What was your disappointment in this series?

[LerasiumMistborn]

22 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I'll preface this comment by saying Dalinar is my favorite SA character and probably top 3 Cosmere-wide.

I'm not sure what are you trying to say here. I assume this is a message for me as I'm supposed to be this "irrationally in love with Dalinar" person. Sorry for misunderstanding you, if I did, but it reads like another "only action oriented are allowed to have a narrative" post. Yes. I'm perfectly aware of it. I know, only characters like Kaladin can be main characters, that's why I can't find any appropriate book for myself for years. Dalinar...he's not allowed to have any screen time. He's a waste. Side-kick. If Dalinar were a main character of his own story, I would be extremely happy. But, as all other authors, Sanderson has no interest in writing Dalinar. 

I however strongly disagree with you that action sequences is what make a good character. I don't read books for lifeless superhero action. I read them for characters, for their thought and emotions. Like Dalinar, he's probably the most thoughtful character within the cast. Rare actions sequences with Kaladin and Szeth didn't make their characters more interesting for me. One plastic action figure fights another plastic action figure. That's not what I'm looking for in the stories. 

Agree that too many focus and screen time can harm characters and their stories. I disliked Kaladin in Words and Shallan in Oathbringer for this very reason. However, in SA this is true only for those two, because no one else, who isn't Kaladin and Shallan, has no focus at all. Those too, Sanderson wrote so many their chapters, in which they think the same thoughts over and over again, that it became repetitive. They got too much. Everyone else (see Dalinar) doesn't get anything. Dalinar in Words...Sanderson just threw him away like a piece of trash for more than 900 pages. The large chunk his narrative was just missed. I can assume the later books will be the same for Dalinar, as Oathbringer is the only book where he was allowed to have a narrative. That's the (my) problem with SA. There's no balance. Two characters get too much focus that harm their stories, and other characters doesn't get any focus to have any story. If Sanderson, for example in WoR, wrote a little, just a little less of Kaladin and Shallan and write a bit more of Dalinar, the story would, imho, win.

But no. There's a story of Kaladin and Shallan only. All other characters are their side-kicks. 

On 21/02/2019 at 2:19 AM, Vissy said:

who is ultimately always correct and whose methods always work. In WoK and WoR his methods and morals sometimes caused him to fail, but in OB he doesn't.

He failed his main task. Unification of Roshar against Odium and creation of strong Coalition. He failed it. In comparison with Odium's forces, Dalinar's little coalition is nothing (any one "member" is Taravangian).

 

17 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

Dalinar should live through book 5 as well. He's not really set up as the type to sacrifice himself, either as a surprise to readers or not. I'm not saying Dalinar wouldn't sacrifice himself if necessary, but he does a lot more alive, leading the war effort and UNITING than he does dead. Plus, IMO he's been set up to be heading towards greater things. His weird visions of light, the Nohadon vision, they are all indicating that he's headed to become something greater than a man. Him dying before that happens would be a huge writing no no, since none of our expectations as readers would be met, and Brandon's a better writer than that. And him dying in a sacrificial way after Ascending or something would be really similar to 

  Reveal hidden contents

Vin's arc at the end of HoA,

making me think that it needs to be something different from that. So, I'd again bet that Dalinar will likely survive arc 1.

I absolutely 100% agree with you that, according to the narrative Sanderson wrote, Dalinar's been set up to be heading towards greater things. This just makes so much sense. I agree, not giving natural development/conclusion of Dalinar's narrative (and natural development of Dalinar's character would be him becoming cosmere-related character), and wasting him instead, would be a bad writing. Why even write Dalinar this way, make readers think he's important, if there won't be any continuation? For me personally, it is a broken promise to the readers.

Unfortunately, I think this is exactly what Sanderson will write. All set up and foreshadowing of Dalinar's future is just a mere trolling to fool readers expectations, then ruin it all for "cheap" shock value. Well, I think so. If I'm right, Dalinar deserves much better than this...

[Winds Alight]

46 minutes ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

Unfortunately, I think this is exactly what Sanderson will write. All set up and foreshadowing of Dalinar's future is just a mere trolling to fool readers expectations, then ruin it all for "cheap" shock value. Well, I think so. If I'm right, Dalinar deserves much better than this...

I never had the feeling of Brandon just doing things for shock value.

[CrazyRioter]

5 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

I never had the feeling of Brandon just doing things for shock value.

He's written about resisting the temptation to do things that hurt the story purely for shock value, so I think he's well aware that doing things just for shock value is often a bad idea and annoys a lot of people.

[Winds Alight]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

He's written about resisting the temptation to do things that hurt the story purely for shock value, so I think he's well aware that doing things just for shock value is often a bad idea and annoys a lot of people.

