"Why I don't like Adolin" / "Why I do like Adolin"

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Sadeas died because he was crem. Adolin lost control of himself for sure, but let's not pretend Sadeas was an innocent bystander. And frankly, Sadeas deserves no sorrow from Adolin or anyone that was at the Tower the day he betrayed them, none at all.

Just because someone is crem, doesn't mean they deserve to die.

I never pretended that Sadeas was innocent.

8 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

That's not why he did it.

Of course it is. That is what provoked him to finally do it. Sadeas taunting and threatening Dalinar.

Anyway, this is turning into all against one again anyway. Good night.

[insert_anagram_here]

@Toaster Retribution@Mage of Lirigon

Don't tell me what to like please, I don't read fantasy for the 'plain rice' characters. If I wanted to read that I'd pick another genre or hobby. So, as moderators said above accept that other people disagree with you.

As for Sadeas' murder, I've said it before and I'll say it again. He was unarmed, it wasn't self-defense. Adolin shoved a knife through his father's former ally over exchanged heated words. If you consider that self-defense I'm glad I'm having this conversation online with you.

oh and welcome @Llayne I like the way you express yourself even if I do not agree with you. It's so straight forward. It feels like we've met before in the past.

Edited February 16, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@Toaster Retribution@Mage of Lirigon

Don't tell me what to like please, I don't read fantasy for the 'plain rice' characters. If I wanted to read that I'd pick another genre or hobby. So, as moderators said above accept that other people disagree with you.

I would recommend indeed that people should be focused on their thoughts and focus on why they feel a certain way.

[Llayne]

Anagram - I used to post on the Jim Butcher forums a few years ago, and a Star Wars forum years before that... but that's about it. 

I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere before, but since I just finished a reread of OB I can't help but compare the communities fascination of Adolin with Wit's lecture on art at the end of the book. "Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate - but at least being hated is better than nothing."

[Chaos]

4 minutes ago, Llayne said:

I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere before, but since I just finished a reread of OB I can't help but compare the communities fascination of Adolin with Wit's lecture on art at the end of the book. "Nobody will like everything, everybody dislikes something, someone loves that thing you hate - but at least being hated is better than nothing."

That is certainly highly relevant when it comes to this discussion, that's for sure!

Thanks for being here, Llayne! I'm glad new members are joining in.  

[Eluvianii]

There's one thing I'm really bad at, and it's disliking things. When it comes to stories, this usually includes loving every single character to death. Adolin was close to being an exception, until Oathbringer happened that is.

I didn't dislike Adolin and I enjoyed his conversations, it's just that he didn't appear to be doing anything too important and he sorta just was there.

But OB in its entirety is like an enormous announcement for book 4, saying that his character is just about to start.

After reading OB I realized that in book 1 and 2 he appears to be denying things. He dived into important matters when he had to but went back to his normal life immediately after, he didn't want things to change from the usual and comfortable way they had been for years. That I can relate to. So for the most part, he didn't appear to care about what everyone else cared about, you know, the end of the world and all that.

But in OB his bubble starts falling apart and trouble begins to rain on him: You wanted to keep killing Sadeas a secret? Good luck now that the entire kingdom knows about it; You think you know the real Shallan? Have fun finding out about that now that you're married to her; You thought that you could just slide by everything that's happening and live happily ever after away from it? Well too bad, face it, the world is ending, your country is falling apart and you're a central political piece. Take responsibility.

Brandon just dumped a load of problems on him and didn't resolve any. Meaning that things are looking grim for him in SA4.

I'm personally looking forward to seeing if he can keep his carefree personality while dealing with all that. For the people that want him to suffer, I think you just got what you wanted.

[RayW2]

8 hours ago, Lidolas said:

He works hard at what he cares about.

He takes responsibility when he needs to. 

But that's the thing. That's the reason I think he is irresponsible. Taking responsibilities means you agreeing to do your duties even if you don't like them. As long as it is your duty you must do it.

