Why I think Sadeas death was right.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Who cares who has the "right"? It's an arbitrary concept that can be given to you after the fact, or not. Adolin did the only right thing at the time. It's an apocalypse, and there's a guy who doesn't care about it because they're too salty and bitter about losing a personal power struggle that has already become meaningless.

Adolin did what was convenient at the time and what he felt emotionally obligated to do.  His actions may or may not have been legal (I do agree that the Alethi legal code needs to be updated because it does not currently work for people at their level) but it takes Adolin a great deal of soul searching to come to terms with what he did and this decreases his effectiveness throughout Oathbringer.  Additionally I am compelled to say (very reluctantly) that despite his many many many flaws Sadeas could have been useful.  He was a skilled general and politician and he was an able administrator.  These are qualities that it takes years to cultivate and cannot be easily replaced if Sadeas could have understand the gravity of the situation he might have helped save the world.  Dalinar didn't exactly start as a great person (and yes I do recognise the differences between the two of them).   What worries me most is that Adolin killed Sadeas out of anger as apposed to because he thought that it would help protect people.  I do not think that killing someone because your blood is up can be justified to any reasonable person.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I sympathize but do not think I agree.  Emotions may not be rational as has been noted many times above however that does not make the honorable or right.  Yes what Sadeas did was terrible and yes many people would agree that you have the right to exact retribution.  I must still say "Journey before destination" you can't do something wrong just to get something right.  Yes Sadeas should be punished for his actions but the purpose of a punishment is so that others know the consequences of similar behavior it is not so that you can feel better because the person that angered you is now dead.  Just because he should be punished does not give you the right to punish him.

For me its not even about right and wrong. Murder is objectively wrong. Sadeas however, poses a clear threat to Adolin's life and the lives of those he cares about. I wouldn't even need to be angry, I'd murder him in cold blood. I might have even waited until he turned away and knifed him in the back, just to be sure of the outcome. I certainly would not be eligible to become a Radiant if I were in the Cosmere.

 

Edit: Now that I think about it, this is probably exactly how Jasnah would deal with it, except she would have burned out his eyes/turned him into smoke. I guess I could be a Radiant.

Edited February 19, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Jace21]

52 minutes ago, Karger said:

 I must still say "Journey before destination" you can't do something wrong just to get something right.

Sure you can. The first Oath doesnt always mean what you think it does. Teft provides an explanation, not the explanation.

There were multiple orders that would be ok with Adolin killing Sadeas, and given the lack of other option I think it was fine.

Was it right (as in moral)? No.

Was it right (as in the correct course of action)? For me, yes.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

Was it right (as in moral)? No.

Was it right (as in the correct course of action)? For me, yes.

Morality is subjective. Right and wrong vary by culture, religion, era, etc. 

Which is why I've said that if this were our society I wouldn't support Adolin's actions. 

I am not attempting to single out Christianity here, this is just an example because it's the way I was raised and the religion I know best, but the Bible has a passage that describes the proper treatment and procedures of owning a slave. It describes times at which you should put your children to death. These things are no longer acceptable within that religion or society. 

Right and wrong change. If there is a objective morality defined by something greater than ourselves, it has been completely uncommunicated. Which is why we rely on the things that are instilled in us as we grow. Family and society ingrain these things, and as time passes and society changes we become better for it (usually). 

Alethkar is not where we are yet, and so I do not hold Adolin to our standards. 

[Jace21]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Morality is subjective. Right and wrong vary by culture, religion, era, etc. 

Which is why I've said that if this were our society I wouldn't support Adolin's actions. 

I am not attempting to single out Christianity here, this is just an example because it's the way I was raised and the religion I know best, but the Bible has a passage that describes the proper treatment and procedures of owning a slave. It describes times at which you should put your children to death. These things are no longer acceptable within that religion or society. 

Right and wrong change. If there is a objective morality defined by something greater than ourselves, it has been completely uncommunicated. Which is why we rely on the things that are instilled in us as we grow. Family and society ingrain these things, and as time passes and society changes we become better for it (usually). 

