TousenShadowForged Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 So pretty much if this whole Trell is really happening its only happening because Sazed put the planet back in its original spot where trell started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 I think general consensus is that Trell is another Shard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 Yup, it's a Shard, or at least it has a Godmetal associated with it. It's also Shard we know about, and at the time the list was Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and Autonomy. We know specifically that it isnt Preservation or Ruin (Or Harmony), that it isnt Endowment, and that Odium is too Imprisoned during Era 2 to be doing things on Scadrial, and Cultivation is also rather occupied with the same conflict. Honor, Devotion, and Dominion are all shattered, so they are unlikely. So that leaves Autonomy or one of His/Her/Their Avatars as the most likely suspect. Unless a big enough piece of Devotion and/or Dominion's Investiture has gained sentience enough to start meddling with things away from Sel, which is unlikely but technically possible. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Is the metal that Bleeder was associated with and had, is the Shard associated with that metal the same entity that's calling itself Trell? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes. Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017) Quote Chaos I'm sorry Brandon, you might RAFO me. *written* For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know? Brandon Sanderson Oh no… You drove all this way, that's what makes me. Eric comes and he's like-- Chaos You RAFO'd me at Words of Radiance-- Brandon Sanderson I know. Chaos --I asked you a question that was too much. Brandon Sanderson …you push, yeah… There you are you got your answer. You got me. *writes* Yes. Footnote: at that time we knew 9 Shards: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Endowment and AutonomyShadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015) Quote Questioner The spike at the end of Shadows of Self, does that have anything to do with Endowment. Brandon Sanderson That is not from Endowment, I can go ahead and let you know that. Shadows of Self Portland signing (Oct. 10, 2015) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteEmporer Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 When I first read Bands of Mourning, I thought it was Odium. I had this whole elaborate theory where that series was after the end of Stormlight and Odium was going to get freed at the end of Stormlight and come to Scadrial...but I'm pretty sure now that they're happening around the same time, so it doesn't work. It's sad to lose a pet theory. Anywho, I think Autonomy is the most likely candidate at this point. Here's a question, though: whichever Shard it is, did it simply coopt the name Trell when it arrived, or has it been around since pre-final empire, when the originall religion of Trell first existed? It seems unlikely, but... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, WhiteEmporer said: Here's a question, though: whichever Shard it is, did it simply coopt the name Trell when it arrived, or has it been around since pre-final empire, when the originall religion of Trell first existed? It seems unlikely, but... The religion that Sazed describes in TFE, and the hints we get in Era 2 imply that the religion has been changed. I believe that Trell co-opted an existing religion, but... White sand spoilers. Spoiler Seeing as there's a full page picture of a man on Taldains saying his name is Trell long before Era 1 takes place, it's very possible Trell is responsible for the original religion as well and changed it 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 As an addendum to what I said earlier: I still think that Autonomy (or an avatar of Autonomy) is by a wide margin the most likely suspect, but it turns out there is a WOB that Alloy of Law takes place after Book 5 of Stormlight. So if things go really (REALLY) wrong for our Radiant friends, Book Five could see Odium released to go cause trouble elsewhere. But were that to happen I can't see what story would be left to tell in Books 6-10. Also, I kinda like the possibility that Sazed has gone entirely bonkers and "Trell" is a splinter personality representing a Discord persona; not sure how plausible that is, but a Jekyll & Hyde deity would be one hell of a narrative premise. Quote Questioner Does Alloy of Law take place after the whole Stormlight sequence? Brandon Sanderson I have not nailed down the exact timing, but it’s at least after book 5 of Stormlight. Because I haven’t nailed down exactly how long Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 26 minutes ago, Quantus said: Also, I kinda like the possibility that Sazed has gone entirely bonkers and "Trell" is a splinter personality representing a Discord persona; not sure how plausible that is, but a Jekyll & Hyde deity would be one hell of a narrative premise. That's part of what I was thinking, since by all rights, the Ruin half of Harmony should be more powerful than the Preservation half for the same reason Preservation was weaker even before trapping Ruin. Part of that is encased in Nightblood, but I think the rest is either splintered off and forming its own thing (any maybe there's some atium being produced as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 19 minutes ago, Invocation said: That's part of what I was thinking, since by all rights, the Ruin half of Harmony should be more powerful than the Preservation half for the same reason Preservation was weaker even before trapping Ruin. Really? I was under the impression that Ruin and Preservation were equally powered before trapping Ruin. Unless you're referring to Preservation giving up some of its power to give Scadrians their humanity/ability to choose? 