"Why I don't like Adolin" / "Why I do like Adolin"

[insert_anagram_here]

He didn't have it in hand tho. Both of them could've taken a few seconds to summon their blades and have a showdown right then and there, but that's not what happened.

 

[Sedside]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Adolin helped change Kaladins perception on lighteyes because he was a good person. He has helped Shallan by being a good person as well.

How exactly? What of his actions in particular led to the change in Kaladin's treatment of lighteyes? Protection of the prostitute? If we removed this action from the plot Kaladin would not change his opinion on lighteyes? I will repeat again, that he behave awfully with Kaladin in the beginning of WoR, swinging, again, an unprotected shardblade at him at the training grounds and kicking him while wearing a shardplate. Is it how a good person would behave? We can even forget other cases, like his phrases at the meetings ("Does bridgeboy really have to be here?" or something like that), him provoking Kaladin to mount Dreamstorm, which was already after their fight with Szeth. Kaladin had to save him 3 times before Adolin had turned to him. Yes, after that he believed him about Amaram and so on, but it is Kaladin's merit that Adolin believed him, not Adolin's kindness to Kaladin.

And how exactly did he help Shallan? Shallan is like in her worst state in the end of OB. All right, she stopped producing new alts, but that's something she did on her own, she did it during TC battle, in that moment, when new alts wanted to come out, but she had stopped them and fixed on only three. Actually, that's the moment I think Sanderson meant when he said in WoB that Wit would say that Shallan made a step forward but still has ways to go.

I mean, that's nice, that you think he helps people by being a good person, but could you please explain your point, how exactly his goodness helps other people? If I could help anyone just by being good, it would be nice, but I think, that to help someone you must actually do something, not just be around and be good.

[Toaster Retribution]

38 minutes ago, Sedside said:

How exactly? What of his actions in particular led to the change in Kaladin's treatment of lighteyes? Protection of the prostitute? If we removed this action from the plot Kaladin would not change his opinion on lighteyes? I will repeat again, that he behave awfully with Kaladin in the beginning of WoR, swinging, again, an unprotected shardblade at him at the training grounds and kicking him while wearing a shardplate. Is it how a good person would behave? We can even forget other cases, like his phrases at the meetings ("Does bridgeboy really have to be here?" or something like that), him provoking Kaladin to mount Dreamstorm, which was already after their fight with Szeth. Kaladin had to save him 3 times before Adolin had turned to him. Yes, after that he believed him about Amaram and so on, but it is Kaladin's merit that Adolin believed him, not Adolin's kindness to Kaladin.

And how exactly did he help Shallan? Shallan is like in her worst state in the end of OB. All right, she stopped producing new alts, but that's something she did on her own, she did it during TC battle, in that moment, when new alts wanted to come out, but she had stopped them and fixed on only three. Actually, that's the moment I think Sanderson meant when he said in WoB that Wit would say that Shallan made a step forward but still has ways to go.

I mean, that's nice, that you think he helps people by being a good person, but could you please explain your point, how exactly his goodness helps other people? If I could help anyone just by being good, it would be nice, but I think, that to help someone you must actually do something, not just be around and be good.

I think that Adolin actually does change Kaladins perception by being nice. Adolin believes Kaladin about Amaram, and imprisons himself to show solidarity (and that is a merit for him). He doesn’t do an Amaram when Kaladin rejects his Shards, which I think is incredibly important. They work together to protect Dalinar after the arena fight as well. Kaladin also sees how he treats low ranked servants with kindness (he allows them to try his helmet on) and watches him save the prostitute. All these acts makes Kaladin realize that Adolin isn’t a horrible person. He realizes that about Shallan and Dalinar as well, and those realizations are important in removing his bias against lighteyes. 

As for Shallan, she needs someone who is kind to her, without being too broken. Kaladin has his own troubles, and cant really be that person. Jasnah is her teacher. Her soldiers are basically her employees. Adolin is a good person close to her who can brighten up her day a bit, listen, and be there for her. She needs him, I think.

[Llayne]

I'd say they were both bigoted, and both helped each other grow over course of books 2 and 3. 

Adolin is nice to darkeyes, treating them kindly as long as the established social dynamic is in place. Lighteyes rule over darkeyes... that's the way things are 'supposed' to be. Within this social dynamic Adolin has no problem being kind to soldiers and servants, and actually treating them like real people. In this I see Adolin as simply being a product of his culture and station. 

Where he has a problem is when a darkeyes starts moving above his station. I think that's his initial dislike of Kaldadin... although that was probably reinforced by Kaladin being outside the chain of command, being overly familiar with the King and Dalinar... and Kaladin's abrasive attitude toward Adolin and lighteyes in general. Let's not pretend Kaladin is always pleasant to be around.