Alethkar is not where we are yet, and so I do not hold Adolin to our standards. 

I absolutely agree, I should have specified that the "no it wasn't moral" was also just from my persepctive. But in-world I have zero issues with Adolins actions and think it was the best course of action available.

All alternatives I have seen listed would have had disastrous consequences.

[TousenShadowForged]

a man who already betrayed you got thousands of your men killed and tried to have you killed  bluntly mockingly tells you to your face he will do everything to destroy you your family and refuses to never cooperate.

 

that's why adolin lost it sadeas refusal  tolerating something like that has its limits 

 

and adolin has shown sadeas a few times he would  outright kill him amaram intervened directly when adolin decided to assault the guy.

 

sadeas death is his own fault

[Diomedes]

On 16.2.2019 at 7:25 AM, Calderis said:

No questions.

Eh. 

There are two ways you could justify murdering Sadeas the way Adolin did.

a) He`s motivated by saving his family and Alethkar. 

b ) What he did actually served the greater good.

Both are not true. 

a) Adolin is motivated by rage.

Quote

Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eye, and then something finally snapped. WOR ch. 87 p.1067.

 

Quote

The look of utter shock on Sadeas face amused a part of Adolin, the very small part that wasn`t completly, totally and irrevocably enraged. p. 1068.  

Adolin later rationalizes his actions as serving the greater good and Shallan supports him in that view. However, it could not be clearer from the way the scene is written that he is motivated by base impulses. That is pretty Odium-esque. 

b ) He may have killed the Highlord, but House Sadeas is still around. Amaram and Ialai Sadeas are both capable leaders experienced in politics and the military. Maybe they are an even better team than Sadeas and Ialai ever were. Adolin comments on this while being once again enraged. 

Quote

"I`am just annoyed. We`re finally rid of Sadeas and now that (Amaram) takes his place?" OB ch. 27 p.279

Adolin made House Sadeas angry without seriously inhibiting their potential to do harm. That made the situation hardly any better. As you said this caused House Sadeas to go over to Odium. Adolin imperiled the fate of Roshar, luckily it did not play out that way in Thaylen.  

Anyways, these kinds of considerations were not in Adolin`s mind when he murdered Sadeas. How could they? He did not have time to seriously think  about the consequences of his actions. He just wanted to satisfy his anger.

There are lots of questions.  If you ask me, Adolin is in a prime position to go over to Odium.    

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Diomedes said:

There are lots of questions.  If you ask me, Adolin is in a prime position to go over to Odium.    

I personally doubt that.  He is too empathic in general.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Eh. 

There are two ways you could justify murdering Sadeas the way Adolin did.

a) He`s motivated by saving his family and Alethkar. 

b ) What he did actually served the greater good.

Both are not true. 

a) Adolin is motivated by rage.

Adolin later rationalizes his actions as serving the greater good and Shallan supports him in that view. However, it could not be clearer from the way the scene is written that he is motivated by base impulses. That is pretty Odium-esque. 

Yes and no. Rage is the tipping factor that makes adolin lose control, but adolin has been wanting to kill sadeas for a long time. "adolin is motivated by rage" make it look like adolin got into an argument with sadeas over who last used the kitchen without cleaning up and stabbed him for it. rage has nothing to do with the motivation for adolin to kill sadeas. adolin did not decide months earlier that he wanted sadeas dead because sadeas insulted him, or forbid him from dating his daughter, or took credit for something adolin did.

no, adolin has been wanting to kill sadeas for months because sadeas has been systematically trying to destroy his family and had almost killed his entire army. and he hasn't done so earlier only because there would be consequences. rage is merely the tipping factor that makes him do it, consequences be damned.

Quote

b ) He may have killed the Highlord, but House Sadeas is still around. Amaram and Ialai Sadeas are both capable leaders experienced in politics and the military. Maybe they are an even better team than Sadeas and Ialai ever were. Adolin comments on this while being once again enraged. 

