Adolin - Dancing on the Edge of being an Edgedancer

[Ixthos]

Let it be known that Adolin will be the ultimate Edgedancer, by virtue of not being an Edgedancer. Edgedancers can stand on the finest rope, ride the thinnest cord, and metaphorically straddle the various levels and groups of society. It is only fitting then, that Adolin would fulfil this same function within the Knights, being both Knight Radiant and a normal man, an Edgedancer between Edgedancer and anathema to a spren.

 

Being fully serious now, I was actually also being serious above. Adolin will probably not swear any Oaths, for Maya can't receive them and no other spren will accept him, with him being bonded to a corpse. Maya will become more complete, but never a fully intact Radiant spren again, though more fully grounded in her mind, and more fully bonded to Adolin. He will have access to surges, but only through Maya as a blade - rather than the human using the surges, it will be the blade, so long as he touches her. She will come faster than she currently does, but never fully instantly. He will have plate, but only the plate he currently owns, and never be able to summon plate, as Maya and he cannot without Oaths being sworn. She will become more like a living spren in the cognitive realm, but never fully alive again. He will fill in her missing parts, but she will never fill any cracks in him. They will be part of one another, as any Knight and spren are part of each other, but never the same way as a Knight. He will be admired by spren for reviving her after a fashion (... Adolin and fashion ...) but also despised as anyone bonded to a dead blade would be.

 

Basically, this theory is that Adolin will be - ironically - the best example of an Edgedancer, but without being an Edgedancer, without armour his access to surges could penetrate, and only having surges when touching Maya, with them only working through her as well, healing or decreasing friction or increasing it with what touches her.

[Gasper]

I can see it. It is a very Brandon thing to do. 

[Guest]

That will be the moment, where I put these books down for good.

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Let it be known that Adolin will be the ultimate Edgedancer, by virtue of not being an Edgedancer. Edgedancers can stand on the finest rope, ride the thinnest cord, and metaphorically straddle the various levels and groups of society. It is only fitting then, that Adolin would fulfil this same function within the Knights, being both Knight Radiant and a normal man, an Edgedancer between Edgedancer and anathema to a spren.

 

Being fully serious now, I was actually also being serious above. Adolin will probably not swear any Oaths, for Maya can't receive them and no other spren will accept him, with him being bonded to a corpse. Maya will become more complete, but never a fully intact Radiant spren again, though more fully grounded in her mind, and more fully bonded to Adolin. He will have access to surges, but only through Maya as a blade - rather than the human using the surges, it will be the blade, so long as he touches her. She will come faster than she currently does, but never fully instantly. He will have plate, but only the plate he currently owns, and never be able to summon plate, as Maya and he cannot without Oaths being sworn. She will become more like a living spren in the cognitive realm, but never fully alive again. He will fill in her missing parts, but she will never fill any cracks in him. They will be part of one another, as any Knight and spren are part of each other, but never the same way as a Knight. He will be admired by spren for reviving her after a fashion (... Adolin and fashion ...) but also despised as anyone bonded to a dead blade would be.

 

Basically, this theory is that Adolin will be - ironically - the best example of an Edgedancer, but without being an Edgedancer, without armour his access to surges could penetrate, and only having surges when touching Maya, with them only working through her as well, healing or decreasing friction or increasing it with what touches her.

Great theory and good luck! I have my own I cling to but I am sure whatever Brandon works out, it will be great! 

[Bigmikey357]

So Maya becomes the Edgedancer Honorblade and Adolin can still provide that human perspective when all around him is Radiant. I actually kinda like that, at least for the front 5 SA. Maybe Addie is due for a visit to the Valley eventually, maybe have a convo with NW and Culti on Maya's behalf.

[CrazyRioter]

I personally think it is possible to revive a dead spren by saying the oaths and living them, it's just that  it takes more effort and maybe special circumstances to get it to work.

Your theory is absolutely interesting though and I can see you've put a lot of thought into it.

I'm sure whatever Brandon comes up with it's gonna be Awesome.

[galendo]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

That will be the moment, where I put these books down for good.