While I do think Adolin helped shift Kaladin's perception of lighteyes, he wasn't the main catalyst. Nor was Dalinar. Dalinar and Adolin's actions might have made Stormblessed judge them on their own merits as opposed to lumping them with alm the other lighteyes, but IMO the big changes came from his time in the Wall Guard. The comments about how the tenners conversations sounded exactly like darkeyed soldiers and seeing their distrust of higher lighteyes was crucial... along with the off screen time he spent with them getting to know them as 'real' people.

Circling back around, I dont think Adolin has completely erased his bias either... at least we haven't seen 'proof' of that on screen. I think he's simply started judging Kaladin on his own merits... and started making adjustments in his 'social dynamic' to account for Radiants. 

[Mage of Lirigon]

 

19 hours ago, RayW2 said:

But that's the thing. That's the reason I think he is irresponsible. Taking responsibilities means you agreeing to do your duties even if you don't like them. As long as it is your duty you must do it.

Adolin takes responsibilities he likes and refuses to take those he does not like. This is IRresponsibility. He is immature. 

Dalnar does not want to carry responsibility for the entire human population of Roshar. He does not want to be a diplomat. He does not want to sit on meetings with world leaders. But he does, because he needs to do it. This is his duty, no matter how hard it is, no matter how much he does not want to do it.

Adolin refuses to be a king, because he does not want this responsibility, because as he has said himself, he would not have enough free time for entertaining.

Dueling is not his responsibility, it is his hobby. He agrees to do something as long as he enjoys the activity, but he never goes beyond his comfort zone like, again, Dalinar. 

Courting Shallan is not...responsibility either. 

We've seen Adolin do duties he doesn't like and frankly didn't even want to do before. He didn't avoid becoming king just to play around. There's a reason Brandon wrote that conversation with Azure: duty is not, or shouldn't be as simple as doing what is commanded of you. It's about considering, really considering what would be the best way to dispatch said duty. Dalinar does what he does because frankly, no one else can, for various reasons. Letting someone better suited pick up your responsibilities can be for the best sometime.

 

 

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

-snip-

Absolutely brilliant, as usual. If I had a million upvotes, I'd give them to you.

 

17 hours ago, Sedside said:

Yeah, we have Janala, Danlan and Malasha. 

We know little to nothing of his relationships with them, and what we do know, he certainly seems to be putting more of an effort in.

 

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It is not a responsibility to tell someone he is wrong and has to do other things.

As a son and heir, it absolutely is his repsonsibility to tell Dalinar if he thinks he's going mad.

 

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Well, if Adolin is is good and nice guy, kind to everyone and so on, why do people think he would be a bad king?

Being a good person and a good king are two totally different things. Some might even say they're mutually exclusive. Alethkar, and the rest of the world that depends on the alliance to defend them, needs extraordinary leadership right now.

 

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Ialai woudn't agree with you. Someone isn't crem because you think he is crem. 

Sadeas is crem because of his own actions, not what I think.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon
De-escalating

[deacon]

I lean positive, I guess? I hadn't thought that much about him until I came here. Turns out there's a loooot of conversation about him and I'm not sure I was prepared for that, ha ha.. So I'm not sure I'm ready for either of the split topics about him. I don't know, I guess I liked him? I'll have to do some more thinking, I guess. Any other I-didn't-feel-that-strongly people out there? 

[Sedside]

11 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

He didn't avoid becoming king just to play around.

Not exactly:

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More, he felt his own growing worry that he might actually have to take the throne. He’d grown up knowing it could happen, but he’d also grown up wishing—desperately—that it never would. In his quiet moments, he’d assumed this hesitance was because a king couldn’t apply himself to things like dueling and … well … enjoying life.

 

11 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

We know little to nothing of his relationships with them, and what we do know, he certainly seems to be putting more of an effort in.

I think, we know enough. We know, that he didn't pay any attention to what those girls wanted, only what he himself wanted. I don't think a lot of screentime is needed to show that, though we still have a lot of screentime with these 3 (even 4, there was also Rilla) girls.

11 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

As a son and heir, it absolutely is his repsonsibility to tell Dalinar if he thinks he's going mad.

Saying things without taking into account the consequences of saying these things in not a responsibility. You quoted only the part of my thought here, I will repeat. He said to Dalinar he was crazy. Dalinar decided to abdicate. Adolin said "let's ignore it and leave it all like it was". Then why say it in the first place? Is this responsibility? To say something, and when it goes poorly, take your words back?