20 minutes ago, Invocation said: Part of that is encased in Nightblood, but I think the rest is either splintered off and forming its own thing (any maybe there's some atium being produced as well). Do you have the WoB for this? I vaguely recall seeing something like this, but I'm not sure if Brandon's WoB was explicitly stating that Nightblood was made out or encased in Atium. Or am I misunderstanding this statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted February 19, 2019 Report Share Posted February 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, Todesengel said: Do you have the WoB for this? I vaguely recall seeing something like this, but I'm not sure if Brandon's WoB was explicitly stating that Nightblood was made out or encased in Atium. Or am I misunderstanding this statement? It doesnt say it's made of Atium specifically (sort of the the opposite actually), but it does say that Ruin's Investiture is in the mix, and more directly that we often get: Quote Walin [PENDING REVIEW] Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but... Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Todesengel said: Really? I was under the impression that Ruin and Preservation were equally powered before trapping Ruin. Unless you're referring to Preservation giving up some of its power to give Scadrians their humanity/ability to choose? Yeah, I'm talking about Preservation giving a little bit too much of himself to make the Scadrians more likely to sway to his side. 2 hours ago, Todesengel said: Do you have the WoB for this? I vaguely recall seeing something like this, but I'm not sure if Brandon's WoB was explicitly stating that Nightblood was made out or encased in Atium. Or am I misunderstanding this statement? Quantus took care of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Thanks @Quantus for the WoB! Yeah, I’m not exactly sure how to take that quote. There is obviously Ruin’s influence involved, in more than just a “Ruin’s influence is in everything” sort of way. 27 minutes ago, Invocation said: Yeah, I'm talking about Preservation giving a little bit too much of himself to make the Scadrians more likely to sway to his side. Got it. I agree that it would seem that Preservation’s influence should be slightly weaker than Ruin’s influence. Perhaps the bit of Atium that Marsh has is enough to counteract that difference? (Going out on a limb...) I think a Jekyll & Hyde deity would be a really cool idea, or even Harmony tending toward Discord, but I’m not getting that vibe from Harmony right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, Invocation said: Yeah, I'm talking about Preservation giving a little bit too much of himself to make the Scadrians more likely to sway to his side. Brandon hints that Sazed is doing something with the excess Ruin, but not what. Quote rags How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with? Brandon Sanderson Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power... 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Nice WoB, @RShara! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 11 minutes ago, Todesengel said: I’m not getting that vibe from Harmony right now. You're not? I'm getting a pretty solid discordant leaning to him right now. He literally restored someone to life after having been distracted the whole time prior. He's breaking his own silence on tech development because he's so distracted. That seems pretty Discord-ish to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 @Invocation, I’m certainly not against the idea that he is having discordant tendencies. My mind might be changed, especially after finishing my reread of Era 2 (currently in Alloy of Law). From what I remember, however, I got the impression that his distractions aren’t from being discordant, but from external pressures. Not sure what those external pressures might be, but they are causing him a lot of undue stress. Once I get through my reread, perhaps I’ll have a better idea what those pressures might be. Or perhaps my mind will change, and I’ll agree that he is going more discordant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 Just now, Todesengel said: From what I remember, however, I got the impression that his distractions aren’t from being discordant, but from external pressures. Not sure what those external pressures might be, but they are causing him a lot of undue stress. Once I get through my reread, perhaps I’ll have a better idea what those pressures might be. Or perhaps my mind will change, and I’ll agree that he is going more discordant. External pressure could be the catalyst that makes his Intent change. You are correct that there is pressure from outside, but if anything, that would make it more realistic that his Intent would change, since Sazed himself is balanced when left to his own devices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Invocation said: External pressure could be the catalyst that makes his Intent change. You are correct that there is pressure from outside, but if anything, that would make it more realistic that his Intent would change, since Sazed himself is balanced when left to his own devices. I guess I’m not quite convinced that external pressure can change the Intent of