May I ask why?  It actually sounds like it could provide some interesting arcs/interactions, depending on how it was handled.  The "not quite a Radiant, not quite a normal human" is a story line that Adolin could conceivably walk which no other character is currently suited for.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

May I ask why?  It actually sounds like it could provide some interesting arcs/interactions, depending on how it was handled.  The "not quite a Radiant, not quite a normal human" is a story line that Adolin could conceivably walk which no other character is currently suited for.

Of course you may.

I despise Adolin. I never enjoyed reading him. For me, he represents everything wrong with the Stormlight Archive right now. In a cast of diverse and interesting characters, he's the most generic and boring. He drags down one of my favorites - Shallan, by the simple fact, that he reduces her personality issues into something seemingly easily fixed through a shallow and basic relationship, that leaves a lot to be desired.

He already is the shining golden boy, whose only blemish of killing Sadeas got neatly polished away. Putting him onto another special pedestal is not interesting for me and least of all enjoyable. Up until now, the other parts of the books made up for him, if this happens I'm quite sure, that this will no longer be the case.

[galendo]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Of course you may.

I despise Adolin. I never enjoyed reading him. For me, he represents everything wrong with the Stormlight Archive right now. In a cast of diverse and interesting characters, he's the most generic and boring. He drags down one of my favorites - Shallan, by the simple fact, that he reduces her personality issues into something seemingly easily fixed through a shallow and basic relationship, that leaves a lot to be desired.

He already is the shining golden boy, whose only blemish of killing Sadeas got neatly polished away. Putting him onto another special pedestal is not interesting for me and least of all enjoyable. Up until now, the other parts of the books made up for him, if this happens I'm quite sure, that this will no longer be the case.

I see where you're coming from, actually.  Adolin was my least favorite of the main four in the first book, and Shallan my second-favorite.  I think that if I thought that Adolin was the thing dragging down Shallan, I'd probably agree with you.  I just happen to believe that Shallan, as a character, has other issues; and that her relationship with Adolin is actually one of the key things holding her character together.

I do agree that having Adolin and House Kholin escape any and all consequences for Sadeas' murder was one of the great disappointments of Oathbringer.  But if you don't like him being too perfect, I'd think that having him as a crippled Radiant might be preferable than having him as a full Radiant.

[CrazyRioter]

I don't see Adolin as reducing Shallan's issues to something 'easy'. He will be a support for her, but that's how a good relationship works. She will still have a lot of work to put in to get better. I'd rather see Shallan with somebody who helps her deal with her issues, rather than somebody like Kaladin who I feel would exacerbate them. (This is not a diss on Kaladin, I love him, but he and Shallan would be terrible for each other.)

[Winds Alight]

This has been covered in a lot of threads already, but I'm still all for it.

(Thank Honor I don't hate anyone strongly enough to put down the best books I ever read because of a single character who's not even among the main protagonists. Wow.)

[Bigmikey357]

@SLNC of course you are entitled to your opinion of Adolin, we all like different things. However, in an effort to keep you reading SA I suggest you try to look at his character in a different way, change the perspective as it were. Looking at how others see him may help.

I see Adolin as The Glue Guy on Team Honor. He has some issues of his own and is by no means perfect but without his actions the squad falls to pieces. Our Radiants are extraordinary people but let's face it, they are, one and all, broken. That's a major theme in these books. Adolin is a normal dude, or at least as normal as someone 3rd in line to be a king can be.

He picks up the broken ones when they're down so that they can be awesome later. He's the only dude that can keep Dalinar from bulldozing his allies. He has had success keeping Shallan's fractured soul from flying apart. He changes Kaladin's preconceived notions of lighteyes and keeps dude from depression overload. He provides a safe space for Renarin so that he can walk with confidence later.  And he took out Sadeas, a problematic act but better than the alternative.

You may not like Adolin, and like I said it's your right. Without him though, you get a poorer story product. That's my sincere belief for what its worth.