11 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Being a good person and a good king are two totally different things. Some might even say they're mutually exclusive. Alethkar, and the rest of the world that depends on the alliance to defend them, needs extraordinary leadership right now.

Well, when things come to Adolin discussion, "being a good person" is something that is constantly considered only in a convenient way. Being a good person is enough to change the world, to be Shallan's husband, to change Kaladin's perception of lighteyes, to stop the Desolation, and to cure cancer, but it's not enough to be a good king, when it comes to justification of Adolin's lack of desire to be a king.

11 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Sadeas is crem because of his own actions, not what I think.

I'm getting to understand it is useless, but I will try again. You think he is crem. You are the one who wrote this post, and it is your opinion, that Sadeas is crem. Someone can still have another opinion, do you agree with that? Or other people are not allowed to have their own opinions, different from yours? In case they are allowed, then continue to Adolin. Adolin thinks Sadeas is crem. Someone else doesn't think so, e.g. Ialai. She is Sadeas's wife and she loves him. She is genuinely sorrowful about his death. But as Adolin thinks Sadeas is crem, he decides that he can kill Sadeas because of it. Well, even not on his own, it's his anger, that drives him into this action, but whatever. And now if we stretch this logic further to other characters and let them decide, whom they can kill, if they think they are crem, we can end up in a world with the only survivors there being Clever Mr T, the Heralds, Hoid, and Cultivation.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Sedside

[Turin Turambar]

On 2/15/2019 at 6:23 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

I cant make chicken curry. I can probably make rice though. And I can be an okay cook even if I can’t make chicken curry. Rice and fish sticks work. I think that is the point of Adolin. Most people in real life aren’t chicken curry. Most are rice, or mashed potatoes. And Adolin is the character that shows that thats fine. Rice can be a great meal. You don’t need to have a super-tragic backstory or an amazing redemption arc to be a hero. Being a good guy is enough. I think that is what Adolin represents, and that is why he is important. 

Also, I love your food metaphor. 

I agree - and hope that Adolin stays ordinary (take that as you will). Who would take over his role otherwise? Navani? Kadash? Actually, Kadash would make a great character...but not for this purpose.

[RayW2]

20 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

 

We've seen Adolin do duties he doesn't like and frankly didn't even want to do before. He didn't avoid becoming king just to play around. There's a reason Brandon wrote that conversation with Azure: duty is not, or shouldn't be as simple as doing what is commanded of you. It's about considering, really considering what would be the best way to dispatch said duty. Dalinar does what he does because frankly, no one else can, for various reasons. Letting someone better suited pick up your responsibilities can be for the best sometime.

 

 

That's not what Adolin himself thinks of situation. I wanted to bring the quote, but someone already did it. Adolin doesn't want to be a King, because he does not want to make his life difficult, to take responsibilities and sacrifice his "free time".

Dalinar is not good at politics. He could find someone to do it instead of carrying all responsibilities alone, but he decided to be better, do beyond his comfort zone and learn something new, something even unnatural to him. And he did learn well. When Dalinar is asked why he is doing this he answered simply "because I need to". That's his duties. Even if he doesn't want/like it, which he clearly stated. This is responsibility.

Adolin never goes beyond his comfort zone and never even try. That's why he's never had any responsibilities in his entire life. Another good example is in the first book when he insulted Dalinar and shouted at him in from of his men, unintentionally forced Dalinar to think about abdication, then realized what exactly did he do and what does it mean for him. Once he realizes it means he's the one to become a Highprince and hold responsibilities (and no free time for wine, girls and magazines) he immediately begs Dalinar to change his mind. That's Adolin's "responsibility".

[Mage of Lirigon]

13 hours ago, Sedside said:

Not exactly:

You forgot the rest of the quote. 

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What if it went deeper? What if he’d always known inconsistency lurked within him? He couldn’t keep pretending he was the man his father wanted him to be.

As you can see it has less to do with him wanting to enjoy himself and more with him realizing that he is not the man his father thinks he is and how he thinks that means he's not suited for this job.

Should he have taken the job regardless? 

Perhaps, but then again Alethkar has already had a king who felt he wasn't good enough and look what happened there. 

 

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Saying things without taking into account the consequences of saying these things in not a responsibility. You quoted only the part of my thought here, I will repeat. He said to Dalinar he was crazy. Dalinar decided to abdicate. Adolin said "let's ignore it and leave it all like it was". Then why say it in the first place? Is this responsibility? To say something, and when it goes poorly, take your words back?

Adolin's intention was to get Dalinar to stop being so reckless with the visions, not for him to abdicate.