Adolin takes responsibilities he likes and refuses to take those he does not like. This is IRresponsibility. He is immature. 

Dalnar does not want to carry responsibility for the entire human population of Roshar. He does not want to be a diplomat. He does not want to sit on meetings with world leaders. But he does, because he needs to do it. This is his duty, no matter how hard it is, no matter how much he does not want to do it.

Adolin refuses to be a king, because he does not want this responsibility, because as he has said himself, he would not have enough free time for entertaining.

Dueling is not his responsibility, it is his hobby. He agrees to do something as long as he enjoys the activity, but he never goes beyond his comfort zone like, again, Dalinar. 

Courting Shallan is not...responsibility either. 

[Calderis]

Considering the nature of this thread and how strong all of our opinions are, I'm going to say my peice and exit. I have no interest in arguing here. 

Alright. Here goes. 

Adolin is constantly said to be boring or simple or lacking in development, and I disagree on all counts. He's a remarkably complex and layered character. 

He puts forward a mask of continual bravado and confidence to cover an ever present insecurity. This is the root of all of his issues. He's got a reputation as a womanizer which is honestly undeserved. And it's because of this insecurity. He was the most eligible bachelor in Alethkar and actively persued even when in relationships that, due to his insecurities, his general lack of self worth and direction, he allowed to fail. We never see him treat a date he's on in any manner that is inappropriate, only inconsiderate at times. We never see, or even hear of, him so much as kissing someone other than Shallan. His relationships appear to consist of gift giving and walks. Such a cad. 

He's remarkably protective of those he cares about. After Szeth's attack he spends his time in his plate, unable to sleep out of fear for his father. He wants to shelter and protect Shallan (which due to her past she strongly objects to, which most importantly he listens to and stops, allowing her to head into danger without him or any objections). And this protective mess is one of the strongest driving factors in the murder of Sadeas. Not politics. Not power. The deaths of thousands of men that he was responsible, and more importantly, cared for. 

He fears change. Yes, he's had a comfortable life despite its hardships. It is the life he's been taught he's supposed to have though, and if you want an example of how the self indulgence and and lazy idleness could have gone worse you need look no Further than Elhokar. Despite all that, when changes comes he adapts. His father may be mad? That's alright, he trusts him. His father would rather be wrong because it would be better for Alethkar? His worldview is forced to change.

He tries very hard not to make other people deal with his problems, even as he tries to hide from them himself. Stay busy. Don't think about it. Just keep plugging along. 

When things hit the fan for others he shows up. He pays attention to the way people work and has good instincts, even if he misread them sometimes. He was right about Sadeas. He was right that Kaladin was hiding things, even if he guessed wrong at the reason, and per WoB he is able to recognize when Shallan shifts personas, even if he isn't fully aware of it. 

He's generally considerate, caring, and an all around good man. 

So to wrap up. Irresponsible. Cares deeply. Fears change. Instinctively observant...

Am I describing Adolin or Lift? 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Calderis

[The Technovore]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

(Snip)

Would that I had 20 upvotes to give for this fantastic mic-drop of a post. A thousand praises to you sir.

[Bigmikey357]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Am I describing Adolin or Lift? 

Our confirmed Edgedancer and our potential one. Up vote goes to you!

One final note specifically about the Sadeas issue. Sadeas had to die, both for narrative construction reasons i.e. he had no more purpose going forward, an active irritant when bigger concerns are looming, and for story reasons, basically he's a cremhole way past the point of redemption yet powerful enough to face no consequences even after killing a third of an ally's army. He straight up admitted to treason and l planned treason, bragged about it to a peer of the realm. Yet people want to take the moral high ground for that guy.