Adolin made House Sadeas angry without seriously inhibiting their potential to do harm. That made the situation hardly any better. As you said this caused House Sadeas to go over to Odium. Adolin imperiled the fate of Roshar, luckily it did not play out that way in Thaylen.  

Anyways, these kinds of considerations were not in Adolin`s mind when he murdered Sadeas. How could they? He did not have time to seriously think  about the consequences of his actions. He just wanted to satisfy his anger.

 

ok, it didn't work as advertised, but let's face it: killing sadeas has been a primary objective for the kholins for most of the second book. the main point of the whole "adolin duels everyone" subplot was to manuever sadeas into having to duel adolin, so sadeas would be killed. adolin wanted to kill sadeas. elokhar wanted to kill sadeas. dalinar, for all his denial, wanted sadeas dead too, else he would not have approved the plan for the dueling.

and sure, killing sadeas in a duel would have been better, as it wouldn't have given political leverage to ialai.

and ok, someone else took sadeas' place and nothing really changed. that's often the case when you remove a tyrant, as tyrants are born out of a power vacuum, and the power vacuum will continue to generate new tyrants until you resolve its root causes.

but that doesn't mean that "kill sadeas" hadn't been a plan for the good guys for a while. also, sadeas' continued attempts to undermine dalinar were serving odium just as well.

Quote

There are lots of questions.  If you ask me, Adolin is in a prime position to go over to Odium.    

nah. we've never seen anyone selfless go to odium.

you may make an exception for taravangian, but T isn't being touched by odium, he merely decided that complying is the best chance to save someone. the people we've seen go over to odium - amaram, venli, moash, aesudan - were all power-hungry jerks from the beginning. with the sole exception of moash, who was a revenge-hungry jerk instead. none of them had any real selflessness. they were all self-centered. adolin is nothing like them.

[18th Shard]

Just thought I would throw my 2 cents in here - Sadeas was not unarmed. Both men had Shardblades, which due to the circumstances of the fight were not summoned. But arguing that Sadeas deserved a chance with a weapon - he had one, and probably the best one he could have had, but regardless, Adolin would have killed him. Adolin is probably hands down the best dueler in Alethkar - there is no evening the odds with the weapons with him involved.

Was killing Sadeas smart? No. Is Adolin innocent of wrong in the situation? No. But is it perhaps justified? I think so.

Why did Sadeas come down without guards? That is, frankly, stupid. Nevermind the hotheaded son of the Blackthorn here, what happens if a Moash or a bridgeman saw him? I could see plenty of them stabbing him in the chest and then facing whatever backlash comes. Sadeas knows that. He's not exactly shy about saying he hates the Kholins, so he can really only have two motives in this meeting with Adolin. Threaten verbally without witnesses and push him into doing something stupid politically (check with an unexpected outcome), or threaten/injure/kill him.

But above that. this isn't some petty man causing Adolin personal anguish. This is arguably the 2nd most powerful man in Alethkar and probably in the top 5 in Roshar, saying he would rather claw his way to the top of humanity and watch it burn. This is a man with incredible wealth and power saying, screw you and your kingdom, and the world with it, I want to be in charge. In spite of the fact he knows the end of the world is coming, in spite of the fact he knows the Kholins are right and are Radiant, he still just wants to ignore it all for his own gain. That, in my book, is treason. The fact it'll require Adolin's family dead makes it personal, but that's only a small part of the bigger issue here.

And for me, that's where Sadeas diverges from Elhokar. Elhokar is a selfish, whiny tyrant, but when the world starts ending, he decides he'll start trying to live up to what he could be. And it doesn't atone for what he has done, but at least he is trying to stop the end of the world.

Perhaps a better comparison than Moash is one with Kelsier. We don't really blame him for the deaths he causes in the same way we do Adolin or Moash, probably because they aren't as big a deal to him. But he is far above either of these two for killing hierarchical nobility to satisfy vengeance.