If I tell someone they have a drinking problem that doesn't mean I think they should quit their job, it means I think they should get some help.

Should Adolin have thought more about how Dalinar would have reacted? Sure he himself says the same thing, but trying to reconcile the misunderstanding is not the same thing as being irresponsible. 

 

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Well, when things come to Adolin discussion, "being a good person" is something that is constantly considered only in a convenient way. Being a good person is enough to change the world, to be Shallan's husband, to change Kaladin's perception of lighteyes, to stop the Desolation, and to cure cancer, but it's not enough to be a good king, when it comes to justification of Adolin's lack of desire to be a king

Being a good person is a good thing in your personal relationships not so much for politics. 

 

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I'm getting to understand it is useless, but I will try again. You think he is crem. You are the one who wrote this post, and it is your opinion, that Sadeas is crem. Someone can still have another opinion, do you agree with that? Or other people are not allowed to have their own opinions, different from yours? In case they are allowed, then continue to Adolin. Adolin thinks Sadeas is crem. Someone else doesn't think so, e.g. Ialai. She is Sadeas's wife and she loves him. She is genuinely sorrowful about his death. But as Adolin thinks Sadeas is crem, he decides that he can kill Sadeas because of it. Well, even not on his own, it's his anger, that drives him into this action, but whatever. And now if we stretch this logic further to other characters and let them decide, whom they can kill, if they think they are crem, we can end up in a world with the only survivors there being Clever Mr T, the Heralds, Hoid, and Cultivation.

You're basically making an appeal to amorality here. That there are no bad actions and no bad people, because there are a multitude of opinions on how to view things.

You're free to have your own opinion on people's actions but rather than a subjective viewpoint I choose to base things on a person's actions.

Sadeas chose to betray not only thousands of people but his own country as well. You can have your own opinions on his reasoning for his actions, of course.

But while context can aid in understanding the morality of an action it cannot change its nature. Sadeas is crem. You are free to view him however you like though. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Llayne]

14 hours ago, Sedside said:

Saying things without taking into account the consequences of saying these things in not a responsibility. You quoted only the part of my thought here, I will repeat. He said to Dalinar he was crazy. Dalinar decided to abdicate. Adolin said "let's ignore it and leave it all like it was". Then why say it in the first place? Is this responsibility? To say something, and when it goes poorly, take your words back?

I don't know... if you saw a civilian beating up a cop, responsibility might make you go help out the cop. If the cop later turns out to shoot the civilian, does that make it your fault? The two were clearly in a fight, so shouldn't you have foreseen the consequences of your actions and the escalation of force?

I apologize for the rather tortured example, but I don't think this story-line truly speaks to a lack of responsibility on Adolin's part.

Adolin felt that his father's visions were crazy and that they were leading House Kholin in the wring direction. He could either let it go an let his House fall to ruin or he could try to do something about it. So he confronts Dalinar. 

From the wiki, since I couldn't find the chapter myself.

 

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You aren't well, father, […] We need to stop tiptoeing around it! You need to stop making up increasingly irrational explanations to reason away your lapses! I know it's hard to accept, but sometimes, people get old. Sometimes, the mind stops working right.
I don't know what's wrong. Maybe it's your guilt over Gavilar's death. That book, the Codes, the visions—maybe they're all attempts to find escape, find redemption, something. What you see is not real. Your life now is a rationalization, a way of trying to pretend that what's happening isn't happening. But I'll go to Damnation itself before I'll let you drag the entire house down without speaking my mind on it!
Having heard enough his father dismisses him promptly and as Adolin leaves he tells himself that it was something that had to be said but admits he feels sick that he was the one who had to say it.

Dalinar and Adolin speak to one another some days later when Dalinar calls for the army to mobilize for a plateau skirmish. Adolin apologizes for where and how he said his grievances to his father, though he is not sorry for voicing them.

 

In his mind he wants his father to accept that fact that his visions aren't real.. or at least consider it. He wants Dalinar to seek help. In Adolin's mind his father just needs to go back to the way he used to be. It's as simple as ignoring the visions.

Dalinar, a man of extremes, couldn't accept that fact. It's all or nothing for the Blackthorn... either he's sane or he's crazy. Upon hearing of Dalinar's plan to abdicate Adolin immediately sees that 'of course' this is what his father would do and laments the fact that he didn't think of it.

This speaks more to a lack of experience and forethought on Adolin's part, not a lack of responsibility. 

 

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

If I tell someone they have a drinking problem that doesn't mean I think they should quit their job, it means I think they should get some help.

This was a much better example than mine. 

[Sedside]

13 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

If I tell someone they have a drinking problem that doesn't mean I think they should quit their job, it means I think they should get some help.