My question boils down to this: how strong is the Adolin bias? If Sadeas popped off that way to Jasnah and she turned his chull to smoke would she get the same kind of grief? If Sadeas happened to run into his former property and Kal casually put a Sylblade through his eye socket would we be singing his praises or condemning him? I can understand dislike, even irrational hatred for a fictional character on whatever basis anyone chooses to name.  If I'm wrong in my view of the situation I do apologize. Not trying to offend anyone on these boards.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Chaos

[Singer]

We all approach the stories and characters with our own biases, and there are as many interpretations as there are readers. Everyone's reading experience is personal, individual, and valid.

That being said, Adolin lost his mother in his youth. That is a big deal. He doesn't seem to be as "broken" in the same way the others are, but he has still been through some real pain and trauma. 

As for Sadeas, they spent the better part of WoR trying to maneuver him into the dueling ring with Adolin. Adolin definitely wanted to kill him in a duel, whatever Dalinars plans. I, for one, am going to side with Adolin on this. Feel free to disagree. Sadeas practically commits treason, definitely commits murder--bridge crews, betrayals, and assassins--and Dalinar still thinks he can find a way to work with him? Adolin made the decision to put Sadeas down after the tower and when the opportunity came he took it. Call it immoral, sure, but it's also realistic. 

The Adolin trait I like is that he is happy for the success of his friends and family. It is a trait I endeavor to cultivate in myself and I like that about him.

That is all.

[Sedside]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

He didn't just step on the scene as a good duelist. He has that natural talent but he worked hard as hell for it. And for years he was the best in the camp but duty kept him from showing it. He could have defied his restrictions like his peers but he refuses even that. 

But he did step on the scene as a good duelist. We don't see him training in the text. We already meet him as someone who loves dueling and does it well. We meet Kaladin same way - a good spearman, naturally talented but also trained hard for it. But it's not why we love Kaladin, is it? We love Kaladin because he did something he didn't want to but had to, because it was the right thing to do numerous times. We know that in the past Adolin trained hard for dueling, but it is not the thing to love him for, because we don't see his struggles for it. If we had a flashback in which Adolin was scared to Damnation of dueling, but realized his need to learn to do it and then he had been fighting his fear and pushing himself to trainings, then yes, this would definitely do for me. But there is no such a flashback. He is presented as someone who loves dueling and does it well. It is not extraordinary, I love things I do well too. What I want to find out is how to make myself do well things I don't love.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Shallan needs someone she can actually lean on when so many of her other relationships require her to be the pillar.

This is the kind of thing I dislike so much in the romantic arc discussions here. It's not an attack at you, though, just my emotions, I'm sorry. I don't get it. This is a story about strong people, superheroes who deal with their problems themselves. Why should our main female need someone to lean on? Why is a marriage considered this way - that the woman needs a man to lean on, to support her, to do what else, provide her with money, so she doesn't need to work? Love and romance are not about leaning on someone. It is about letting someone to lean on you. It is about giving something to other person because you love him/her, not taking something from him/her, this is vampirism. And why when we talk about Kaladin people say that he shouldn't be with Shallan because he wants to lean on her (I somewhat agree with this, tho), but Shallan must be with Adolin, because she wants to lean on him? I find it unfair point. For women. Like they (we) are not fully-featured without a relationship?

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Last thing. For those who hate Adolin, take a look through SA. If you remove him from the narrative do you think it makes the story stronger or weaker?

First of all, I don't hate Adolin. Second, I don't want him removed from the narrative, as well as Sadeas, storms, I love Sadeas, I've applauded to his trick with the Tower on my first read-through, he had turned this fraud around brilliantly. It doesn't mean I want Dalinar/Adolin and co to die. It means I love a good story and a good story needs good villains.

6 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

He changes people and the world by being a good guy.

How? Tell me, whom or what has he changed by being a good guy?

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Does Kal learn to trust Lighteyes without Adolin? Maybe, but the journey is harder. Does Dalinar come to the realization that he ain't crazy? Again not sure, but maybe Dalinar still doubts himself without someone to push him to examine himself.

