Why I think Sadeas death was right.

[Calderis]

To avoid arguing in a thread not designed for it, I'll just open this up here. 

Simply put, you cannot expect justice from an unjust system. The death of Sadeas was the only way to remove a man who was ready to throw an entire nation into war for his own greed and lust for power. 

There was no filing a police report. There was no criminal court or charges. The choices were Assassination/murder, or war between Sadeas and it's allies and the rest of the Kingdom.

When a man who is at a level of power that he cannot be tried has committed acts that cause the deaths of thousands states plainly that he will do so again and again in order to get what he wants, and you have the means to remove the man and prevent that... Do it. 

In our society, this will not (or at least should not) occur. No matter the level of wealth or political power someone achieves, they are still supposed to be held accountable to the law. 

This is not the case with a Highprince. If the choice is the death of one man or a war that will needlessly kill thousands, from a man who is stating plainly that those deaths are coming if he lives as well... 

No questions. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Calderis

[CrazyRioter]

I absolutely agree with this.

If there was a way to deal with him within the system of the society that would have been the way to go. But he'd repeatedly dodged responsibility for his actions through abusing his position within the system, and was effectively immune from legal consequences.

Sometimes you just don't have a 'good' option and all you can do is go with the least bad one.

[king of nowhere]

this topic has been debated a long time in the past.

while I agree, i'd rather not take part in more discussions about it

[Sedside]

I agree, that Sadeas should have died one way or another. What I don't like about his death is how it was handled and no consequences for the killer. That's all.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

I agree, that Sadeas should have died one way or another. What I don't like about his death is how it was handled and no consequences for the killer. That's all.

There were consequences for far more than Adolin. Just no legal or political consequences. Which is true of pretty much every other "murder" we know of. 

Szeth has killed a multitude and is now Dalinar's bodyguard. 

Shallan's father. plenty of emotional consequences, and consequences for her family, but legal? Political? That's all washed away with the Veden civil war. 

Which is also why there were no consequences for his relationship. To judge him for it would make her one hell of a hypocrite.She killed her father to protect her brothers. Because she cared. Adolin killed Sadeas because he threatened the people that Adolin cared about and had proven he had the will, means, and lack of remorse to do so again... And Sadeas was nasty on a scale that was both far more reaching, the entirety of Alethkar becomes the analog to Shallan's family, and far more subtle and socially acceptable. Everyone knew what Sadeas was doing, but because he played the political game he was both respected and permitted to continue. 

Even the means by which they killed are comparable, with Shallan's actions arguably worse. He attacked a man with a Dagger in his bad hand because his main hand was injured, which was not hidden and allowed a struggle to ensue, which Sadeas lost. Shallan on the other hand attempted to poison her father, and when that failed strangled him while he was still paralyzed and unable to fight back... How is Shallan's action. Any more defensible than Adolins? 

As to the consequences of Adolins actions there are emotional consequences that he buries himself in work to try and avoid. And there are massive consequences story wise. The way I mentioned above that everyone knew what Sadeas was doing is the very reason that everyone assumed the Kholins were responsible. That assumption, and what was perceived as a lack of action to "find the killer" (work to cover-up is what they more likely thought) on Dalinar's part, created the increasing animosity in Sadeas men that is referenced over the book and ultimately allows their possession by Odium's forces in the end. 

Much of the ending of the book is only possible because of the manner in which Sadeas died, and that that death was glossed over by larger events. The very frustration some seem to feel about the "lack of consequences" is the frustration that drove Sadeas' men to be the thrill driven army at the end. 

There were plenty of consequences for Adolins actions. There just weren't the consequences that people expected, and some think Adolin deserved. Consequences that in my opinion would have been both a distraction from the larger events of the story and ultimately resulted in little actual punishment anyway. We've seen everyone save Dalinar's reaction to Sadeas death... I doubt Kaladin or Shallan or Skar and Drehy would have simply let Adolin be killed or exiled. And we'd be right back to square one. 