It is not "taking responsibility". It is "giving an advice". Everybody is good at giving advices, as long as there is nothing you have to do. If the ability of disturbing the air without contemplating the consequences of those disturbances makes someone a good character, then Adolin is truly the best.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Sedside

[The Feruchemist]

I didn’t like Adolin from the start, and it’s not because he’s a normal person. To me, he isn’t, but gosh he’s annoying. His awkwardness is more jarring than it is charming, he’s like a Star quarterback foot ball player, extremely popular guy but also the social outcast. It makes no sense to me. I don’t find him ordinary at all, mostly for this reason. His strange awkward moments are just weird to me. To me if he was ordinary he would be a bit smoother. That wouldn’t make me like him any better though. To me he’s not ordinary, but... just weird. 

As for his murder of Sadeas, I’m not going to say what he did was right, but I will say that Sadeas needed to die. Adolin did it in a fit of anger, and that is never ok. He wasn’t protecting anyone. He wasn’t acting in self defense. It was very in the heat of the moment. And Adolin saying he would do it again, also not ok. Funny, it seems most of you think either Adolin murdering Sadeas was right or wrong, personally I think Sadeas needed to die, just Adolin doing it in that way was not right. Crimes of passion are never really right, though the outcome of the person being dead, may be good. I just can’t praise, agree with, or condone what Adolin did. And the fact that Wit praised him seriously creeped me out. 

 

 

 

I don’t remember who said this but Adolin being the champion of Odium, I thought it was going to happen by the end of OB. I was wrong, but still. The only way I’d want him to be Radiant is if he turns out to be the man with nine shadows. That would be sick! And probably the only time I would enjoy his character.

[insert_anagram_here]

56 minutes ago, The Feruchemist said:

Funny, it seems most of you think either Adolin murdering Sadeas was right or wrong, personally I think Sadeas needed to die, just Adolin doing it in that way was not right.

I agree 100%! To both your posts! (even if you shouldn't double post!)

[Sedside]

@The Feruchemist, yeah, agree with you totally. Regarding Sadeas - this is exactly my point. I just don't like people justifying this murder by the fact, that Sadeas was crem. I also think he had to die, just not this way.

And about Radiant - 100% agree. I will only accept Radiant Adolin if he will be a Dark Radiant. This will be the only way for me to accept Maya revival thing.

[Jace21]

6 hours ago, The Feruchemist said:

As for his murder of Sadeas, I’m not going to say what he did was right, but I will say that Sadeas needed to die. Adolin did it in a fit of anger, and that is never ok. He wasn’t protecting anyone. He wasn’t acting in self defense. It was very in the heat of the moment. And Adolin saying he would do it again, also not ok. Funny, it seems most of you think either Adolin murdering Sadeas was right or wrong, personally I think Sadeas needed to die, just Adolin doing it in that way was not right. Crimes of passion are never really right, though the outcome of the person being dead, may be good. I just can’t praise, agree with, or condone what Adolin did. And the fact that Wit praised him seriously creeped me out. 

That's fine, but I'll ask you the same question I asked @Sedside earlier in the thread. How do you think Sadeas should have died? 

Trying a social reform during the apocalypse is insane and the legal system couldn't touch him. I have no people disagreeing with me and saying Adolin shouldn't have killed Sadeas but a realistic alternative would be nice.

I also think that "fit of anger" =/= "not protecting anyone. Adolin was enraged, no doubt, but it was Sadeas refusal to let go, threats against his family and past crimes that made Adolin so angry. So he was protecting his family and his people, that was the very reason for his anger, at least in my opinion.

As for Wit congratulating him, Wit is an "ends justify the means type. Remember his "I would let this world burn" speech? He has no issue with people being killed when they need to be.

[Sedside]

28 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

That's fine, but I'll ask you the same question I asked @Sedside earlier in the thread. How do you think Sadeas should have died? 

Oh, I'm sorry, I might have completely missed that!

I'm not sure, how exactly I would want him to die. First of all, not so soon. I was looking forward for his other nasty things for our good team to struggle with. Secondly, not so... unexpected, maybe. I would want it to be more planned. More like Shallan's father, maybe. Hired assassin or Szeth, or even the same old Adolin, but having it planned, maybe finally getting him to their settled duel or whatever.

Anyway, I'm fine with the fact it happened, it is definitely going to serve the plot somehow in the future. I mean, someone may get me wrong again, so I'll explain. In the context of "Adolin is a good guy and Sadeas' murder arc in over" I don't like how it was handled. In the context of "this is far from being over, Adolin is going to face the consequences, and he is not what he seems" I will look forward to see, how it plays out, and I am going to give a credit of trust to Sanderson, that his intention on this plotline is brilliant. Something like that.