The idea to check the visions was Renarin's. Kaladin learned to trust lighteyes under the impression of Dalinar giving up Oathbringer and then on his own. Adolin was just standing near all the time, he didn't do anything proactively. He went to prison for Kaladin only after Kaladin proved himself "worthy" three times and also after Adolin was very rude with him many times, including swinging an unprotected shardblade at him on the training grounds. This action was just his attempt to compensate Kaladin's investments into their relationship and Adolin's own bad treatment of him.

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

assuming Adolin doesn't die what would you like to see Adolin do that wouldn't cause you to drop SA

Two options: Moash #2 or meeting another woman, much simplier than Shallan, and divorcing. I have my own little ship (well, boat) here called Taralin  It would be fun, I think.

5 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Do we even know enough about his previous courtships to gauge the difference in effort, if any, he puts in his courtship with Shallan? His conversations with others certainly make it sound like he tried harder.

Yeah, we have Janala, Danlan and Malasha. Quite enough, I think, and the same pattern every time. The difference is only that Shallan is the one who wants this courtship to work out. In WoR she wanted to get close to Navani and work on Urithiru problem. In OB part 1 I'm not exactly sure, maybe "momentum" and the need to have someone to distract her from her mother issue, the investigation was a nice opportunity. Then Navani and Jasnah were pushing her, and finally her identity issues and Adolin as an anchor for her personas. She was in the driving seat all along. Even in the final marriage decision she was the one who made it, not Adolin.

5 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

He took responsibility in the first book, when he felt the need to point out his father's mistakes, even though it hurt him to do it.

It is not a responsibility to tell someone he is wrong and has to do other things. Even less it is a responsibility, when he says to his father, that he is crazy, and when his father says "ok, son, you are right, I abdicate in your favor", he replies "oh no, father, forget about your craziness, just ignore it".

5 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

But considering the state Alethkar and the world is in, do you really think they needed Adolin as king of Alethkar? That he would have been the best choice? Part of responsibility is knowing when not to take up burdens, because it's not just your life you're carrying.

Well, if Adolin is is good and nice guy, kind to everyone and so on, why do people think he would be a bad king? I actually thought on my first read-through that this is an awesome opportunity for him to finally grow, and I thought like "omg, this guy could really be a nice king". All he needed was to gather his nuts into his fist (sorry, I don't know the proper English idiom for being strong, this is just a word-by-word translation of my native language version) and do what he must. Yes it is risky and scary. So is fighting the chasmfiend alone, mounting Dreamstorm, confronting Gaz and so on. So is talking to a bunch of deserters and bandits, infiltrating Ghostbloods, stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster and so on.

5 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Adolin killed Torol because he was about to attempt bringing down Dalinar, the Kholin family and the future of humanity on Roshar.

Adolin killed Torol because he had gotten and opportunity for it. He was provoked and enraged. He wasn't rational. It wasn't like "all right, Torol is a threat, I need to kill him, it is needed to be done so I will do it". It was a pure accident, he just met him, he wasn't even searching for him. And there was noone near to stop him, like in previous books. Adolin hated Sadeas from his very first chapter in WoK. He wanted him dead and was doing shardblade-summoning gestures in his presence.

5 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Sadeas died because he was crem.

Ialai woudn't agree with you. Someone isn't crem because you think he is crem. You don't gain the licence to condemn someone to death, if you think he is crem. We can justify Sadeas's actions the same way, you know. Sadeas thought Dalinar was crem so he condemned him to death. Amaram thought Kaladin's men were crem, because they were darkeyes and who cares about darkeyes, when the world needs trained shardbearers? Clever Mr T thinks everyone is crem but him, can we let him kill everyone?

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

Anyway, this is turning into all against one again anyway. Good night.

Storms, I understand you now 

2 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

But in OB his bubble starts falling apart and trouble begins to rain on him: You wanted to keep killing Sadeas a secret? Good luck now that the entire kingdom knows about it; You think you know the real Shallan? Have fun finding out about that now that you're married to her; You thought that you could just slide by everything that's happening and live happily ever after away from it? Well too bad, face it, the world is ending, your country is falling apart and you're a central political piece. Take responsibility.