[Vissy]

The lack of believable consequences (or the decision not to show them, as was the case with Sadeas' army) is something that is generally true for any action committed in the series, not just the Sadeas murder. It's just not a focus of these books, and that's fine.

[Philomath]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

To avoid arguing in a thread not designed for it, I'll just open this up here. 

Simply put, you cannot expect justice from an unjust system. The death of Sadeas was the only way to remove a man who was ready to throw an entire nation into war for his own greed and lust for power. 

There was no filing a police report. There was no criminal court or charges. The choices were Assassination/murder, or war between Sadeas and it's allies and the rest of the Kingdom.

When a man who is at a level of power that he cannot be tried has committed acts that cause the deaths of thousands states plainly that he will do so again and again in order to get what he wants, and you have the means to remove the man and prevent that... Do it. 

In our society, this will not (or at least should not) occur. No matter the level of wealth or political power someone achieves, they are still supposed to be held accountable to the law. 

This is not the case with a Highprince. If the choice is the death of one man or a war that will needlessly kill thousands, from a man who is stating plainly that those deaths are coming if he lives as well... 

No questions. 

These are nearly my exact thoughts on this. Everyone knew Sadeas deserved death for what he did to the Kholin army at the tower. Dalinar’s arc in WoR consisted of two goals, figure out the countdown, and find a way to get justice from Sadeas. They nearly accomplished it with Adolin’s duels and if Adolin had had the chance to duel Sadeas and had killed him, no one would have blinked an eye. Storms, almost no one blinked an eye when they found him dead in Urithiru. Before Oathbringer was released I thought Adolin’s consequences would be different, but I was not disappointed with how the book played out and I have seen further analyses here that have further solidified my opinion of being fine with how things turned out. But to those who disagree that is fine too. 

[Winds Alight]

I am glad Sadeas is dead and didn't get the chance to eff up everything Dalinar worked for ...
Sadeas was a great villain in book one and two, but he was way out of his league by the end of WoR. The guy was just straight up stupid enough to go on and keep playing his ridiculous political schemes without realizing that they didn't matter anymore.
There's a Desolation going on and he thinks it's cool to try and bring down one of the few people who ever had a chance to turn the tides in favor of humans.
No, Sadeas. Storm off.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Bigmikey357]

For those who want Adolin to face the music regarding the slaying of Sadeas, Brandon is on record saying that the fallout from that act isn't completely done. In fact, seems to me that the entire surviving Kholin clan has a bunch of turmoil ahead. Adolin and Renarin will learn that Daddy Dearest murdered his mom, Renarin will have to navigate being bonded to a half-voidspren, Shallan will come clean about her Ghostbloods involvement and potentially becomming Jasnah's enemy, Navani gets to grieve a son. Gut punches all around.

[Mage of Lirigon]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

There were consequences for far more than Adolin. Just no legal or political consequences. Which is true of pretty much every other "murder" we know of. 

Szeth has killed a multitude and is now Dalinar's bodyguard. 

Shallan's father. plenty of emotional consequences, and consequences for her family, but legal? Political? That's all washed away with the Veden civil war. 

Which is also why there were no consequences for his relationship. To judge him for it would make her one hell of a hypocrite.She killed her father to protect her brothers. Because she cared. Adolin killed Sadeas because he threatened the people that Adolin cared about and had proven he had the will, means, and lack of remorse to do so again... And Sadeas was nasty on a scale that was both far more reaching, the entirety of Alethkar becomes the analog to Shallan's family, and far more subtle and socially acceptable. Everyone knew what Sadeas was doing, but because he played the political game he was both respected and permitted to continue. 

Even the means by which they killed are comparable, with Shallan's actions arguably worse. He attacked a man with a Dagger in his bad hand because his main hand was injured, which was not hidden and allowed a struggle to ensue, which Sadeas lost. Shallan on the other hand attempted to poison her father, and when that failed strangled him while he was still paralyzed and unable to fight back... How is Shallan's action. Any more defensible than Adolins? 