a shard. But I suppose I could see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted February 20, 2019 Report Share Posted February 20, 2019 12 hours ago, Todesengel said: I guess I’m not quite convinced that external pressure can change the Intent of a shard. But I suppose I could see that happening. I'd agree on the basis of normal external pressure. Pressure from a Shard is a whole other story in my mind, though. I guess we'll find out what it is eventually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) Well, someone on the Shard (forgot whom) recently noticed that the Terris prophecies say his name shall be Discord... I doubt it will happen in the quartet though - maybe in Era 3? Edited February 21, 2019 by Kingsdaughter613 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Well, someone on the Shard (forgot whom) recently noticed that the Terris prophecies say his name shall be Discord... Just looked at the Terris prophecies, and indeed it does! Quote “He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it.” Does this refer to before Sazed ascended, or after? I don’t remember anytime he was literally called Discord before his ascension, so perhaps after? Very interesting... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 OK, so, bunch of opinion incoming. Concerning the Ruin in Nightblood effecting the balance in Harmony... We don't know the precise timing of Warbreaker, just that it's between Era 1 and stormlight... But the Manywar happened 300 years before it, and that is when Nightblood was created. So if you take into account the time frame it takes for certain characters who span multiple books to make it to Roshar... The chances of Nightblood being created after Harmony's ascension are low. Add in what we know about a Shards sphere of influence, seen most notably in the Greater Rosharan System, and I don't think that 1) Nightblood would be something Harmony is aware of even if the tinelines work out and 2) would require Harmony to have done something akin to what Autonomy does with her Avatars, which shouldn't effect the local power balance anyway. I'm also unsure if a possessed Scadrians eyes would glow red if the being that were taking control of them (or their corpse, as I believe is the case) was sourced from Ruin or Preservation. Red in these situations is supposed to be one Shards power co-opting anothers. Perhaps any possession will result in this effect and we've read to much into it though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TousenShadowForged Posted March 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2019 oh wow I was never notified people responded thanks and im sorry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ILuvHats Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 (edited) On 2/21/2019 at 9:06 AM, Calderis said: I'm also unsure if a possessed Scadrians eyes would glow red if the being that were taking control of them (or their corpse, as I believe is the case) was sourced from Ruin or Preservation. Why do you think this, out of curiosity? If you mentioned it in a theory I must have missed it. The only reason I can think of is that a person's inherent investiture would interfere with a being of investiture attempting to control them. But I think this interference could be side stepped, or forced through. And if the person's soul/spirit web has already gone to the Beyond, what investiture is the being co-opting causing the red eyes to manifest? Another point that is more my head canon than anything else. I imagine Autonomy would generally prefer servants who can function independently, though maybe not all of her avatars would necessarily. If a corpse is being animated, I assume the body has stopped physically functioning and consuming food would no longer provide energy, so investiture would need to be used in order to provide locomotion and prevent decay. And I'm guessing the beings would need to get their investiture directly from Autonomy. It makes more sense that me that these beings could actively feed off of people's spirit webs in order to function. It's just my head canon though... Edit: Wait a minute, the Fused are a thing. And I suppose they are a case of cognitive shadows who co-opt a body and can still eat like normal Singers. I’m still curious what you think though. Edited March 21, 2019 by ILuvHats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyndlerunner Posted March 21, 2019 Report Share Posted March 21, 2019 On 2/21/2019 at 7:52 AM, Todesengel said: Just looked at the Terris prophecies, and indeed it does! Does this refer to before Sazed ascended, or after? I don’t remember anytime he was literally called Discord before his ascension, so perhaps after? Very interesting... Well, Sazed did speak openly against the actions of the Synod, which makes him pretty discordant Pre-Ascension. (I also couldn't bear it if Sazed were to become a villainous force. Not the bean!) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted March 25, 2019 Report Share Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/21/2019 at 6:12 PM, ILuvHats said: On 2/21/2019 at 10:06 AM, Calderis said: I'm also unsure if a possessed Scadrians eyes would glow red if the being that were taking control of them (or their corpse, as I believe is the case) was sourced from Ruin or Preservation. Why do you think this, out of curiosity? If you mentioned it in a theory I must have missed it. Presumably this is referring to the Svrakiss theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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