[Diomedes]

12 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

no, adolin has been wanting to kill sadeas for months because sadeas has been systematically trying to destroy his family and had almost killed his entire army. and he hasn't done so earlier only because there would be consequences. rage is merely the tipping factor that makes him do it, consequences be damned.

Adolin murdering Sadeas is super relatable. We as readers are meant to hate Sadeas. That is how he is portrayed, not having really any kinds of redeeming qualities. Adolin gives into his rage and does something really stupid and risky in the heat of the moment, "consequences be damned". However, anything being relatable does not mean it should be done. Like I said giving into momentary impulses is pretty much the defintion of following the path of Odium.

12 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

but that doesn't mean that "kill sadeas" hadn't been a plan for the good guys for a while. also, sadeas' continued attempts to undermine dalinar were serving odium just as well.

Dalinar`s plan is to build a unified Alethkar. That means persuading  as many Houses as possible to join their side. Gavilar did this somewhat sucessfully showing that it indeed can be done. Challenging Sadeas to a duell serves that purpose, murdering him in rage does not.

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

nah. we've never seen anyone selfless go to odium

Adolin is not exactly selfless. He has major relationship problems. It cannot always have been his girlfriends fault, that so many broke up with him, could it? 

He treats Kaladin with contempt in WoR and has no problem killing swaths of Parshmen, very much unlike Kaladin. 

13 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

he people we've seen go over to odium - amaram, venli, moash, aesudan - were all power-hungry jerks from the beginning. with the sole exception of moash, who was a revenge-hungry jerk instead. none of them had any real selflessness. they were all self-centered. adolin is nothing like them.

Venli received her redemption towards being a Radiant in OB. Moash was one of Kal`s closest friends in WoK. We have not really seen Amaram`s or Aesuadan`s perspective from the beginning, only where they ended up. 

Adolin is portrayed to seem likable, which is not the same as him being selfless. He can be violent, impulsive and self-centered. 

This does not mean he will definitly go over to Odium. It means he has a lot of work to do to become the man he seems to be. 

Or his arc in the next book will show him indulging in his impulsive side and him ending up on Odium`s side. 

[Calderis]

22 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Eh. 

There are two ways you could justify murdering Sadeas the way Adolin did.

a) He`s motivated by saving his family and Alethkar. 

b ) What he did actually served the greater good.

Both are not true. 

a) Adolin is motivated by rage.

This is a false dichotomy. 

Adolin snaps and is motivated by rage because of the things that Sadeas had just said.

Quote

“I will admit,” Sadeas said, “there is more fight left to your father than I’d once feared. A remarkable plan. Contacting the Parshendi, working out this deal with them. They put on quite a show, I hear. It certainly convinced Aladar.”
“You can’t possibly believe it was all a show.”
“Oh please. You deny that he had a Parshendi among his own guard? Isn’t it convenient that these new ‘Radiants’ include the head of Dalinar’s guard and your own betrothed?”
Sadeas smiled, and Adolin saw the truth. No, he didn’t believe this, but it was the lie he would tell. He would start the whisperings again, trying to undermine Dalinar.
“Why?” Adolin asked, stepping up to him. “Why are you like this, Sadeas?”
“Because,” Sadeas said with a sigh, “it has to happen. You can’t have an army with two generals, son. Your father and I, we’re two old whitespines who both want a kingdom. It’s him or me. We’ve been pointed that way since Gavilar died.”
“It doesn’t have to be that way.”
“It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.”
Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped.
That’s it.

The anger is a direct result of Sadeas saying that he's going to continue to threaten the lives of not only Adolin's family, but of the people of Alethkar as a whole, until either Dalinar or himself are eliminated and the other in control. 

His rage is a direct result of what Sadeas says and serves both A and B of your scenarios. 