As to the consequences of Adolins actions there are emotional consequences that he buries himself in work to try and avoid. And there are massive consequences story wise. The way I mentioned above that everyone knew what Sadeas was doing is the very reason that everyone assumed the Kholins were responsible. That assumption, and what was perceived as a lack of action to "find the killer" (work to cover-up is what they more likely thought) on Dalinar's part, created the increasing animosity in Sadeas men that is referenced over the book and ultimately allows their possession by Odium's forces in the end. 

Much of the ending of the book is only possible because of the manner in which Sadeas died, and that that death was glossed over by larger events. The very frustration some seem to feel about the "lack of consequences" is the frustration that drove Sadeas' men to be the thrill driven army at the end. 

There were plenty of consequences for Adolins actions. There just weren't the consequences that people expected, and some think Adolin deserved. Consequences that in my opinion would have been both a distraction from the larger events of the story and ultimately resulted in little actual punishment anyway. We've seen everyone save Dalinar's reaction to Sadeas death... I doubt Kaladin or Shallan or Skar and Drehy would have simply let Adolin be killed or exiled. And we'd be right back to square one. 

Well put. Considering the legal situation House Sadeas was going to end up in, spending page space debating on legal consequences for Adolin would be a waste of time. 

I do think we'll see peronal consequences for Adolin as well. The seeds were already sprouting at the end of Oathbringer. Dalinar's idyllic, and frankly wildly unhealthy for the both of them, view of Adolin has been shattered, and despite his move towards independence at the end, Adolin still thinks of his father as half a god, and it's never a nice feeling when your god is disappointed in you.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[galendo]

My main problem with this argument:

Quote

Simply put, you cannot expect justice from an unjust system. The death of Sadeas Ehlokar was the only way to remove a man who was ready to throw an entire nation into war for his own greed fear and lust for power ignorance. 

There was no filing a police report. There was no criminal court or charges. The choices were Assassination/murder, or war between Sadeas Kholin and it's allies and the rest of the Kingdom.  [This is a false dichotomy, by the way.]

When a man who is at a level of power that he cannot be tried has committed acts that cause the deaths of thousands states implies plainly that he will do so again and again in order to get what he wants, and you have the means to remove the man and prevent that... Do it. 

In our society, this will not (or at least should not) occur. No matter the level of wealth or political power someone achieves, they are still supposed to be held accountable to the law. 

This is not the case with a Highprince king. If the choice is the death of one man or a civil war that will needlessly kill thousands, from a man who is stating implying plainly that those deaths are coming if he lives as well...

 If you think that Sadeas should have been assassinated for the greater good, then it seems you're also arguing that Ehlokar should have been assassinated for the greater good.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong.  But it seems weird to me to have so many people be in favor of Adolin murdering Sadeas when they are simultaneously against Moash murdering Elhokar.

[Winds Alight]

7 minutes ago, galendo said:

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong.  But it seems weird to me to have so many people be in favor of Adolin murdering Sadeas when they are simultaneously against Moash murdering Elhokar.

Maybe that is because Elhokar actually went ahead and tried to be a decent human being and become a good king who does the best for his country.

[CrazyRioter]

Yeah Elohkar was weak-willed and easily manipulated but he was not fundamentally a bad person and he was trying to do better. Sadeas was a scheming self-serving cremhole who cared for nothing but power. and didn't care that the game had changed.

[Bigmikey357]

15 minutes ago, galendo said:

My main problem with this argument:

 If you think that Sadeas should have been assassinated for the greater good, then it seems you're also arguing that Ehlokar should have been assassinated for the greater good.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong.  But it seems weird to me to have so many people be in favor of Adolin murdering Sadeas when they are simultaneously against Moash murdering Elhokar.

Moash wasn't doing so for any type of greater good or threat to his family or anything. A misplaced sense of vengeance was Moash's sole motivation. 

[Nymeros]

Also explaining why I found Elokhars death super satisfying.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Everything Calderis said.