[Mage of Lirigon]

8 hours ago, The Feruchemist said:

I didn’t like Adolin from the start, and it’s not because he’s a normal person. To me, he isn’t, but gosh he’s annoying. His awkwardness is more jarring than it is charming, he’s like a Star quarterback foot ball player, extremely popular guy but also the social outcast. It makes no sense to me. I don’t find him ordinary at all, mostly for this reason. His strange awkward moments are just weird to me. To me if he was ordinary he would be a bit smoother. That wouldn’t make me like him any better though. To me he’s not ordinary, but... just weird. 

The dissonance you're seeing is because of Adolin's insecurity about being his father's son. It informs a lot of his behaviour and actions. Of course, you're free to dislike Adolin regardless.

[Llayne]

10 hours ago, Sedside said:

It is not "taking responsibility". It is "giving an advice". Everybody is good at giving advices, as long as there is nothing you have to do. If the ability of disturbing the air without contemplating the consequences of those disturbances makes someone a good character, then Adolin is truly the best.

I wouldn't categorize it as giving advice, more of a confrontation. Adolin confronted his father with a 'truth' that he saw and that nobody else would or could say to the Blackthorn. He was trying to prevent the downfall of his House. Did we see any of his generals speak to Dalinar this way? Did Renarin?  Something needed to be said and nobody else was going to do it, so Adolin took that responsibility.

Standing up to your parents can be difficult for anyone, let alone when your father is the nigh-legendary Blackthorn. The fact that it left both of then shaken afterward should speak to emotional depth of the scene, and what they felt was on the line. 

Part of the problem is that we have the benefit of seeing everything play out, so I understand it's hard not to judge Adolin on the outcome of his actions as opposed to trying to glean his intent from the clues we have.

In a similar vein I don't allow the fact that Jasnah became Queen, and is IMO undoubtedly a better choice than Adolin, override the fact that he not only backed out of that responsibility but (in true Adolin form) didn't look at the consequences. He was prepared to leave the kingdom without a viable leader just because he didn't feel comfortable taking the role. The fact that it worked out for the better doesn't change what he did. Had he been a more mature person at that time he would have accepted the responsibility of being King, despite his own feelings to the contrary. Just as Dalinar took on the burden of diplomat, despite the fact that he felt ill-suited to the task. 

People's mistakes, and how they deal with them, are part of what makes them compelling character. Just refer to ANY of the MC's.

I think Adolin is an interesting character. He's a good person in general, especially on the surface, but he has a dark streak in him born from the cutthroat society of Alethi politics. He's probably more like Sadeas than he would care to admit.

He's also got some deep insecurities, partially due to his mixed heritage (my guess... he's mentioned it a few times but never with any emotion) and the fact that he's the son of the Blackthorn. Dalinar was absent for a good portion of Adolin's young life, and drunk for another significant portion... so not the best father figure. He also lost his mother.

I know BS said he wasn't initially a main character and I don't know if that changed along the way. He's definitely a WIP character, in the 'hypocrite' stage mentioned in the books, and if he doesn't become a MC his growth/arc will likely be spread out over several more books. He's likely to be in this transition stage for a while.

[The Feruchemist]

10 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I agree 100%! To both your posts! (even if you shouldn't double post!)

Oops, and thanks. 

[Singer]

1 hour ago, Llayne said:

I wouldn't categorize it as giving advice, more of a confrontation. Adolin confronted his father with a 'truth' that he saw and that nobody else would or could say to the Blackthorn. He was trying to prevent the downfall of his House. Did we see any of his generals speak to Dalinar this way? Did Renarin?  Something needed to be said and nobody else was going to do it, so Adolin took that responsibility.

Standing up to your parents can be difficult for anyone, let alone when your father is the nigh-legendary Blackthorn. The fact that it left both of then shaken afterward should speak to emotional depth of the scene, and what they felt was on the line. 

Part of the problem is that we have the benefit of seeing everything play out, so I understand it's hard not to judge Adolin on the outcome of his actions as opposed to trying to glean his intent from the clues we have.

In a similar vein I don't allow the fact that Jasnah became Queen, and is IMO undoubtedly a better choice than Adolin, override the fact that he not only backed out of that responsibility but (in true Adolin form) didn't look at the consequences. He was prepared to leave the kingdom without a viable leader just because he didn't feel comfortable taking the role. The fact that it worked out for the better doesn't change what he did. Had he been a more mature person at that time he would have accepted the responsibility of being King, despite his own feelings to the contrary. Just as Dalinar took on the burden of diplomat, despite the fact that he felt ill-suited to the task. 