Brandon just dumped a load of problems on him and didn't resolve any. Meaning that things are looking grim for him in SA4.

I'm personally looking forward to seeing if he can keep his carefree personality while dealing with all that. For the people that want him to suffer, I think you just got what you wanted.

Yeah, very much this, have an upvote!

2 hours ago, RayW2 said:

But that's the thing. That's the reason I think he is irresponsible. Taking responsibilities means you agreeing to do your duties even if you don't like them. As long as it is your duty you must do it.

Adolin takes responsibilities he likes and refuses to take those he does not like. This is IRresponsibility. He is immature. 

Dalnar does not want to carry responsibility for the entire human population of Roshar. He does not want to be a diplomat. He does not want to sit on meetings with world leaders. But he does, because he needs to do it. This is his duty, no matter how hard it is, no matter how much he does not want to do it.

Adolin refuses to be a king, because he does not want this responsibility, because as he has said himself, he would not have enough free time for entertaining.

Dueling is not his responsibility, it is his hobby. He agrees to do something as long as he enjoys the activity, but he never goes beyond his comfort zone like, again, Dalinar. 

Courting Shallan is not...responsibility either. 

Agree with you so much either!

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

My question boils down to this: how strong is the Adolin bias? If Sadeas popped off that way to Jasnah and she turned his chull to smoke would she get the same kind of grief? If Sadeas happened to run into his former property and Kal casually put a Sylblade through his eye socket would we be singing his praises or condemning him?

I think that neither Jasnah, nor Kaladin would have done that. They would only have done that if there was an imminent life danger. Jasnah's encounter with Amaram shows that quite well. Anyway, if Kaladin really did that, I would be very much disappointed with him and with this book as well. I dislike this moment so much not because Adolin did it, but because this was just a disgraceful way to kill out a main villain. I expected him to die more... I dunno, well-played or whatsoever. If Jasnah wanted Sadeas dead she would order an assassin. Kaladin... well, he would have tried to find him on a battlefield, like Amaram, I guess. But the way Sanderson did it means that it had to be done this way. There will be consequences.

50 minutes ago, Singer said:

As for Sadeas, they spent the better part of WoR trying to maneuver him into the dueling ring with Adolin. Adolin definitely wanted to kill him in a duel, whatever Dalinars plans. I, for one, am going to side with Adolin on this. Feel free to disagree. Sadeas practically commits treason, definitely commits murder--bridge crews, betrayals, and assassins--and Dalinar still thinks he can find a way to work with him? Adolin made the decision to put Sadeas down after the tower and when the opportunity came he took it. Call it immoral, sure, but it's also realistic. 

Again, he wanted Sadeas dead from his very first chapter (WoK 12). Long before the Tower. And it is not the fact that he killed Sadead that I personally don't like. I don't like how he did it. It was a pure accident, affection, not a well-thought and considered decision, it was against his father's will, he was hiding it and lying to Shallan and so on. Also the way it was committed - kinda cruel and somewhat psychopatic. There are some interesting thoughts Dalinar brings to the table when considering this murder, like it is a good way to kill an armored soldier, but Sadeas is unarmored and unarmed, it was also in a dark corridor, something which Kaladin thinks, when protecting Elhokar. And when it finally got out everyone is OK with it. That's what I don't like, not the fact that Sadeas is dead.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Sedside
typos and grammar

[Use the Falchion]

I like Adolin because - as it's mentioned in one of this season's Writing Excuses episodes, Adolin is more of an outgrowth of the world than the story. It makes him feel real and relatable. He's also not as heavy a character as his father/wife/vitriolic best bud. On one hand, that might not make him as relatable to others (I see a lot less posts on Reddit about how relatable Adolin is vs Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar), but it rarely makes him controversial. Overall, he's a stand-up guy; but more importantly, he's a good guy. Not perfect, but definitely good. 