Also, I expect we will see some kind of trial for Adolin in book four. I'm thinking something along the lines of Perin Goldeneyes, where his own sense of honor makes him demand a trial while everyone around him tries to get him to just take an easy way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Renarin become the heir.

[+ILuvHats]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Moash wasn't doing so for any type of greater good or threat to his family or anything. A misplaced sense of vengeance was Moash's sole motivation. 

I definitely agree that Adolin’s murder was much more justified than Moash’s, but I’m gonna go ahead and play devil’s advocate here. I’d say vengeance was definitely a factor not only in Moash’s actions but also in Adolin’s, though Adolin’s motivations we’re more mixed. The difference between the two murders, as you pointed out, is that Sadeas presented a legitimate threat in the future to Adolin’s family while Elhokar was not in the same position regarding Moash. Take into consideration though that as Moash perceived it, Elhokar has already killed his family, while Sadeas, though he had certainly tried, had not yet succeeded to do the same to Adolin. So, Moash was more justified in his actions compared to Adolin than you give him credit for. Also, regarding the fact that Elhokar’s intentions were much less malevolent than Sadeas’s, remember that Moash hadn’t seen any of the character development Elhokar had gone through at the end of WoR and in OB. He still perceived the king as a weak and lazy man with selfish intentions who had basically murdered his family. I think deep down Moash realized Elhokar might not deserve death, which might have even contributed to the lack of satisfaction the death gave him. However, I doubt Moash could have allowed himself to consciously consider that Elhokar didn’t deserve death after everything he’d been through. 

That being said;

storm Moash.

[Calderis]

@galendo first off, with the way the system is structured, I completely understand Moash's motivations with Elhokar, and I never had a problem with that. I defended Moash on multiple occasions prior to OB. His surrender of Agency that came with killing Jezrien, becoming essentially a leashed dog, is where I felt he turned.

Secondly, ignorance is not equal to malice. Someone can be made aware of the harm that they have inflicted and make attempts to correct it. Elhokar was trying to be a better man, though even that was for the wrong reasons in my view. 

Sadeas was maliciously attempting to seize control at any cost. He was fully aware of what he'd done and intended to do so again. 

That is not the same thing. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Calderis

[Bigmikey357]

I'm not saying Moash didn't have a right to his anger, I think he was targeting the wrong person. Elkohar was negligent in putting those oldsters in prison and forgetting about them, certainly true. But Roshone engineered the entire mess. He knew the people personally. He asked the favor of an inattentive king. He decided he had to get rid of his business competition by any means. If Moash should have had passionate hatred for any body, it should have been Roshone. 

If Roshone was to be targeted it's a simple matter indeed. He's more accessible, a minor lighteyed noble in an out of the way country estate. Kal could tell him the exact location of his dude including the house he lived in. He wouldn't have had to betray a friend to take his revenge. And as a Shardbearer no one would have dared question him much less tried to apprehend him. He could have run that quick errand and been back in the Bridge 4 fold with no issues. He wouldn't have to love Elkohar but he could have guarded him without undue malice aforethought.

What happened is that someone sold him a dream and he couldn't let go of it. As I think about it, Odium had to be working on him nearly from the start for him to bypass the dude personally responsible for his family's imprisonment in favor of an uncaring judicial system. Roshone wasn't just a cog in the machine, he played the grandparents and the government both. Yet when reckoning time comes and Moash has power he goes for a dude that was hardly involved.

 

[galendo]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Moash wasn't doing so for any type of greater good or threat to his family or anything. A misplaced sense of vengeance was Moash's sole motivation. 