People's mistakes, and how they deal with them, are part of what makes them compelling character. Just refer to ANY of the MC's.

I think Adolin is an interesting character. He's a good person in general, especially on the surface, but he has a dark streak in him born from the cutthroat society of Alethi politics. He's probably more like Sadeas than he would care to admit.

He's also got some deep insecurities, partially due to his mixed heritage (my guess... he's mentioned it a few times but never with any emotion) and the fact that he's the son of the Blackthorn. Dalinar was absent for a good portion of Adolin's young life, and drunk for another significant portion... so not the best father figure. He also lost his mother.

I know BS said he wasn't initially a main character and I don't know if that changed along the way. He's definitely a WIP character, in the 'hypocrite' stage mentioned in the books, and if he doesn't become a MC his growth/arc will likely be spread out over several more books. He's likely to be in this transition stage for a while.

My favorite post so far! It is so much more complicated than "thing good/thing bad". Adolin is a combination of good and bad and neutral traits and it is just a matter of whether the good out weighs the bad. For me it does, but for some readers clearly not. I think we can all agree there is some grey area, right?

Edited February 18, 2019 by Singer
Curse you autocorrect!!

[agrabes]

5 hours ago, Sedside said:

Oh, I'm sorry, I might have completely missed that!

I'm not sure, how exactly I would want him to die. First of all, not so soon. I was looking forward for his other nasty things for our good team to struggle with. Secondly, not so... unexpected, maybe. I would want it to be more planned. More like Shallan's father, maybe. Hired assassin or Szeth, or even the same old Adolin, but having it planned, maybe finally getting him to their settled duel or whatever.

Anyway, I'm fine with the fact it happened, it is definitely going to serve the plot somehow in the future. I mean, someone may get me wrong again, so I'll explain. In the context of "Adolin is a good guy and Sadeas' murder arc in over" I don't like how it was handled. In the context of "this is far from being over, Adolin is going to face the consequences, and he is not what he seems" I will look forward to see, how it plays out, and I am going to give a credit of trust to Sanderson, that his intention on this plotline is brilliant. Something like that.

As someone who's had this debate in the past - I'm with you in your last paragraph.  I actually like the way Sadeas' death happened so suddenly and unexpectedly, but whether I'll like its impact on the characters depends on the final results.

If it turns out that Adolin gets off scot-free from killing Sadeas (everyone knows about it and doesn't care or the few people who do know already hide it from the rest of the world), then I'll be very disappointed.  If he gets off lightly with it having some impact on his relationships with characters, but they are willing to overlook it due to the Desolation happening then I'll be mildly disappointed but also understand.  This is a relatively minor plot point in the overall SA.

The best outcome, imo, would be if it does have a major impact.  Either as a hint to a future "Dark Adolin" path, or simply as a character growth moment.  For example, a plot where Odium uses this issue as a wedge between our main heroes would be really interesting.  Some people support Adolin 100% and think he did nothing wrong, others are in the "ends justify the means" camp, some don't like what he did but are willing to forgive him, others are against him and think he needs to see jail time, etc.  Then Adolin and whoever sticks with him through this have to win everyone back and try to reforge relationships.  That would be a fun plot, imo.  I'm not sure if it would happen, but I would enjoy it.

[Bigmikey357]

Based on Odium's demonstrated recruiting pitch, I'm not sure Adolin fits his candidate list. Adolin just isn't that dude. I might have picked him going Sith before OB, not so much now. I do predict some major conflict though. In RoW, father and son will get to clash over the worse thing they have ever done, both with each other and with the world at large. These acts will be out in the open for all to scrutinize. Add this to Adolin trying to revive Maya and taking over as Kholin Highprince, Dalinar trying to progress to Ideal 4, and both being important figures in the defense of Roshar from the scourge. It's gonna be a stew.

I think many of us struggle to put Adolin's murder in cultural context. If Adolin lived here then the Sadeas thing likely should result in jail time. But if one views it through the lens of his own culture then he should be applauded for a good play. He killed Sadeas, everyone knows it, nobody witnessed it. There are absolutely people in-world that would look upon that act and raise their estimation of him in their eyes. It's fair as a reader to dislike how the murder went down. It's fair to want consequences for Adolin. But if it turns out that there will be no legal ramifications for the act, that will not be abnormal for this world. 