[Singer]

8 minutes ago, Sedside said:

And it is not the fact that he killed Sadead that I personally don't like. I don't like how he did it. It was a pure accident, affection, not a well-thought and considered decision, it was against his father's will, he was hiding it and lying to Shallan and so on. Also the way it was committed - kinda cruel and somewhat psychopatic. There are some interesting thoughts Dalinar brings to the table when considering this murder, like it is a good way to kill an armored soldier, but Sadeas is unarmored and unarmed, it was also in a dark corridor, something which Kaladin thinks, when protecting Elhokar. And when it finally got out everyone is OK with it. That's what I don't like, not the fact that Sadeas is dead.

I think most people in world are happy Sadeas is gone, but Adolin will face fall out for it. Everyone expected fall out in OB, but it didn't come yet so there is some disappointment. I understand that. 

And, hey, this will give Shallan and Adolin something to bond over. "Remember sweetie, how we both murdered in cold blood someone who certainly was a threat to society?" 

I say that jokingly, but I do see it as very similar Shallan killing her father and Adolin killing Sadeas. Both were gruesome, and unplanned, but the foreshadowing was different for each. If you think it was gross, then I agree. If you think it wasn't well foreshadowed then I'd disagree, but that is subjective. Everyone reads a little differently and pays attention to different things.

You're right that Kaladin would never do that. It certainly isn't honorable, but I still like Adolin. I'm not perfectly honorable either so I can't say as I blame him.

[Chaos]

I think you make some good points @Sedside.

25 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Storms, I understand you now 

One thing I'd just like people to keep in mind is that at least the last time there was a poll on how many people liked or disliked Adolin, there were vastly more individuals who felt positively about Adolin than negatively about him. In that data, it was about 80% who said they had positive feelings on him, 9.5% were neutral, and about 10% had negative feelings on him. I'm obviously aware that the sampling method is very much a convenience sample here with selection bias, of course! But I do think it would be safe to say that people who dislike Adolin are indeed outnumbered by quite a margin. (Please go ahead and add to the sample there, though!) 

I can totally see why it can look like people are ganging up, but I think this is more a function that there just straight up more individuals who like Adolin than actual malice involved. For example, you are perfectly entitled to write long responses as you did, Sedside, and I think that's great! But let's say if everyone who liked Adolin wrote as in-depth responses, because there would be more volume of them, it's easy to feel like you're being drowned out. At the same time if people say things respectfully, that's definitely a thing everyone should be able to do here, right? 

So again I'd like everyone to understand that I think no one wishes malice on others and people just want to share perspectives  (Please leave discussions--or the site--if you do wish malice on others for people disagreeing with you about a character, of course.)

I want everyone to feel welcome, and I totally understand it can get a bit dicey with this. I don't know if there's a real solution to this but please PM me if anyone has any concerns. I'd probably say that people who like Adolin should keep in mind that people can definitely feel singled out. Just be aware of that! Your words do matter! At the same time, my advice for people who dislike Adolin would be that there totally are people who feel similarly to you in this thread! You aren't alone! But also, I do sincerely hope that people do realize that others are sharing opinions and they aren't trying to attack others. (And we'll remove people who are attacking others.) 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

He straight up admitted to treason and l planned treason, bragged about it to a peer of the realm. Yet people want to take the moral high ground for that guy.

Because his death was not Adolin's decision to make.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Chaos
Report posts, do not engage

[Jace21]

47 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Because his death was not Adolin's decision to make.

Then whose was it? 

Elhokar's? It would have split the kingdom and started a full-blown civil war mid-desolation.

Sadeas made it clear he would do anything to gain and retain power, so reason/negotiation was also out the window.

Which leaves having him quietly removed, ideally in a way that gives leaders like Elhokar/Dalinar plausable deniability.

Mission accomplished.

