so I don't have answers. I just think that, by what division is described to do, that if there aren't any flammable elements in the composition of the matter, your going to see it crumble/rot/fall apart without the fire. 

So then the implication based on what you are saying is when Malata made the etching in the wood, she was using both surges, not just division since it smoked and smelled of burning? Hmmm, makes me wonder then how the skybreaker division would manifest since they wouldn't have abrasion to ignite it. Not sure how that surge would benefit them while flying in the air. This also causes a problem for my idea that a dustbringer or skybreaker would be able to take on jasnah, because whatever they "break" she could just soulcast into a non-flammable composition. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think burning takes a bit longer because you have to regrow brand new flesh vs sealing prior wounds, or expunging toxins. That is part of the reason why I think a dustbringer or skybreaker would have a better chance against an elsecaller than a windrunner. If you are saying the burns by changing the ozone in such a way as to be flammable, then I refer again to Jasnah just soulcasting it to fresh oxygen preventing combustion

When speaking of combustion I only thinking about how fire behaves in increased pressure environment.  Pressure is not something that Jasnah can deal with by soulcasting she could soulcast the air to something inert but that is a realy bad idea because she would likely suffocate without realizing it as her brain is starved of oxegen.  All Kaladin needs to do to start a fire in this environment is to make a spark.  He can do this any number of ways including just lashing a rock at the ground realy fast.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Karger

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

This portion confuses me, you wrote: "Kaladin will use more Stormlight than Jasnah in a given battle." then "In most battles he will run out before Jasnah will." but then you say "and if he can run her dry even as he runs dry himself he wins". If Kaladin would drain himself before Jasnah, then that would mean she would still have stormlight left over, which means he would be uninvested (or at least less than when holding stormlight) for her to soulcast him away. So the sentences seem to contradict themselves to me. One says he would blaze through it, but another says he would conserve it and outlast her. I'm starting to get lost here.

I was just pointing out that a fight against Jasnah will cost Kaladin a lot in terms of Stormlight. He may be able to mitigate this somewhat with practice and experience (in fact that's exactly what I believe he'll do), his strengths lie in incredible movement through Lashings. That means he's going to have to spend a lot to win. To beat Jasnah he's going to have to force her to burn through her stockpile as rapidly as he's burning through his own. Since I don't see a way a Jasnah filled with Stormlight loses to any one opponent that isn't a Shard, Sliver or Splinter, Kaladin only wins once he forces her to go empty. And if she's empty then it doesn't matter if Kaladin has run dry as well. Jasnah wins most battles imo because Kaladin won't be able to reliably force her to burn through her reserves before he does. Either that or she fools him into thinking that she's empty when she isn't. 

Punching through a wall made of Aluminum a foot thick would probably be easier than punching through a wall made of steel or granite with Shardplate. Unless it's being alloyed with something else to strengthen its integrity, similar to what Aluminum guns and bullets are made of in Mistborn Era 2, pure aluminum is going to be pretty weak. Do the inhabitants of Roshar know enough of metallurgy to be able to reliably explain the concept, so that Jasnah can reproduce it? And how well does an aluminum alloy block kinetic Investiture as compared to pure aluminum? Lastly, there's a WOB out there that I believe says it's easier to soulcast pure metals than their alloys. It's presumably why when Heralds prepared humans for Desolations, they set the Soulcasters to casting bronze weapons instead of steel ones. Is it harder because it uses more Stormlight to produce or does it take longer or is it difficult to conceptualize in a coherent enough way for a caster to understand?

Edited March 15, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

When speaking of combustion I only thinking about how fire behaves in increased pressure environment.  Pressure is not something that Jasnah can deal with by soulcasting she could soulcast the air to something inert but that is a realy bad idea because she would likely suffocate without realizing it as her brain is starved of oxegen.  All Kaladin needs to do to start a fire in this environment is to make a spark.  He can do this any number of ways including just lashing a rock at the ground realy fast.