[agrabes]

47 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Based on Odium's demonstrated recruiting pitch, I'm not sure Adolin fits his candidate list. Adolin just isn't that dude. I might have picked him going Sith before OB, not so much now. I do predict some major conflict though. In RoW, father and son will get to clash over the worse thing they have ever done, both with each other and with the world at large. These acts will be out in the open for all to scrutinize. Add this to Adolin trying to revive Maya and taking over as Kholin Highprince, Dalinar trying to progress to Ideal 4, and both being important figures in the defense of Roshar from the scourge. It's gonna be a stew.

I think many of us struggle to put Adolin's murder in cultural context. If Adolin lived here then the Sadeas thing likely should result in jail time. But if one views it through the lens of his own culture then he should be applauded for a good play. He killed Sadeas, everyone knows it, nobody witnessed it. There are absolutely people in-world that would look upon that act and raise their estimation of him in their eyes. It's fair as a reader to dislike how the murder went down. It's fair to want consequences for Adolin. But if it turns out that there will be no legal ramifications for the act, that will not be abnormal for this world. 

I think the opposite is true regarding Odium's recruiting pitch - Adolin is a perfect candidate for him, or could be.  Remember, we only get limited POV's from Adolin so we don't know everything he is thinking.  Dalinar was Odium's primary target and we had several full POV's from him and up until the immediate section before the end of OB, or at best early scenes in OB we wouldn't have expected that Odium thought he could turn Dalinar.  There are enough instances of Adolin doing things "badly" that the seeds are there.  The biggest one we have is obviously his murder of Sadeas, but there are others.  If you look back to tWoK, he was essentially a selfish kid who couldn't understand why his father was so stuffy and wanted to dispense with the old laws so he could have more fun at court.  That doesn't make Adolin evil or even necessarily a bad person, but it does show that he has the elements of selfishness and emotion that could allow Odium to lead him astray.  Also - he would be a prime target - if Odium could turn Adolin it would cause major problems for the rest of Team Dalinar.

All it would take are a few things happening to put him out of place - for example, maybe the Sadeas story actually comes out and due to public outcry Dalinar is forced to disown him or put him out of any kind of position of power to hold his fragile alliance together.  Then, due to the family strain and maybe some other outside influences (maybe Adolin thinks Shallan has feelings for Kaladin, maybe they have a miscarriage, etc) Adolin and Shallan fall on hard times or even split up.  Maybe even Renarin has to keep his distance to keep up appearances.  If Adolin does run into a lot of hardships in Book 4, you could easily see Odium offering him a way out.  It would be the same pitch as he gave Dalinar and Moash - I'll take your emotions so you don't have to feel them if you serve me.  He can even play the "I'm on the true side of justice, you humans are the true invaders" card to play toward Adolin's sense of justice.  It could happen and Adolin is in a position where it would not be out of place.  We've had too many characters successfully avoid temptation to not see one fall.  I'm not saying it'll happen or that if it does it would be Adolin, but it's definitely not unreasonable to think he could go dark.  Not a twirling his mustache evil because he wants to see people suffer type of evil, but a person who was put in the wrong place at the wrong time that allows an evil mastermind to manipulate him into doing the wrong thing tragic kind of evil.  

Even if Adolin doesn't go dark that doesn't mean Odium couldn't use his murder of Sadeas as a wedge.  What he did was against Alethi law, Ialai Sadeas is definitely going to be trying to make a legal or public appeal argument against Adolin and/or Dalinar over Sadeas' death in book 4.  It would be really easy for Odium to whisper in the ear of one or more of the key players to try put doubts in their minds about Adolin and Dalinar's rule.

In terms of the cultural context for Sadeas' murder - I don't think you're remembering the Alethi culture correctly.  It's considered cowardly to assassinate someone or kill them in cold blood when they aren't expecting a fight.  If Adolin had marched up to Sadeas and forced him into a duel that was a mostly fair fight, then it would be applauded as a strong play.  That is not what he did - he surprised Sadeas and murdered him before Sadeas could defend himself.  The fact that he ultimately killed Sadeas is not viewed negatively in Alethi society - it's the fact that he did it dishonorably.  Another theme of the books though is that Dalinar is trying to change the values of all societies within Roshar.  He is trying to change the idea that might makes right which dominates Alethi culture.  So, especially in his own father's eyes and over time in the eyes of the general public this is going to be viewed more and more negatively.  

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Another theme of the books though is that Dalinar is trying to change the values of all societies within Roshar.  He is trying to change the idea that might makes right which dominates Alethi culture.  So, especially in his own father's eyes and over time in the eyes of the general public this is going to be viewed more and more negatively.  

Plus, it will make Dalinar seem like a hypocrite. Because there will probably be some, who then believe, that Dalinar ordered Adolin to do it, given how known Adolin's loyalty towards his father is.