To the OP, all in all I like Adolin a lot. I find that the majority of the time he acts in a far more realistic manner than other characters and seems, to me, to be trying his best even if he doesn't always succeed. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Then whose was it? 

Elhokar's? It would have split the kingdom and started a full-blown civil war mid-desolation.

Sadeas made it clear he would do anything to gain and retain power, so reason/negotiation was also out the window.

Which leaves having him quietly removed, ideally in a way that gives leaders like Elhokar/Dalinar plausable deniability.

Mission accomplished.

To the OP, all in all I like Adolin a lot. I find that the majority of the time he acts in a far more realistic manner than other characters and seems, to me, to be trying his best even if he doesn't always succeed. 

A legal authority.

If something like that doesn't exist yet, maybe it's time for a reform.

Vigilante justice whenever someone threatens Dalinar is not the solution.

[Winds Alight]

I liked Adolin from the start. Meaning, during WoK, I saw no reason to dislike him, and then he grew on me
Before I (re)joined this community I had no idea there was so much conflict revolving around him and frankly, I wouldn't have believed there is had I not seen it with my own eyes.

In every story I read or see, there are characters I like, some I like a lot, characters I feel neutral for, characters I actively dislike, some I hate deeply and usually a fery few I Would Die For And Die Internally If They Die In The Story.

Right now, SA is like this:
Would die for: Kaladin. More than any character in any story I ever knew before. The only (realistic, as in could happen) reason why I would ever drop SA would be if he died.
Like a lot: Renarin (he could make it up on top with Kaladin in later books), Jasnah, Lift, Adolin. The latter climbed up from "like" to "like a lot" during OB.
Like: Dalinar, Shallan, the whole Bridge Four, Hoid and several others, like Venli. Most of them have every potential to step up (Shallan already made it up here from "dislike" since WoK). Elhokar was on his way there. *sniff*
For the sake of this topic, I'll stop here and focus on Adolin.

I already said it before in another thread: one of the reasons why I like him is that he balances things out. Plotlines like Shallan's, Dalinar's and Kaladin's are pretty heavy and while I would read ten books solely about Kaladin in an instant, Adolin chapters and interactions with him provide me a very much appreciated "relief". Like an "emotional relief" character.
But he also acts as this for some other characters.
He helped Kaladin change his opinion about lighteyes in general by believing him and showing him support. He also provided Kaladin support during the aftermath of Kholinar, when Kal was mostly non-functional. Adolin got him out of the palace, Adolin stayed with him during the first part of their journey to Shadesmar and tried his best to keep him from dissociating. That's a hill I'm willing to die on. One of the main reasons why I like Adolin so much is because he has become quite a friend to Kaladin who really needs friends who won't look at him like some kind of deity as most of B4 does.

When Adolin killed Sadeas, I partly wanted to cheer him on because Sadeas made top of my "hate list" at that point (now it's Moash and Mr. T). Another part of me wanted to scream at him to stop because Nothing Good Can Come From This. By the end of OB, Shallan and Dalinar knew about this. Not the public. I don't know what I expect to come from this in the next book. Frankly I'd be okay if the answer was "nothing" because Palona was right: Sadeas being dead was one problem solved.

As for Adolin potentially becoming Radiant, I wouldn't mind if he did.
First, in-world it makes sense. Anyone could potentially become a Radiant. Anyone who's broken in some way, and anyone can become broken; so even if Adolin isn't yet, there's plenty of ways that could happen. Like "learning your father whom you love and admire burned down a whole city full of innocent people out of rage and killed your beloved mother in the process". I think that might count, especially as I believe that the Radiants we know best (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar) have some above-average trauma that kinda over-qualified them for the job.
If something makes sense in-world, all tropes can go to Damnation, and the "we need one token human in our group of superhumans" trope is ... not my favourite, plain and simple.
I don't expect and wish it to be easy. Why would it be easy? Sanderson is not exactly known for giving his characters an easy way out. So if Adolin becomes an Edgedancer by reviving Maya, I expect him to go through Damnation before it happening and having to work very, very hard. As most others, I wouldn't want him to just "get Maya to be alive again and bond him".
What I do believe is that Adolin As Edgedancer would be entertaining.