As ILuvHats said, Moash was motivated by a lot more than vengeance.  He probably sincerely thought -- and had good reason to believe -- that Elhokar was a terrible king who was a cancer upon Alethkar.  Heck, Kaladin came to almost exactly the same conclusion before deciding to save Elhokar after all.  Remeber, Moash's most recent experience with the king isn't his grandparents' murders; it was Elhokar throwing Kaladin in prison when he saved the king's cousin's life and asked the same boon of Elhokar that Adolin did.  Not sure if Moash knows that Elhokar actually wanted to execute Kaladin for it or not, but...this sort of injustice is the king's stock in trade.  Moash has plenty of reason to think the king's death serves the greater good.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

@galendo first off, with the way the system is structured, I completely understand Moash's motivations with Elhokar, and I never had a problem with that. I defended Moash on multiple occasions prior to OB. His surrender of Agency that came with killing Jezrien, becoming essentially a leashed dog, is where I felt he turned.

Secondly, ignorance is not equal to malice. Someone can be made aware of the harm that they have inflicted and make attempts to correct it. Elhokar was trying to be a better man, though even that was for the wrong reasons in my view. 

Sadeas was maliciously attempting to seize control at any cost. He was fully aware of what he'd done and intended to do so again. 

That is not the same thing. 

Well, if your thoughts on Moash's actions in WoR are in line with your thoughts on Adolin's, then I don't have an issue.  It's only when people take different (and in my mind, logically inconsistent) positions on the issue that I feel obliged to speak.

As far as comparing ignorance to malice, in a vacuum I agree with you.  But Elhokar's isn't your ordinary, run-of-the-mill ignorance.  It's an ignorance that he's carefully kept and cultivated, closing his eyes to anything he doesn't want to see.  He treats lighteyes and darkeyes completely differently and blindly rejects any insinuation that this might be a problem.  (Again, see his reaction to Adolin's and Kaladin's requests for a duel.  What kind of ingrate tries to execute the man who just saved his cousin's life and position?)

As near as I can tell, Elhokar had neither the intent nor the desire to fix his many instances of injustice.  When he seeks Kaladin out in WoR, it's not really because he wants to be a better king; it's because he wants people to respect him like they do Kaladin.  And is there actually ever an instance of Elhokar regretting his past injustices?  Is there ever an instance of him actually treating darkeyes like actual people (Knights and squires don't count)?  Maybe there is, I don't remember OB well enough to be certain.  But I can't think of anything.

The sort of ignorance that Elhokar cultivated -- a willful and reckless disregard for his effect on those beneath him -- bears little difference from actual malice.

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Also, I expect we will see some kind of trial for Adolin in book four. I'm thinking something along the lines of Perin Goldeneyes, where his own sense of honor makes him demand a trial while everyone around him tries to get him to just take an easy way out. I wouldn't be surprised to see Renarin become the heir.

No offense, but I hope not.  The time for Adolin to face the music was in Oathbringer.  I'd have loved to see consequences then, but trying to impose any similar consequences now would seem artificial.  I can't see any reasonable way to bring Adolin to justice that wouldn't feel contrived.  For better or worse, that ship has sailed.

[Calderis]

@galendo again, I don't really disagree here. Elhokar was trying to be better... But it was driven by a selfish desire to be respected and loved and viewed as a good king, not out of a will to help his people. I've said many times, making people feel like Elhokars death was a major loss was one of the most masterful things Brandon did in OB, because prior to it, everyone regarded him as a selfish, whiny, immature brat, and he wouldn't have been missed...

All that aside, improvement has to start somewhere, and I do believe that he was trying. 

36 minutes ago, galendo said:

The sort of ignorance that Elhokar cultivated -- a willful and reckless disregard for his effect on those beneath him -- bears little difference from actual malice.

I detest willful ignorance, and it's one of the reasons that I can't stand Elhokar... But I still disagree that it's on the same level of intentional slaughter and outright greed of someone like Sadeas. It's sure as hell not a good thing, but when confronted this mindset can be forced to change. Unwillingly, and bitterly, but it can. 

36 minutes ago, galendo said:

No offense, but I hope not.  The time for Adolin to face the music was in Oathbringer.  I'd have loved to see consequences then, but trying to impose any similar consequences now would seem artificial.  I can't see any reasonable way to bring Adolin to justice that wouldn't feel contrived.  For better or worse, that ship has sailed.