I may need @Calderis to ring on this a bit because he seems to understand the functions of pressure better, but pressure affects oxygen density. That is why it is harder to breathe the higher up you are. So from what I understand, increasing pressure would increase oxygen content but I do not think it would result in oxygen bonding as O3 instead of O2. O3 being explosively flammable which is what I think you are going for? So that is why even if that was possible, I think Jasnah just soulcasting it to the pure essence of vapor breathable air would negate that. But again, I readily admit there is a lot I do not fully understand about pressure, and I am not sure I fully understand what you are getting at. 

Regarding dropping a rock, the type of rock matters. theoretically all rocks could create a spark, but the reason certain ones are selected is due to being able to hold up enough to the force to allow the resulting friction to create the spark. Most rocks would end up crumbling or just breaking. So the action of lashing a rock at a the ground really fast would not by itself cause enough of a spark to cause ignition. It would need to be flint, or in a similar family. Also back in oathbringer, Kaladin used several lashes to hit the fused resulting in a blow that just hurt the fused, so by extension I would imagine to create the effect you are offering, the number of lashes would have to be vastly greater. 

14 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I was just pointing out that a fight against Jasnah will cost Kaladin a lot in terms of Stormlight. He may be able to mitigate this somewhat with practice and experience (in fact that's exactly what I believe he'll do), his strengths lie in incredible movement through Lashings. That means he's going to have to spend a lot to win. To beat Jasnah he's going to have to force her to burn through her stockpile as rapidly as he's burning through his own. Since I don't see a way a Jasnah filled with Stormlight loses to any one opponent that isn't a Shard, Sliver or Splinter, Kaladin only wins once he forces her to go empty. And if she's empty then it doesn't matter if Kaladin has run dry as well. Jasnah wins most battles imo because Kaladin won't be able to reliably force her to burn through her reserves before he does. Either that or she fools him into thinking that she's empty when she isn't. 

Punching through a wall made of Aluminum a foot thick would probably be easier than punching through a wall made of steel or granite with Shardplate. Unless it's being alloyed with something else to strengthen its integrity, similar to what Aluminum guns and bullets are made of in Mistborn Era 2, pure aluminum is going to be pretty weak. Do the inhabitants of Roshar know enough of metallurgy to be able to reliably explain the concept, so that Jasnah can reproduce it? And how well does an aluminum alloy block kinetic Investiture as compared to pure aluminum? Lastly, there's a WOB out there that I believe says it's easier to soulcast pure metals than their alloys. It's presumably why when Heralds prepared humans for Desolations, they set the Soulcasters to casting bronze weapons instead of steel ones. Is it harder because it uses more Stormlight to produce or does it take longer or is it difficult to conceptualize in a coherent enough way for a caster to understand?

I could see Jasnah potentially fooling Kaladin as we see her do exactly that by hiding infused gemstones sewn into her clothing that enabled her to survive her encounter with the ghostbloods. As to the rest, I still disagree but like I said, I do not really see us meeting in the middle on this. I would love to, honestly I would, but I just do not see Kaladin based on how I have seen him act would do so. You feel based on how you have seen him act he would. At this point we would just be repeating our same arguments as there isn't anything beyond what we have already said that would be concrete enough to convince the other. So I respect your belief that Kaladin would learn to employ his stormlight in the way you posit, I just disagree. I wish you luck with your theory! Who knows, we may see exactly that in the next book with Kaladin attaining his 4th oath. 

That is why in that post I mentioned about being able to soulcast the alloy. I believe I was the one that posted that WoB. The default is the pure metal. You have to intend to soulcast the alloy, but it is possible. So I was suggesting she would soulcast an aluminum alloy a foot thick on each wall. Brandon has said a thin sleeve of aluminum was enough to block. I think there was also a WoB that said the rough amount of aluminum would not need to be much but I would have to dig for it to be sure. 