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Adolin murdering Sadeas is super relatable. We as readers are meant to hate Sadeas. That is how he is portrayed, not having really any kinds of redeeming qualities. Adolin gives into his rage and does something really stupid and risky in the heat of the moment, "consequences be damned". However, anything being relatable does not mean it should be done. Like I said giving into momentary impulses is pretty much the defintion of following the path of Odium.

Not talking about whether it is relatable, or how the act is portrayed. the quote refers merely on whether adolin decided to murder sadeas in rage or not. And the answer is, absolutely not. adolin had wanted sadeas dead for a long time, he had not decided that sadeas should die in a moment of rage.

So, "adolin was motivated by rage" is false. and it doesn't have anything to do with narrative structure or redeeming qualities.

 

Quote

 

Adolin is not exactly selfless. He has major relationship problems. It cannot always have been his girlfriends fault, that so many broke up with him, could it? 

He treats Kaladin with contempt in WoR and has no problem killing swaths of Parshmen, very much unlike Kaladin. 

Adolin is portrayed to seem likable, which is not the same as him being selfless. He can be violent, impulsive and self-centered. 

 

so... adolin has relationship problems (which, considering how he did when he dated shallan, I think stemmed from the fact that adolin wasn't really interested in those relationships in the first place - because noblewomen tried hard to conform to a standard, and adolin didn't like that standard)

and adolin didn't get along with kaladin at first... which applies to a lot of other people, and didn't stop adolin from helping kaladin whenever was right

and adolin had no problems killing enemy soldiers in a war... which applies to pretty much anyone but kaladin (and dalinar in one single scene), and is not at all surprising for one who has been raised as a soldier

if that's your whole case for "adolin is a bad guy", i'm not taking it. again, it has no bearing on whether he is portrayed to be likable.

Quote

 

Venli received her redemption towards being a Radiant in OB. Moash was one of Kal`s closest friends in WoK. We have not really seen Amaram`s or Aesuadan`s perspective from the beginning, only where they ended up.

 

venli is becoming a better person after having lost everything and having realized that her betrayal of her people only brought misery. she was offal before.

moash has always been a mean guy, even when he was kaladin's friend. heck, moash was portrayed as likable, through the eyes of kaladin, but he had always been self-absorbed, only caring for himself and his vengeance. and the rest of the crew, but he was willing to throw them away as soon as he had anything "better". I may add that I never liked him and i always had a low opinion of him; I think i can tell the difference between a character that is portrayed to be likable, and a genuinely good character.

Amaram was there at rathalas and was fine with burning the city; he may have been a better men at some point, but he hasn't been in the last 13 years.

and we know nothing much of aesuadan, but we also have no reason to assume that she was a good person who got slowly corrupted rather than having been trash the whole time.

[+Oltux72]

On 30/11/2019 at 11:33 PM, Ookla the Prolific said:

I personally doubt that.  He is too empathic in general.

Ehm. Odium is about emotion. If you want uncaring  and aloof, go to Honor.  If you want caring but amoral, go to Cultivation. Honor means doing what you hate, because you must keep the oath.

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Ehm. Odium is about emotion. If you want uncaring  and aloof, go to Honor.  If you want caring but amoral, go to Cultivation. Honor means doing what you hate, because you must keep the oath.

Odium denies empathy.  It is a certain kind of hatred.  Adolin is Cultivation aliened he cares about everyone(Sadeas does not count).

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Diomedes]

20 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

So, "adolin was motivated by rage" is false. and it doesn't have anything to do with narrative structure or redeeming qualities

That is what the text says. Adolin literally "snapped". It was not some kind rational decision or anything else. He has major issues containing his anger/ the Thrill. He almost kills Sadeas in a scene in WoR, when he was teasing him. 

Also this scene, where he gets carried away by the Thrill, brutally and recklessly (Adolin`s  assessment not mine) batters down his opponent.  

Quote

He trailed off as Adolin carefully placed a gauntleted hand against his neck. Salinor`s eyes widened. „You wouldn`t."

Fearspren crawled out of the sand around him.