[CrazyRioter]

I think Adolin is a more complex character than some people give him credit for and I expect book 4 to bring his complexities and hidden issues to the forefront, we see a bit of that in his PoVs in Shadesmar, with his worries about being useless, an that he was only ever useful because of his Shards, and not in his own right, and I expect finding out what really happened to his mom will put further strain on him, plus the fallout from it becoming publicly known that he murdered Sadeas.

I see lots of opportunities for growth with Adolin, as he revaluates his relationship with his father, and with his society, and I think that Maya will play a role in that, because you don't tease something like that like what happened at the end of Oathbringer and then do nothing with it. It'd be bad writing.

Brandon likes to put his characters through the wringer and have them come out stronger (if they survive), and that's what I see happening with Adolin.

[Sedside]

4 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't see Adolin as reducing Shallan's issues to something 'easy'. He will be a support for her, but that's how a good relationship works. She will still have a lot of work to put in to get better. I'd rather see Shallan with somebody who helps her deal with her issues, rather than somebody like Kaladin who I feel would exacerbate them. (This is not a diss on Kaladin, I love him, but he and Shallan would be terrible for each other.)

I really wonder, why people think Adolin reduces her issues? Because she said "he knows me" and he said "I want real you"? And why people say Kaladin is terrible for her? Because, again, she said, that he encourages her to hide herself away? Doesn't matter, that there are plenty of quotes, that conversations with Kaladin make her excited, he can wordplay, he has empathy, and so on, whereas for Adolin she created a mask and can't even mock him, though this is something she loves.

3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

He has had success keeping Shallan's fractured soul from flying apart. He changes Kaladin's preconceived notions of lighteyes and keeps dude from depression overload. He provides a safe space for Renarin so that he can walk with confidence later.  And he took out Sadeas, a problematic act but better than the alternative.

I already said about Shallan's fractured soul above, but I'll also note that Radiant was created under Adolin's direct influence. She is also much less herself and less whole with him, because she must behave as a perfect Vorin bride/wife, and when he sees her alter egos he says something is wrong.

His help with Kaladin's lighteyes issues? Mmmm, where? When he condescended to him after Kaladin saved his life 2 times and saved him from being crippled, humiliated and losing all House Kholin shards joining a fight with 6 shardbearers? Kaladin revised his issues under the influence of Dalinar and by himself with his 3rd Ideal. Adolin has nothing to do with it. Depression - well, Adolin acts nice in Shadesmar, yes. But I don't find it somewhat extraordinary. He is useless otherwise (his words), so he provides the moral support. And Kaladin, again, struggles with his depression mostly by himself.

Renarin? I don't know, he also did a lot by himself, he joined B4 and did a good job of fitting in. Also I mostly see Renarin providing good advices and support for Adolin now, when I'm focused on Adolin's PoVs for my analysis of his character, and I'm surprised by that. Besides, Renarin is his brother, it's quite normal to support your brother, I think.

Regarding Sadeas - this is one of my least favorite episodes in SA. Sadeas was a great villain, and I really feel sorry for him dying in such a disgraceful way. Speaking with someone, who wants you dead desperately since the very beginning and can barely hold himself, in a dark corridor without guards and provoking him? And Adolin? It didn't look like he planned it or something. Pure affection - came, saw, got enraged, murdered.

[Winds Alight]

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His help with Kaladin's lighteyes issues? Mmmm, where? When he condescended to him after Kaladin saved his life 2 times and saved him from being crippled, humiliated and losing all House Kholin shards joining a fight with 6 shardbearers? Kaladin revised his issues under the influence of Dalinar and by himself with his 3rd Ideal. Adolin has nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry, but no.
The duel was a huge turning point in their relationship. When was Adolin ever condescending after that? (Aside from the fact that I can't really remember Adolin being condescending towards Kaladin much before. He didn't like him, but he always acknowledged his fighting skills and usefulness.)
He was grateful and impressed enough with what Kaladin did in the arena that he locked himself in prison for two weeks (or however long they were in there) and remember, Adolin was the first lighteyed person to fully believe Kaladin about Amaram and told him so. Dalinar took Kaladin's claims seriously and investigated, yes, but Adolin was the first one to just say "I believe you". That meant a lot to Kaladin, who at that point still believed Dalinar had dismissed all accusations against Amaram.
 