I'm a poor example of a writer, but I do write and I strongly believe that there is no writer in the world who never feels that kind of temptation.

[CrazyRioter]

1 minute ago, Winds Alight said:

I'm a poor example of a writer, but I do write and I strongly believe that there is no writer in the world who never feels that kind of temptation.

Well, I like what I've seen of your writing :)...but we digress.

Edited February 22, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[+ILuvHats]

2 hours ago, LerasiumMistborn said:

I absolutely 100% agree with you that, according to the narrative Sanderson wrote, Dalinar's been set up to be heading towards greater things. This just makes so much sense. I agree, not giving natural development/conclusion of Dalinar's narrative (and natural development of Dalinar's character would be him becoming cosmere-related character), and wasting him instead, would be a bad writing. Why even write Dalinar this way, make readers think he's important, if there won't be any continuation? For me personally, it is a broken promise to the readers.

Unfortunately, I think this is exactly what Sanderson will write. All set up and foreshadowing of Dalinar's future is just a mere trolling to fool readers expectations, then ruin it all for "cheap" shock value. Well, I think so. If I'm right, Dalinar deserves much better than this...

All I can say is have faith in Brandon. We just came to 2 opposite conclusions when considering the facts about Dalinar, and it really comes down to I think he’s a good enough writer to avoid this pitfall, and you don’t think he is. So... uh...

See, now I’m curious why you think Brandon is a poor writer in this respect. Did you see other people with this opinion on the shard or Reddit? Did you just come to your opinion by reading his books? Was there a book in particular that solidified your opinion of him as a writer? As a person who thinks Brandon is probably in the top 5 fantasy authors out there, I’m just trying to understand your perspective. 

[insert_anagram_here]

I think that Amaram's demise was a little anti-climatic for me, I felt that he would have a more gray role to play in the plot and his involvement in Sons of Honor. I harboured such hate for him since WoK as well and that might've played a role into an assumption that there was something more there. And I'm stating this here because I think this is a done deal otherwise I'd still expect it to be resolved in later books. We just got through the midpoint of the first 5 books after all.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 2/19/2019 at 3:31 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

The three biggest flaws with SA are (in my opinion):

-The handling of Amaram in OB. I have talked about this before, but he had potential to be great, and was thrown to side, had all his development off-screen, and was then killed off in a boss battle. The arc itself isn’t that bad, but the execution is.

-The fake-deaths. Although he is fixing that one. But the effect of those are showing. It took like three WoBs to convince people about that Eshonais death was for real.

-Kaladin saves the day. This bugged me in WoR, where Kaladin was constantly saving everyone. Brandon fixed that in OB though, by having him be saved. 

Pretty much this. Amaram and fake deaths and then tweaking a fake death post-publication, but tweaking it so slightly that it’s still a fake death so what was the point. 

Its good that Kaladin didn’t save the day in OB, couldn’t save the king or himself.  But I I didn’t like Syl lampshading it “maybe it’s time for someone to save you!”

[LerasiumMistborn]

4 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

See, now I’m curious why you think Brandon is a poor writer in this respect. Did you see other people with this opinion on the shard or Reddit? Did you just come to your opinion by reading his books? Was there a book in particular that solidified your opinion of him as a writer? 

I don't think he's a poor writer. Well, I think "good writer" and "not good writer" is pretty...subjective. All authors have their strengths and weaknesses. No, I don't think Brandon Sanderson is a poor writer, but I indeed have many problems with this series. I also need to admit, it's a matter of perspective. For example, from perspective of Kaladin fan, I'm sure, SA is a masterpiece. However, from my perspective of person who love Dalinar, not everything is so perfect. I'm not pleased with Dalinar's lack of page time, but I already wrote about it, so I won't repeat myself. I will just said that I strongly disapprove Sanderson's decision to throw Dalinar away from books 2 and 4. For me, just for me, (mis)treating one of the "main" characters like this is a bad narrative decision.

As Sanderson considers Dalinar to be a character for the first half of SA only, I think he's going to die. Well, maybe Brandon just doesn't want to give spoilers and Dalinar has a super-important role in the whole SA series and cosmere. Maybe. But honestly I have more pessimistic opinion: Dalinar is the character for the first half of SA only. If this is the case...well, this is another bad narrative decision (for me). Dalinar's death, no matter how it's written, is a bad narrative choice, because there are a waaaay more variants of how his story can develop. Dalinar has tons of potential and, if it were wasted for another cliched "heroic sacrifice" (or so) moment, it would be considered as broken promise for readers. Because you don't introduce something like this (Dalinar in Oathbringer's ending), if you aren't willing to continue writing it. You don't write Dalinar as a cosmere-relevant character, if you plan to waste him instead. But I feel that an actual book narrative clashes with Sanderson's plans. He never said Dalinar will have a role in the second half of SA. But books strongly imply on Dalinar's importance. That's why I'm disappointed.