For now I'm going to make a stop here. There's a lot more to say about him and Shallan, but I don't care that much about Shadolin, and whether or not their relationship will last is not my main concern in the story by far. I just don't want it to take up too much time in the books. I'm not reading SA for the romance.

So. That's it.
Stormfather help me so I have the strength to don't get into arguments on this again.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Winds Alight

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

A legal authority.

If something like that doesn't exist yet, maybe it's time for a reform.

Vigilante justice whenever someone threatens Dalinar is not the solution.

Sadeas was untouchable legally. Reform at the beginning of an apocalyptic event is probably not the best time for it. I mean, did Sadeas not deserve execution for past crimes? For plotting treason? If Adolin hadn't smoked him I hope someone would have. Because this ain't a comic book where the villians get infinite chances to screw up the world. Sometimes villians need killing. 

[Toaster Retribution]

. First off, I second Chaos above. I am #supportadolin but I do not want to make anyone feel singled out. My purpose is not to attack anyone. I do want to respond to those who quoted me, so that I shall do:

@SLNC In alethi politics I would say that there is self defense. Considering that alethi politics is tightly related to war and killing, and considering that Sadeas is a person who has killed thousands to get his way before, I would say that it is viable to speak of self defense in this case. And when Adolin killed him, he never had one thought about improving Dalinars political position. 

@insert_anagram_here I apologize. I never meant to tell you what you could and could not like. I wanted to explain why I think Adolin is an inspirational and important character despite seeming like a plain figure. 

@Sedside Adolin helped change Kaladins perception on lighteyes because he was a good person. He has helped Shallan by being a good person as well.

And the Sadeas thing was not something that he would have done if Sadeas hadn’t provoked him by threatening his family. If Sadeas had said ”what up Adolin, nice tower you found” or something, and then walked off, Adolin wouldn’t have done what he did. He hates Sadeas for a reason, after all. He knows what an eel he is, and what a threat he is to the Dalinar, and the other members of the Kholin family. 

[insert_anagram_here]

50 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@insert_anagram_here I apologize. I never meant to tell you what you could and could not like. I wanted to explain why I think Adolin is an inspirational and important character despite seeming like a plain figure.

Np and thank you. Please don't worry about it.

I still think that Sadeas should’ve had some way to defend himself. Even executions are preceded of a trial. If tribunal trials aren’t an Alethi thing, he at least had a right to a duel or a fair fight. Killing an unarmed man surely isn’t ‘in self-defence’. Deserving it or not, killing him while unarmed without a trial, is unlawful, dishonorable and unethical. Even if Dalinar's code isn't taken into consideration. That’s my take of it.

[NoiseSpren]

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

Because I don't even believe him to be such a "good guy".

He isn't. And he is.

 

In my country (Czech Rep.) history, we have a king. He is the King of our history. We all love him. He seeked peace, was elected as the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, built first university in Middle Europe. He was pious and our nation had golden age then.

And when he was young he raided northern Italy. When he became king he had hundreds of Jews mercilessly slaughtered to get money. Then he used the bloody money to improve things he is now praised for.

He was like Adolin: very good guy. With dark side. Not perfect, but helpful. And bad in some way.

Edited February 16, 2019 by NoiseSpren

[Embrisk]

18 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Adolin is not a fully formed character yet, and it's disingenuous to suggest that he hasn't changed when his whole arc in Oathbringer was about him making the first steps to growing and changing. 

Oh, I definitely agree. He's just doing his best, and I was Soooo happy when he killed Sadeas. I never expected it, because I expected Sadeas to just get away with whatever he wants.

[Bigmikey357]

Oh, point of fact. Sadeas was bonded to Oathbringer the Shardblade at the time of his death. He wasn't unarmed.