27 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Renarin? I don't know, he also did a lot by himself, he joined B4 and did a good job of fitting in. Also I mostly see Renarin providing good advices and support for Adolin now, when I'm focused on Adolin's PoVs for my analysis of his character, and I'm surprised by that. Besides, Renarin is his brother, it's quite normal to support your brother, I think.

Honestly Renarin and Adolin have the most beautiful brother dynamic I ever read about in a book. They trust each other 100% and it's fairly obvious that Adolin has always, ever since Renarin was born did everything to protect his little brother.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Winds Alight

[+Croaker's Apprentice]

It's hard in any fantasy story to keep one of your central characters a Muggle when everyone else are wizards/ werewolves/ vampires etc.

Buffy (the TV show) couldn't do it, and neither could Brandon in the Mistborn series (Elend, of course).

So I 100% expect Adolin to revive Maya and become a Knight Radiant. 

[Sedside]

22 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

I'm sorry, but no.

It's my opinion, what do you say "no" to?

22 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

The duel was a huge turning point in their relationship. When was Adolin ever condescending after that? (Aside from the fact that I can't really remember Adolin being condescending towards Kaladin much before. He didn't like him, but he always acknowledged his fighting skills and usefulness.)

He only started to acknowledge his skills after their encounter with Szeth. And he was doing it very reluctantly. Prior to that he denied him almost at their every meeting, swung an unprotected shardblade at him, and kicked him wearing shardplate. After meeting with Szeth he still was not very fond of Kaladin and provoked him to mount Dreamstorm. The actual warming-up only happened somewhat after Shallan arrived, Adolin and Kaladin had a conversation at training grounds, then menagerie ride, when he said that Shallan can trust him, because he saved his life 2 times. All of this dynamics was due to Kaladin's efforts, not to Adolin's. Kaladin proved himself "worthy" to Adolin, and so Adolin started treating him neutral, and after a duel, which was also a very very huge investment from Kaladin, he started treating him as a friend. Spending time in prison was nice, but I don't think it can be compared to what Kaladin did for Adolin, so it can not balance the investments. Kaladin risked his life, and Adolin just willingly limited his freedom, fully aware that he can go out anytime with no harm, he won't be executed, he won't be demoted, no consequences. And he was still having bath, chatting via spanreed with Shallan and stuff.

34 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Adolin was the first lighteyed person to fully believe Kaladin about Amaram and told him so. Dalinar took Kaladin's claims seriously and investigated, yes, but Adolin was the first one to just say "I believe you". That meant a lot to Kaladin, who at that point still believed Dalinar had dismissed all accusations against Amaram.

That's nice, he believed Kaladin, really nice, but again, I don't think it is Adolin's merit. Kaladin did much more to earn his appreciation, than Adolin did for Kaladin.

35 minutes ago, Winds Alight said:

Honestly Renarin and Adolin have the most beautiful brother dynamic I ever read about in a book. They trust each other 100% and it's fairly obvious that Adolin has always, ever since Renarin was born did everything to protect his little brother.

Maybe. I'm not very interested in Renarin/Adolin relationship, I like Renarin on his own. I just said that I was impressed by how wise and supportive he is to Adolin, it was something I didn't notice on my first read-through.

I actually feel like SLNC is those discussions about Adolin. He already has everything with absolutely no effort - he's got appearance, wealth, fame, shards, beautiful hair, now also a wife, he has the majority of readers' adoration and now let's give him radiance, just because he is so adorable, who could deny him? (c) Dalinar

[Calderis]

Can we not turn another thread into a storming Adolin war for once?

Seriously... This conversation has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs proposal. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Calderis

[Quantus]

The idea of a sort of Half-Radiant could be really interesting.  If that were to happen, Im curious how the Surges would manifest.  Would they be able to use the full spectrum, or be more restricted, more like the way Fabrails are?  Would it be possible for any Deadeye, or only for those Orders that gave access to Regrowth?  Would the Oaths be entirely unnecessary, or still required but simply offer less practical rewards in return? 