[equinox]

I absolutely trust Brandon Sanderson to write a satisfying story. And I trust him to write Dalinar's story in the best way there is. I am sure Brandon Sanderson will not just kill of a character without telling his whole story - at least not one of the POV characters. 

I didn't like Eshonai's death and I disliked Venli taking over Timbre. But they grew on me during Oathbringer. I disliked other deaths in other Cosmere stories. But there is no character that was - imo - wasted by Brandon. Yes, I wish Amaram's story had a bit more depth. Yes, I so much wish Tien would still be alive. And I mourned Elhokar's death. But all those characters had reasons to die.

We do not know where Dalinar's story is heading. And I think it's not a good idea to be disappointed by what we think Brandon will write without actual knowledge about characters' future. Even if those (corrupted?) Truthwatchers among you dare to foretell the future, be aware, you might err...

[Messydesk]

At first I thought I didn't have any disappointments worth mentioning, but then I remembered that I actually started a thread about the lack of screentime on Adolin and Shallan's wedding soooo I guess that counts:'D

[Vissy]

Also y u no show wedding ;_; i wanted to see that, when the book cut off just before the big moment I was very disappoint

[Sedside]

I think there is a good reason for not showing this wedding. Well, I hope so.

[Winds Alight]

I'm glad they didn't show the wedding. We already had one in OB and frankly I don't see the need.

[UnMate]

8 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I think there is a good reason for not showing this wedding.

Some specific reason or just a hunch?

[Sedside]

9 minutes ago, UnMate said:

Some specific reason or just a hunch?

The latter. I just don't think that such a major event could be omitted without a reason. Maybe we will see something in flashbacks, some openings for new plotlines, or it could just be another big hint that this marriage is doomed.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Sedside

[Winds Alight]

6 minutes ago, Sedside said:

such a major event could be omitted without a reason.

The reason could simply be that the actual ceremony wasn't important to the story? We saw the preparation, we know it happened, why spend 20 more pages on "and then they stepped up to each other"?

Wedding ceremonies are boring. (Except Klingon wedding. They're awesome.)

[Sedside]

1 minute ago, Winds Alight said:

The reason could simply be that the actual ceremony wasn't important to the story?

Could be as well.

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah I think it just got cut for lack of space. It's unfortunate, but the book was already ridiculously long so stuff had to be cut.

[UnMate]

8 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I just don't think that such a major event could be omitted without a reason.

I don't think that their wedding was really important especially at the end of the book, not like Dalinar and Navani. I think it was just normal ceremony without any special meaning and events.

[LerasiumMistborn]

1 minute ago, Winds Alight said:

The reason could simply be that the actual ceremony wasn't important to the story? 

Yes, I think this is the case. And more...simple reason: the book were already too long, so Brandon should "sacrificed" some scenes. Wedding is a safe choice.  It's not that important to the story (unlike Dalinar's wedding that was one of the reasons of why he's in conflict with Vorin church).

[+Child of Hodor]

Just now, Winds Alight said:

The reason could simply be that the actual ceremony wasn't important to the story? We saw the preparation, we know it happened, why spend 20 more pages on "and then they stepped up to each other"?

Wedding ceremonies are boring. (Except Klingon wedding. They're awesome.)

Yeah, there was a lot of falling action and setup for the next book that needed to happen at the end of Oathbringer. Things had to be omitted or the book would approach exceeding bindable length, they had to switch to thinner paper as it was. Oathbringer is longer than Words of Radiance, but look at the size of the hardcovers.

Another omission is Szeth giving a more thorough explanation to Dalinar and the other Radiants before being accepted. The next we see of him he's just tagging along at strategy meetings and no one says anything. 

[Sedside]

Well, I myself don't think it's unimportant. The event itself is important, and showing at least the oaths or something like that would be, I don't know, somewhat like a symbol. So many people don't like the fact it wasn't shown, I would have expected it to be at least a bit highlighted too. But it wasn't. That's my opinion.

Oathbringer's length don't prevent moving some events to the next book for flashbacks.

[Winds Alight]

5 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Another omission is Szeth giving a more thorough explanation to Dalinar and the other Radiants before being accepted. The next we see of him he's just tagging along at strategy meetings and no one says anything. 

That's something I'd consider more important than the wedding.
I actually was a bit confused about him just ... being there. I really hope we get to see some conflict later on.

[Sedside]

Well, Szeth had joined the TC battle on a totally outnumbered side and invested a lot into its result. I understand, if people wouldn't go asking him to explain himself later on. They all know he was a hired assassin and had "nothing personal" with his victims.