Karger

Jasnah V Kaladin

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In this thread we will be comparing two of everyone's favorite radients including their power levels strategies and skillets.

Unless Brandon is nice enough to give us a fair avengers style fight between the two parties I belive that their is no way we will ever come to consensus as to who would win.  (Fingers crossed that this happens by the way it would be amazing.)  Even if we do get a fight we could argue endlessly about various factors that make said fight fair or unfair so it might not be conclusive.  I would love it if we somehow fond some kind of evidence that would settle the debate for us but that is never going to happen so it is fine to agree to disagree.   This is a page of speculation not absolute truth as long as we are careful in our research and respectful of each other I think that we will benefit from this discussion. 

Edited by Karger
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1 minute ago, Karger said:

In this thread we will be comparing two of everyone's favorite radients including their power levels strategies and skillets.

Do you have any perimeters for the comparison (such as location, amount of stormlight, are they facing each other, or they facing enemies) or can whoever contributes name any?

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Their abilities, in a straight fight it is hard to argue against Kaladin winning just by superior combat training and that is not a fair comparison.

Edited by Karger
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6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Their abilities, in a straight fight it is hard to argue against Kaladin winning just by superior combat training and that is not a fair comparison.

Could you elaborate? So are you saying take Person A, give them transportation and transformation. Take Person B, give them gravitation and adhesion. Show person A and person B using the surges to accomplish....what?

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To make things simpler lets say various military objectives given certain resources.

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Kaladin would probably beat Jasnah in a fight. She can’t soulcast him I think. 

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if it was straight kaladin vs Jasnah, both given an extremely large, but not infinite, amount of stormlight, Jasnah would win, her soulcasting would be able to just box kaladin in, then soulcast the air inside to fire or water or something, then wait for Kaladins stormlight to run out. and if Kal cuts his way out she can put him in another box and repeat. 

Edited by Turtle373
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Soulcasting Kaladin would be virtually impossible as he is both invested and incredibly stubborn.  If you try to put Kaladin in a box he can probably use Syl's nature scene to locate her and then make a spear throw assuming he has not killed her while she was trying to soulcast which without Dalinar pulling the realms together is difficult.

Edited by Karger
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11 minutes ago, Karger said:

To make things simpler lets say various military objectives given certain resources.

Hmmm. Ok, I will put forward an example and you let me know if I am going in the right direction

Troop movement. Over the short race Kaladin wins because his surge is more precise. He lashes the willing, and flies to the location and lands. Jasnah wins the long race because although elsecalling is not a precise science, even if you do not end up exactly where you want to, if your target is on the other side of the planet, you can still theoretically walk the remaining distance in time before kaladin would arrive

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Turtle373 said:

if it was straight kaladin vs Jasnah, both given an extremely large, but not infinite, amount of stormlight, Jasnah would win, her soulcasting would be able to just box kaladin in, then either fill it with fire or water or something, then wait for Kaladins stormlight to run out. and if Kal cuts his way out she can put him in another box and repeat. 

Could soulcast the box as aluminum. Shardblades cannot cut aluminum. 

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Soulcasting Kaladin would be virtually impossible as he is both invested and incredibly stubborn.

Ehhhh, if she had enough stormlight to overpower the amount he had, it is possible. Practical? No. But certainly possible. Just like Kaladin could use lashings on her if he had enough stormlight to overpower the amount she had. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Troop movement. Over the short race Kaladin wins because his surge is more precise. He lashes the willing, and flies to the location and lands. Jasnah wins the long race because although elsecalling is not a precise science, even if you do not end up exactly where you want to, if your target is on the other side of the planet, you can still theoretically walk the remaining distance in time before kaladin would arrive

Good example but I must disagree.  We have never seen Jasnah use her other surge to do anything other then move between realms and that is not useful for troop movement unless you are crossing water and know about a perpendicularity on the other side.

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Just now, Pathfinder said:

Could soulcast the box as aluminum. Shardblades cannot cut aluminum.

perfect, Jasnah definitely wins now

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Good example but I must disagree.  We have never seen Jasnah use her other surge to do anything other then move between realms and that is not useful for troop movement unless you are crossing water and know about a perpendicularity on the other side.