„my prize, Adolin said suddenly feeling drained. The Thrill faded from him, he`d never felt like this in a duel. WOR ch. 14 p. 225. 

 Likewise, he mauls Kaladin wearing plate at the training grounds, which could have killed Kaladin according to Zahel, even  though Kaladin had saved his life at the Tower! Because he is hurt in his pride as a Lighteye: 

Quote

Adolin was all for treating men with respect and honor regardless of eyeshade, but the Almighty had put some men in command and others beneath them. WoR. ch. 35 p.409

This is a fine worldview, if you happen to be the one being put in charge by the Almighty.  

21 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

so... adolin has relationship problems (which, considering how he did when he dated shallan, I think stemmed from the fact that adolin wasn't really interested in those relationships in the first place - because noblewomen tried hard to conform to a standard, and adolin didn't like that standard)

He doesn`t have "relationship problems". He is socially isolated having no friends and wrecking numerous close emotional bondings. There was no noblewoman that wasn`t adhering to that standard until Shallan came around? Among all the young people in the camps there was nobody that deserved to be his friend? I have a hard time believing that. liklier explanation is, that he is unable to form lasting human connection of any kind. That is a major warning sign.  

 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Ehm. Odium is about emotion. If you want uncaring  and aloof, go to Honor.  If you want caring but amoral, go to Cultivation. Honor means doing what you hate, because you must keep the oath.

Pretty much this. Here is the best explanation I found by @bxcnch: 

 

"I always thought of Odium as uncontrolled emotion, not just hatred. A lot of the protagonists hate something, like Kaladin hates opression, Adolin hated Sadeas, Dalinar hates himself, et cetera, and while the character development - and thereby, their "career" as Surgebinders - has so far often involved overcoming this hatred, I don't really feel like that hatred has made them more susceptible to Odium. If Odium really was only divine hatred, then I think the story would play out a lot more like Star Wars, with characters needing to restrain themselves to avoid corruption. I think the overarching (moralic) conflict is less about "hatred vs. love", but more about "ideals vs. irresponsibility".

The "good god" is called Honor, quite possibly the most vague concept of all the shards. What exactly honour means is a highly disputed topic with different answers depending on culture, time period and personal philosophy. In SA, judging from the magic system, honour seems to be defined as "making decisions based on higher values and ideals instead of one's own emotions". That is exactly what seperates the good guys from the bad guys in SA. Kaladin chooses to protect instead of taking revenge, Szeth puts the law over his own sympathy, et cetera. Meanwhile, Amaram warps and re-interpretes his ideals whenever they contradict his pseudo-messianic self-image and Moash just abandons all ideals in favor of "none of this is my fault anyway". The big step that would have made Dalinar a slave of Odium would have been saying "This isn't my fault". The entire war is a conflict between Honor (responsibility, facing the consequences, choosing to serve higher ideals instead of momentary desires - in short: acting like one's ideal self) against Odium (irresponsibility, doing things because you want to, acting out of emotions like greed, revenge, hatred or spite instead of higher values, not accepting that it's your fault etc.). In other words: The "good guys" are following values, the "bad guys" are acting out of emotion." 

[Pathfinder]

So just two things:

 

1. Yes Adolin is a great guy, but theoretically anyone can be corrupted. Theoretically everyone has a breaking point. Theoretically anything could happen to switch anyone. Cultivation said Dalinar could have just as easily sided with Odium. The heralds were supposed to be paragons to fight back the voidbringers, but they too fell. So I think it is reductionist to state there is no way Adolin could ever switch sides to Odium or become Odium's champion. 

2. Adolin has always been enraged by Sadeas. Renarin comments how he does not like how Adolin gets around Sadeas. So just because he got enraged in the past, and was only held back by Renarin and co, does not mean he didn't kill Sadeas in a rage. Just means there is a past pattern. 