[Mage of Lirigon]

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

Putting him onto another special pedestal is not interesting for me and least of all enjoyable. Up until now, the other parts of the books made up for him, if this happens I'm quite sure, that this will no longer be the case.

How is making him a watered down Radiant putting him on a special pedastal?

 

2 hours ago, Sedside said:

I really wonder, why people think Adolin reduces her issues? Because she said "he knows me" and he said "I want real you"? 

Adolin is willing to make the effort to support her.

 

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I already said about Shallan's fractured soul above, but I'll also note that Radiant was created under Adolin's direct influence. 

Calling it Adolin's direct influence is a little much. Sure, Adolin was the catalyst, but looking at Shallan's character and her hangups with her Shardblade, Radiant was inevitable.

 

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And why people say Kaladin is terrible for her? 

Because Kaladin is really not in the right headspace for a relationship right now. They would just make each other's problems worse. There's also the small matter of him killing her beloved big brother.

 

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Regarding Sadeas - this is one of my least favorite episodes in SA. Sadeas was a great villain, and I really feel sorry for him dying in such a disgraceful way.

I feel the opposite about this. Sadeas was crem, and he died the way crem like him should die, alone and unremarked.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Guest]

7 hours ago, galendo said:

But if you don't like him being too perfect, I'd think that having him as a crippled Radiant might be preferable than having him as a full Radiant.

Not having him be a Radiant at all would be preferable. Let him revive Maya, if you must, but I really don't like the idea of Adolin being a Radiant. In my eyes, he isn't even capable of holding serious convictions or beliefs. Not having him to have to swear the Oaths, but get some kind of Surgebinding anyway would be an extreme cop-out and, frankly, fan service.

10 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

How is making him a watered down Radiant putting him on a special pedastal?

Not having him to swear the Oaths and giving him Surges anyway would. It is literally what special means, as in distinguished by an unusual quality.

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

He picks up the broken ones when they're down so that they can be awesome later. He's the only dude that can keep Dalinar from bulldozing his allies. He has had success keeping Shallan's fractured soul from flying apart. He changes Kaladin's preconceived notions of lighteyes and keeps dude from depression overload. He provides a safe space for Renarin so that he can walk with confidence later.  And he took out Sadeas, a problematic act but better than the alternative.

I've been trying to reconcile myself with Adolin for the past year and a few months and I just can't.

@Sedside has already mentioned a lot of the reasons why, so I won't reiterate, except, that I don't think Kaladin lost his notions about lighteyes because of Adolin, that was Dalinar at the end of WoK, Elhokar at the end of WoR and Shallan in the chasms. Also, I believe, that Kaladin clawed his way out of the depressive hole during OB by himself. Adolin worried about him, but he didn't do anything actively to help except to tell him to "keep walking", which honestly is the same as a non-depressed being, who doesn't understand depression to hang on and try to think happy thoughts.

Quote

I actually feel like SLNC is those discussions about Adolin. He already has everything with absolutely no effort - he's got appearance, wealth, fame, shards, beautiful hair, now also a wife, he has the majority of readers' adoration and now let's give him radiance, just because he is so adorable, who could deny him?

Exactly, I just can't stand it. I've been trying, but I can't.

Edited February 14, 2019 by SLNC

[Sedside]

24 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Adolin is willing to make the effort to support her.

And Kaladin doesn't? Elhokar was willing to make the effort to be a good king, does it make him a good king?

24 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Calling it Adolin's direct influence is a little much. Sure, Adolin was the catalyst, but looking at Shallan's character and her hangups with her Shardblade, Radiant was inevitable.

Yeah, perhaps she was, but Adolin didn't help her hold Radiant from appearing, he made this process go faster. So how does Adolin help Shallan keep herself whole?

24 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Because Kaladin is really not in the right headspace for a relationship right now. They would just make each other's problems worse. There's also the small matter of him killing her beloved big brother.