This part I don't understand. During OB, no one knew that Adolin was the killer. That is no longer true. If personal external consequences are going to occur, they couldn't have happened until after the end. 

Either Adolin would have to have been found out earlier, or those consequences could not occur until a time we've yet to see. 

Why would consequences coming now that his actions are not totally secret be out of place? 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Calderis

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

As ILuvHats said, Moash was motivated by a lot more than vengeance.  He probably sincerely thought -- and had good reason to believe -- that Elhokar was a terrible king who was a cancer upon Alethkar.  Heck, Kaladin came to almost exactly the same conclusion before deciding to save Elhokar after all.  Remeber, Moash's most recent experience with the king isn't his grandparents' murders; it was Elhokar throwing Kaladin in prison when he saved the king's cousin's life and asked the same boon of Elhokar that Adolin did.  Not sure if Moash knows that actually wanted to execute Kaladin for it or not, but...this sort of injustice is the king's stock in trade.  Moash has plenty of reason to think the king's death serves the greater good

Sure Moash could have done it for the good of the country. But Kaladin called him on that chull dung.

“They’re traitors,”Kaladin said. “I want nothing to do with them.”

“You said you’d consider!”

“I said that,”Kaladin said softly, “so that they’d let me leave. We have a duty, Moash.”

“Is it greater than the duty to the country itself?”

“You don’t care about the country,”Kaladin snapped. “You just want to pursue your grudge.”

“All right, fine..."

WOR Chapter 46

I can admit my bias though. For Moash the thing that sticks in my craw isn't really that he wants to off Elkohar. His reasons are stupid but whatever, emotions aren't rational. It's the betrayal. Betrayal is one of my hot button topics so I'm more likely to judge a character harshly if they engage in those types of behaviours.

1 hour ago, galendo said:

 

 

[insert_anagram_here]

I agree. Sadeas deserved death. He had a hand in the burning of Rathalas (maybe even more than the Kholins) and the use of bridgemen as human shields to make passage, fodder essentially, just to get the upper hand in a war of attrition was disgusting. He obviously didn’t care about human lives and be probably wanted to usurp the Kholins.

But I disagree with the way that he died.

He should’ve had a way to defend himself. Maybe if he had a chance, in a court of law, we could’ve found out that there is misinformation in the things we are accusing him. And if a court of law doesn’t exist, he should’ve at least had a weapon in hand to thwart off someone trying to kill him. This wasn’t even done in a time of war, where he would normally expect assassins to come at him, he wouldn’t leave himself unprotected like that if it was.

And I especially disagree with the assassination by a member of the ruling family. It turns monarchy into tyranny.

When the Kholins are the ruling family and they want to establish or keep a certain order over Alethkar, their actions should be an example of what they want the rest of the kingdom to uphold, not chaotic. Killing off any opposition when they do not even have a chance to defend themselves, proves that this is not a kingdom of order, but a kingdom of fear.

The end does not justify the means; journey before destination.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

He should’ve had a way to defend himself.

He did attempt to defend himself. Adolin attacked with a dagger in his weaker hand because his good hand was injured. All thing considered, I don't think Sadeas was defenseless. 

4 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

And I especially disagree with the assassination by a member of the ruling family. It turns monarchy into tyranny.

This wasn't an assassination. It was murder yes, but it was unplanned and provoked by Sadeas himself. 

5 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The end does not justify the means; journey before destination.

Those words can mean that to some, but they do not mean that universally.

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

The first oath is not that simple. 

[insert_anagram_here]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Adolin attacked with a dagger

Adolin had a dagger. Sadeas didn't have one. This wasn't a battle of equal power.

On 2/16/2019 at 8:25 AM, Calderis said:

The choices were Assassination/murder, or war between Sadeas and it's allies and the rest of the Kingdom.

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This wasn't an assassination.

So I guess you've changed your mind to your original post then.

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Those words can mean that to some, but they do not mean that universally.

Yes of course, but we are talking about establishing a kingdom here, we need to establish what it means nationally, otherwise it's only chaos.