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I may need @Calderis to ring on this a bit because he seems to understand the functions of pressure better, but pressure affects oxygen density.

I am not going to pretend I understand pressure much better than anyone else here, I'm just decent at looking up information I want to learn about. 

That said, the way that O³ is produced, both naturally and in chemical processes makes me think that pressure isn't going to do a very good job of it at all... But division would oddly enough. 

0³ is formed in the atmosphere (and mimicked in manufacturing by alternative means) by solar radiation impacting, and splitting, oxygen molecules. When the now freed oxygen atom strikes an existing O² molecule, it binds and creates ozone.

So without splitting the molecules of 0², you're not getting O³. 

I've learned a lot because of this thread. 

[Quantus]

For what it's worth, exposing oxygen to high voltage electricity is a great and relatively easy way to make Ozone, so if any radiants can mimic the lightning attacks of Stormform they'd have the easiest route to Ozone, but it's would be sort of redundant as an attack if you can already throw lightning. 

If you're goal is to turn oxygen into an explosive with pressure, a viable route for that is actually going to be air liquefaction: if you pressurize and then release air, it cools down relative to the pressure difference, and you can do this over and over again in a cycle until it eventually liquefies the air itself.  It's entirely possible to do this in a hobby setting to create your own liquid nitrogen (plans available online), though it's considered extremely dangerous because the oxygen actually starts to liquefy before the Nitrogen does, and liquid oxygen is wildly explosive. But if that's your goal, job done.  Generally not something that happens quickly so it would take a lot of magic to make it viable mid-battle, at which point you could probably just make a pure pressure explosion more along the lines of an exploding steam boiler or other pressure vessel. 

God I love these sorts of threads...

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I could see Jasnah potentially fooling Kaladin as we see her do exactly that by hiding infused gemstones sewn into her clothing that enabled her to survive her encounter with the ghostbloods. As to the rest, I still disagree but like I said, I do not really see us meeting in the middle on this. I would love to, honestly I would, but I just do not see Kaladin based on how I have seen him act would do so. You feel based on how you have seen him act he would. At this point we would just be repeating our same arguments as there isn't anything beyond what we have already said that would be concrete enough to convince the other. So I respect your belief that Kaladin would learn to employ his stormlight in the way you posit, I just disagree. I wish you luck with your theory! Who knows, we may see exactly that in the next book with Kaladin attaining his 4th oath. 

Unless Brandon is nice enough to give us a fair avengers style fight between the two parties I agree that their is no way we will ever come to consensus as to who would win.  (Fingers crossed that this happens by the way it would be amazing.)  Even if we do get a fight we could argue endlessly about various factors that make said fight fair or unfair so it might not be conclusive.  I would love it if we somehow fond some kind of evidence that would settle the debate for us but that is never going to happen so it is fine to agree to disagree.   This is a page of speculation not absolute truth as long as we are careful in our research and respectful of each other I think that we will benefit from this discussion.

As to air pressure we don't need ozone to make a environment highly flammable.  Fire will burn faster and higher in any high atmosphere area.  (Try getting a fire started at a room temperature mount Everest and you will be disappointed as their is not enough oxygen to sustain such a reaction).  The inverse of that means if it dangerously easy to start a fire in a high pressure environment which is why submarines have extensive fire safety measures.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Karger

[Bigmikey357]

Fire is going to be a dangerous tool on Roshar. The oxygen content there is significantly higher than here on earth. It's partly why they rely so much on gems and Stormlight for illumination, glowing money instead of say, candles. 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Fire is going to be a dangerous tool on Roshar. The oxygen content there is significantly higher than here on earth. It's partly why they rely so much on gems and Stormlight for illumination, glowing money instead of say, candles. 

It also means that starting fires is much easier and that they will be extraordinarily hard to stop.  Even harder at high pressures. 