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Diomedes said:

He doesn`t have "relationship problems". He is socially isolated having no friends and wrecking numerous close emotional bondings. There was no noblewoman that wasn`t adhering to that standard until Shallan came around? Among all the young people in the camps there was nobody that deserved to be his friend? I have a hard time believing that. liklier explanation is, that he is unable to form lasting human connection of any kind. That is a major warning sign.  

 

he was not socially isolated, nor was he "having no friends". in fact, he was shown to have plenty of friends in the other warcamps... or at least he thought they were his friends, until the point where they sided with sadeas. adolin had a lot of friends, though none very close.

I may also point out that it is especially difficult to make friends when you are the son of a highprince and everything about you is mired in politics. especially when your father is unpopular. everyone in his warcamp is his underling, and everyone in the other warcamps is a rival.

which make me think, dalinar is "socially isolated, having no friends". kaladin, too; he had followers, but no real friends except moash. perhaps they are bad guys too?

I believe you are stretching interpretations to make your point stick.

 

Quote

In other words: The "good guys" are following values, the "bad guys" are acting out of emotion." 

in which case, adolin should be safe, as he has plenty of values. sure, he is often impulsive and emotional about them, about the things he cares for. I can envision his decision to lock himself in prison with kaladin as adolin storming around screaming it's not fair. but if being emotional about your values is enough to go to odium, shallan is much more at risk than adolin.

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

in which case, adolin should be safe, as he has plenty of values. sure, he is often impulsive and emotional about them, about the things he cares for. I can envision his decision to lock himself in prison with kaladin as adolin storming around screaming it's not fair. but if being emotional about your values is enough to go to odium, shallan is much more at risk than adolin.

Ever read the gothic novel The Monk? The people the devil aims for most are the most "good". Personally I do not think of values as a shield that makes you immune to turning bad. Values can be distorted and twisted. Honestly I do not think anyone is safe from Odium's influence. Dalinar included. Its a continuing resistance.

[Diomedes]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

which make me think, dalinar is "socially isolated, having no friends". kaladin, too; he had followers, but no real friends except moash. perhaps they are bad guys too?

Dalinar has been loving Navani for decades, Kadash seemed like a good friend of his. Besides he does almost go over to Odium in Thaylen City. Kaladin has all of Bridge 4 deeply caring about him Teft, Rock, Sigzil, Skar and Lopen especially.  

 

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I believe you are stretching interpretations to make your point stick

And I believe lots of people in this forum are infatuated with Adolin and refuse to see the horrific side of his character. 

 

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

but if being emotional about your values is enough to go to odium, shallan is much more at risk than adolin

Yes, I believe Shallan in her hyperemotional state barely keeping it together and flirting with the Ghostbloods is likewise at risk. Pattern firmly believes she will kill him. But that`s for another topic. 

Edit: Venli will get flashback chapters next book. We will see wether she has always been terrible from the beginning. My guess is her developement will become more relatable. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Diomedes

[+Oltux72]

16 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

in which case, adolin should be safe, as he has plenty of values. sure, he is often impulsive and emotional about them, about the things he cares for. I can envision his decision to lock himself in prison with kaladin as adolin storming around screaming it's not fair. but if being emotional about your values is enough to go to odium, shallan is much more at risk than adolin.

You cannot be passionate unless you have values. They may be less than noble, e.g. yourself and your own welfare and importance, but values none the less. Honor is not about acting according to values as such. In fact, that is extremely close to a tautology. Honor means to value a commitment and duty higher than a current emotion. Empathy is passion and thus a weakness.

11 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Edit: Venli will get flashback chapters next book. We will see wether she has always been terrible from the beginning. My guess is her developement will become more relatable. 

Now for all those who are so critical of Venli, what would you have her do? What was the alternative to introducing a Form of Power? Surrender and hoping for the mildness of a ruler whose father you betrayed and murdered and who is already percieved as weak?

Quote

Personally I do not think of values as a shield that makes you immune to turning bad.

Indeed. There is one central point in which Odium is absolutely right. Our passions make us human. It can be bad to act according to them. But they must exist.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Oltux72
forgot an important point