And Shallan is in a good headspace for a relationship? I also don't think that it would make each other problems worse, he definitely thinks she pushes his darkness away. Though I agree, that they shouldn't be together yet, because noone has to rely on relationships for solving their problems. I just don't understand, why people say, that Kaladin shouldn't be with Shallan, because he has to solve his mental problems first, but the same people state that it is good for Shallan to marry Adolin, because he is helping her solve her mental problems. Double standarts.

A small matter of her beloved big brother indeed remains, but we don't have any clue of what Shallan thinks about it, because it is buried deeply in the back of her mind. But I agree, it must be addressed, along with the whole matter of her feelings to Kaladin. OB is a book where all the possible interaction between Shallan and Kaladin is forced to minimum, we don't see Kaladin's PoVs in 2nd part, no dialogues, no Thaylen flight, and when we finally see one big enough private conversation between them, they are both in their worse mental states like ever, it can't be a coincidence.

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Adolin worried about him, but he didn't do anything actively to help except to tell him to "keep walking", which honestly is the same as a non-depressed being, who doesn't understand depression to hang on and try to think happy thoughts.

Well, to Adolin's credit here, he did keep him involved into conversation on purpose, I just don't think it is something incredible.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Sedside
fixed a typo

[Mage of Lirigon]

43 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Not having him to swear the Oaths and giving him Surges anyway would. It is literally what special means, as in distinguished by an unusual quality.

His Surges would be weaker than normal though?

 

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Also, I believe, that Kaladin clawed his way out of the depressive hole during OB by himself. Adolin worried about him, but he didn't do anything actively to help except to tell him to "keep walking", which honestly is the same as a non-depressed being, who doesn't understand depression to hang on and try to think happy thoughts.

He did a little more than that. He kept an eye on him and tried to keep him out of his own head a bit. Small stuff, but still something.
 

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that I don't think Kaladin lost his notions about lighteyes because of Adolin, that was Dalinar at the end of WoK, Elhokar at the end of WoR and Shallan in the chasms.

I do think Adolin's believing him about Amaram played a role as well, though not as big as Dalinar did, admittedly.

 

Quote

Exactly, I just can't stand it. I've been trying, but I can't.

This argument never makes any sense to me. Certainly Adolin has been born with great advantages, but his life has hardly been perfect. Plus, much of Adolin's arc has been about him coming to term with his privilege as well and trying to be a better person. It's not as dramatic as what Kaladin and Shallan have gone through, but that gives it a flavour all it's own.

 

28 minutes ago, Sedside said:

And Kaladin doesn't? Elhokar was willing to make the effort to be a good king, does it make him a good king?

Kaladin would be willing, but his own hangups would prevent him from doing so.

 

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Yeah, perhaps she was, but Adolin didn't help her hold Radiant from appearing, he made this process go faster. So how does Adolin help Shallan keep herself whole?

Never said he did. What I think is that he's willing to support her.

 

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And Shallan is in a good headspace for a relationship?

I honestly don't think she is. But she chose to be in one. Perhaps it was a mistake, but that something she needs to work out on her own.

 

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I also don't think that it would make each other problems worse, he definitely thinks she pushes his darkness away.

... That's really not helpful to Kaladin, though?

Edited February 14, 2019 by Mage of Lirigon

[Sedside]

25 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

This argument never makes any sense to me. Certainly Adolin has been born with great advantages, but his life has hardly been perfect. Plus, much of Adolin's arc has been about him coming to term with his privilege as well and trying to be a better person.

This argument never makes any sense to me too. It doesn't matter, was his life perfect or not. He had problems in his life, not so dramatic as Adolin supporters like to state when trying to prove his "brokenness" be enough to bond Maya, but yes, he had problems. So what? What did he do? What did he accomplish? What hard decisions did he make? What struggles did he have? How is he trying to be a better person? Why would you want to take a pattern by him? Or tell your children to do it?

@Mage of Lirigon, I would be glad to continue the triangle discussion, I love it, but I don't want to offtop more here.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Sedside

[NoiseSpren]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I feel the opposite about this. Sadeas was crem, and he died the way crem like him should die, alone and unremarked.

No. Sadeas was great bad guy. And he died alone, in desperation and without glory. Great end for villian. I like it. He deserved it because of being such a good villian.