We have WoB that elsecallers make their own mini perpendicularity when they use the surge of transportation. We know oathgates use the surge of transportation and they can teleport groups from one location to another. The book implies to me that the two spren in the oathgate that we meet are an elsecaller spren and a willshaper spren. So i think we have a pretty good indication on how transportation works. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Could soulcast the box as aluminum. Shardblades cannot cut aluminum. 

Nor is it particularly strong physically it is also hard to soulcast and once done should could not harm Kaladin at all because the aluminum would shield him from both her surges.

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Just now, Karger said:

Nor is it particularly strong physically it is also hard to soulcast and once done should could not harm Kaladin at all because the aluminum would shield him from both her surges.

I am not speaking of aluminum foil here. You could soulcast an aluminum box a foot thick on each side and Kaladin isn't breaking out of that even with shardplate. Suffocating would use up the stormlight he has trying to sustain him without oxygen. Though he could theoretically make air with adhesion. It would really be a waiting game for him to use up his stormlight and die. 

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3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We have WoB that elsecallers make their own mini perpendicularity when they use the surge of transportation. We know oathgates use the surge of transportation. To book implies to me that the two spren in the oathgate that we meet are an elsecaller spren and a willshaper spren. So i think we have a pretty good indication on how transportation works. 

Yes but those spren were enormous and the ancient radiants only made 10 of them despite the fact that more of them would clearly have been beneficial implying they work differently or more efficiently then the normal surge.  Also Kaladin is faster stronger and better trained I assume that he could beet her off the draw.

Edited by Karger
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Since I'm pretty sure Jasnah has Plate, and is much smarter and more practical than Kaladin, I think she would win. We've seen her in battle, she's not a wuss.

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13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ehhhh, if she had enough stormlight to overpower the amount he had, it is possible. Practical? No. But certainly possible. Just like Kaladin could use lashings on her if he had enough stormlight to overpower the amount she had. 

Exactly don't think either option is practical.

I have the utmost respect for Jasnah's awesomeness and I know that she is not a wuss but she has not spent many years on the front lines of battle or undergone intense training in combat (that we know of).    We also don't know that she has her plate that is speculation.

Edited by Karger
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2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Since I'm pretty sure Jasnah has Plate, and is much smarter and more practical than Kaladin, I think she would win. We've seen her in battle, she's not a wuss.

She can turn people directly into greasy smoke, fire, or crystal. And has done so, multiple times. That's terrifying.

I'm sure it's harder (maybe impossible?) to Soulcast a person who's full of Investiture, i.e., if Kaladin held a lot of Stormlight. But given enough Stormlight herself, based on what we saw at Thaylen Fields, she could just turn the air around Kaladin into stone and trap him until he ran out. If it were form-fitting enough of a stone wrapping, even summoning Syl as a Blade wouldn't leave him enough room to carve his way out.

Granted, the prioximity of the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms at Thaylen Fields may have enhanced her skillset in particular, but every time I re-read those parts of Oathbringer I seriously think she's the most dangerous Radiant of them all, and not just because she is likely to be the most advanced in Ideals of any on Team Dalinar. (Since Nalan is a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal.)

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We know we've seen the "soon aftermath" of someone using Plate. The only one that qualifies for that is Jasnah.

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Air is not that dense Jasnah would have to pack it together to form enough stone to soulcast it into enough stone to actually encumber Kaladin (conservation of mass does apply) meaning that Kaladin could push it away with adhesion leaving them both in vacuum if necessary.  All of this is presaged on the idea of Kaladin not taking Jasnah out on the first shot.

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15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes but those spren were enormous and the ancient radiants only made 10 of them despite the fact that more of them would clearly have been beneficial implying they work differently or more efficiently then the normal surge.  Also Kaladin is faster stronger and better trained I assume that he could beet her off the draw.