[Coyote_Durango]

Kaladin's a rushdown character, and Jasnah's a zoning character. So all he needs to do to win is have patience and good footsies, walk her into the corner and hit her with a bunch of mixups.

[Karger]

On 3/15/2019 at 5:11 PM, Coyote_Durango said:

Kaladin's a rushdown character, and Jasnah's a zoning character. So all he needs to do to win is have patience and good footsies, walk her into the corner and hit her with a bunch of mixups.

The only problem with this is that Jasnah can recover from some pretty serious damage, can sort of teleport (maybe) and also has impressive defensive options.  Still if Kaladin can crack her plate and get a hit in then she might not have enough stormlight to both repair the wound and get away via teleportation or elsecalling.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

On 3/15/2019 at 2:30 PM, Calderis said:

I am not going to pretend I understand pressure much better than anyone else here, I'm just decent at looking up information I want to learn about. 

That said, the way that O³ is produced, both naturally and in chemical processes makes me think that pressure isn't going to do a very good job of it at all... But division would oddly enough. 

0³ is formed in the atmosphere (and mimicked in manufacturing by alternative means) by solar radiation impacting, and splitting, oxygen molecules. When the now freed oxygen atom strikes an existing O² molecule, it binds and creates ozone.

So without splitting the molecules of 0², you're not getting O³. 

I've learned a lot because of this thread. 

Glad to hear. I am as well. I did some more reading, and from what I understand O2 and O3 by themselves aren't combustible and would not fuel a flame as it were. As in from what I am getting, just having O3 in the air, and creating a spark is not going to result in all that O3 being engulfed in flame. All it will result in is a larger spark/flash of flame immediately around the spark. In order to get a huge burst of flame, Kaladin would need a combustible fuel source to begin with, such as oil. Then the increased oxygen levels, or O3 would result in a big explosion of fire when the oil was ignited. So as I am reading I am getting more the sense that pressure would not be able to accomplish what Karger is positing, and I am not sure it would even accomplish that with Division (assuming that is how division functions, creating O3, then applying friction for a spark. not saying you are saying that is how it works, just thinking aloud).

On 3/15/2019 at 2:59 PM, Quantus said:

For what it's worth, exposing oxygen to high voltage electricity is a great and relatively easy way to make Ozone, so if any radiants can mimic the lightning attacks of Stormform they'd have the easiest route to Ozone, but it's would be sort of redundant as an attack if you can already throw lightning. 

If you're goal is to turn oxygen into an explosive with pressure, a viable route for that is actually going to be air liquefaction: if you pressurize and then release air, it cools down relative to the pressure difference, and you can do this over and over again in a cycle until it eventually liquefies the air itself.  It's entirely possible to do this in a hobby setting to create your own liquid nitrogen (plans available online), though it's considered extremely dangerous because the oxygen actually starts to liquefy before the Nitrogen does, and liquid oxygen is wildly explosive. But if that's your goal, job done.  Generally not something that happens quickly so it would take a lot of magic to make it viable mid-battle, at which point you could probably just make a pure pressure explosion more along the lines of an exploding steam boiler or other pressure vessel. 

God I love these sorts of threads...

I love these kind of threads too! So would the liquid oxygen still require to a spark to explode? Also is my understanding that I wrote above to Calderis accurate? I want to make sure I am understanding the concepts correctly. 

On 3/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, Karger said:

Unless Brandon is nice enough to give us a fair avengers style fight between the two parties I agree that their is no way we will ever come to consensus as to who would win.  (Fingers crossed that this happens by the way it would be amazing.)  Even if we do get a fight we could argue endlessly about various factors that make said fight fair or unfair so it might not be conclusive.  I would love it if we somehow fond some kind of evidence that would settle the debate for us but that is never going to happen so it is fine to agree to disagree.   This is a page of speculation not absolute truth as long as we are careful in our research and respectful of each other I think that we will benefit from this discussion.