Well we know 10 is a big number to the knights, and that there were 10 heraldic kingdoms so I do not think it is a stretch to think they made 10 just because they made 10, not because they couldn't make more. Honestly the one thing I would concede is i think the setting up of the oathgate enables confirmed travel from one specific location to another while elsecalling is as brandon said, not an exact art. So I would imagine you are trying to teleport to lets say hearthstone, but you end up maybe several miles outside it, but you are definitely closer than you were before. You are just not able to pinpoint teleporting into a specific building. At least that was my reading of it. As to better on the draw, the only surge Kaladin seems to be able to do at ranged is adhesion, and when Szeth used it, it still seemed to be a spray a short distance away, while Jasnah can and has soulcasted at distance. 

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Exactly don't think either option is practical.

I have the utmost respect for Jasnah's awesomeness and I know that she is not a wuss but she has not spent many years on the front lines of battle or undergone intense training in combat (that we know of).    We also don't know that she has her plate that is speculation.

Well if we are looking purely about surges, do you want to discount plate for both parties? Should we discount sprenblades as well or, keep them since it is natural to both?

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

She can turn people directly into greasy smoke, fire, or crystal. And has done so, multiple times. That's terrifying.

I'm sure it's harder (maybe impossible?) to Soulcast a person who's full of Investiture, i.e., if Kaladin held a lot of Stormlight. But given enough Stormlight herself, based on what we saw at Thaylen Fields, she could just turn the air around Kaladin into stone and trap him until he ran out. If it were form-fitting enough of a stone wrapping, even summoning Syl as a Blade wouldn't leave him enough room to carve his way out.

Granted, the prioximity of the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms at Thaylen Fields may have enhanced her skillset in particular, but every time I re-read those parts of Oathbringer I seriously think she's the most dangerous Radiant of them all, and not just because she is likely to be the most advanced in Ideals of any on Team Dalinar. (Since Nalan is a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal.)

That is a good point about soulcasting a "sheath" directly around him. I wonder, does a person's natural investiture act like a "force field" where it is difficult to soulcast directly around them, or not? Cause you could soulcast all sorts of restraints on a person easily if there is no resistance there. 

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6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Air is not that dense Jasnah would have to pack it together to form enough stone to soulcast it into enough stone to actually encumber Kaladin (conservation of mass does apply) meaning that Kaladin could push it away with adhesion leaving them both in vacuum if necessary.  All of this is presaged on the idea of Kaladin not taking Jasnah out on the first shot.

I think you misunderstood what @robardin was saying. Basically imagine you were in a form fitting leotard. Then imagine that leotard became stone. It is directly against your skin. What air are you pushing? Hope that clarified. 

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Stone is not flexible and that form fitting leotard would weigh the same as an ordinary leotard I would expect the stone to crumble like sand as soon as Kaladin moved.  To soulcast something out of the air Jasnah has to have the air push itself together as it forms a solid.  If Kaladin understands this he can push back by lowering the pressure locally with adhesion.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Stone is not flexible and that form fitting leotard would weigh the same as an ordinary leotard I would expect the stone to crumble like sand as soon as Kaladin moved.  To soulcast something out of the air Jasnah has to have the air push itself together as it forms a solid.  If Kaladin understands this he can push back by lowering the pressure locally with adhesion.

Correct me if I am wrong @RShara but my impression of soulcasting is that the caster rearranges the atoms to take a form. When Jasnah spoke about soulcasting air to stone, it was difficult because of convincing the axia (Brandon explained axia was their way of calling atoms. I think the term is axia, don't have a chance to check to confirm right now but I will later) to link up. But soulcasting from what we have seen is instantaneous. The matter changes from one form to another. She is not compressing the air. She is taking air, and turning it into a completely different matter. Density matters because it does take more air to make the same volume of stone per density, but that is why there is a sensation of air rushing in. Other air is rushing in to fill the vacuum of the air that was instantly changed into a solid. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Correct me if I am wrong @RShara but my impression of soulcasting is that the caster rearranges the atoms to take a form. Brandon has commented when Jasnah spoke about soulcasting air to stone, it was difficult because of convincing the axia to link up. But soulcasting from what we have seen is instantaneous. The matter changes from one form to another. She is not compressing the air. She is taking air, and turning it into a completely different matter. Density matters because it does take more air to make the same volume of stone per density, but that is why there is a sensation of air rushing in. Other air is rushing in to fill the vacuum of the air that was instantly changed into a solid. 

That sounds right, yes.

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