As to air pressure we don't need ozone to make a environment highly flammable.  Fire will burn faster and higher in any high atmosphere area.  (Try getting a fire started at a room temperature mount Everest and you will be disappointed as their is not enough oxygen to sustain such a reaction).  The inverse of that means if it dangerously easy to start a fire in a high pressure environment which is why submarines have extensive fire safety measures.

Well Brandon has confirmed that there wouldn't be an avengers style coming together team, but I do think I recall him confirming various magic systems would meet and there would be potentially conflict. 

So assuming I understand things correctly, then the issue I mentioned in my discussion with Calderis would come up here. oxygen by itself, regardless the concentration (except perhaps liquidification as Quantus mentioned) is not combustible by itself. It only seems to enhance whatever inherent explosive or burnable traits of whatever fuel you are burning at that time. So Kaladin would still need materials outside his own powers to create the kind of explosion you are talking about. A spark alone (seems like) wouldn't do it. 

On 3/15/2019 at 4:57 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Fire is going to be a dangerous tool on Roshar. The oxygen content there is significantly higher than here on earth. It's partly why they rely so much on gems and Stormlight for illumination, glowing money instead of say, candles. 

Basically when I said the Karger above. The flame itself would be greater, but Kaladin would still need materials to fuel it. Increasing the oxygen content and then sparking it, seems like it wouldn't make the effect you both think. It would make a stronger burst/spark effect, but that would be the extent of it. All the oxygen in the air wouldn't suddenly combust and go up in flames. 

On 3/15/2019 at 5:04 PM, Karger said:

It also means that starting fires is much easier and that they will be extraordinarily hard to stop.  Even harder at high pressures. 

True, but you would still need the materials to get that started in the first place which a spark from two rocks alone would not (seems to me) accomplish that. 

On 3/15/2019 at 5:11 PM, Coyote_Durango said:

Kaladin's a rushdown character, and Jasnah's a zoning character. So all he needs to do to win is have patience and good footsies, walk her into the corner and hit her with a bunch of mixups.

Karger already replied with a lot of what I would have said below. I will add a bit myself. 

On 3/15/2019 at 6:11 PM, Karger said:

The only problem with this is that Jasnah can recover from some pretty serious damage, can sort of teleport (maybe) and also has impressive defensive options.  Still if Kaladin can crack her plate and get a hit in then she might not have enough stormlight to both repair the wound and get away via teleportation or elsecalling.

Agree on all points regarding Jasnah's capabilities. Those same capabilities is what makes me think it would be very difficult for Kaladin to get the kind of power in the stone lashings, or close enough to accomplish such a hit. 

[Calderis]

@Pathfinder yeah, Oxygen is classified as an accelerant, not a combustible.

As far as division goes, I was just positing that it should be able to make 0³ fairly easily, because if you use it and it splits the 0² molecules, at least skme of those are then going to impact uneffected O² and combine. 

Not sure how easily they would just recombine into O² by themselves though. Guess I'll need to go look that up. 

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder yeah, Oxygen is classified as an accelerant, not a combustible.

As far as division goes, I was just positing that it should be able to make 0³ fairly easily, because if you use it and it splits the 0² molecules, at least skme of those are then going to impact uneffected O² and combine. 

Not sure how easily they would just recombine into O² by themselves though. Guess I'll need to go look that up. 

Hmmmm, maybe water would work best with dustbringers? Split the molecular bonds of H2O, and you get two hydrogen atoms which is highly combustible. In that case then all you would need is the friction portion of abrasion to set it alight. Be careful not to catch a Dustbringer on a rainy day lol

[Karger]

What happens if shardplate Kaladin goes in for some kind of grappling move?  Pinning him is almost impossible as any direction can be down soulcasting is not going to help(Kal is directly resitant and transforming the area is dangerous) and I am not sure if the way Jasnah teleports would allow her to escape a hold(she might take him with her).

Edited March 18, 2019 by Karger