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Nightblood's Inception - A Cosmere Theory


Blightsong

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Introduction

Many moons have passed since Sanderson turned his back on these forums and left us hollow, in darkness. A drought of Nalthis material like a shadow across this community. Gone are dreams of a colorful world, dreams of light. Left to the grey of Mistborn books after Stromlight books, many have given up hope of even an essay. I had all but forgotten the vibrant view of Vivenna's likeness on that most sacred of covers or the sharp bite of Lightsong's colorful wit. That is until I had (and shared) the ideas that became this theory and just had to do a reread!

I've shared these ideas before, but after the Skyward tour I thought it deserved a bit more fleshing out. Thematic, frivolous intro aside, I hope you guys enjoy the theory!

Sapient Objects and the Royal Locks

Since the first days of Warbreaker's release there has been rampant speculation about Nightblood and the mystery surrounding his creation. From Hemalurgy to Shardic interference, I've seen many theorized causes for Nightbloods nature but none I'd readily subscribe to. After thinking about it long enough I've come up with my own explanation for at least some of his oddities; I believe that the act of creating a sapient awakening allowed for Nightblood to inherit a Divine Breath via the same realmatic mechanics surrounding the Royal Locks. While this seemed a little far fetched when I first proposed the idea, I believe recent WoB as well as themes within the book point to this theory being well within the realm of possibility.

There are more than a few things in Warbreaker that lead me to this conclusion, but lets start off with what solidified this theory in my mind. Read the below WoBs:

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DrogaKrolow

Sentient machines, artificial intelligence. Would they be able to use Investiture? Or not? How would that work?

Brandon Sanderson

So, define "use Investiture". Like, there's a lot of different ways to quote-unquote use Investiture.

DrogaKrolow

OK, I don't mean the medallions but like if I go and peek into the Spiritual Realm and I look at the machine, do I see Investiture inside it? The Connections to the Shards and so on?

Brandon Sanderson

Chances are good that you will. But I have to add a big asterisk to that, it's gonna depend on so many factors. But consciousness in the cosmere is directly tied to  Investiture. And creating a machine in many ways cosmerelogically is not that different from creating a child.

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Blightsong [PENDING REVIEW]

You've said that, AI in the Cosmere, creating one is kind of like having a child realmatically. Would that extend to most sapient creations?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Blightsong [PENDING REVIEW]

So could a created spren from a Returned inherit Royal Locks? Within a reasonable possibility?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

*ahhing in a very curious manner* You could make this happen, but I don't think it would happen naturally.

Quote

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

How could the endowment of a Divine Breath from Shashara to Nightblood work in my mind? Let's start off with what we know about the Royal Locks. Vo is the very first example we have of someone who successfully created offspring as a Returned. The mysterious method that he used to accomplish this lead to the descendants of Vo having a piece of a divine breath within them, allowing for passive powers similar to (but weaker than) a Returned's. The second example we see in the books of something similar is the method the ruling priests of Hallendren used to create new God Kings, which may or may not be the same method used by Vo. Not only is this example important because of who must have been the one to teach the priests this method (Vasher), it also reveals that a Divine Breath can be passed down in a manner similar to the Royal Locks.

The Creation of Type IV Entities

Now that I've laid down the background information let's go over what we actually know about Type IV Biochromatic entities. First off, it is relevant to remember that it seems as if Nalthian Shardblades can be created without the object gaining sapience and becoming a Type IV. Secondly, here is Vasher's description of the process used to create Nightblood as well as some important context:

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That was the great crux of the problem, the issue that had dominated most of Vasher’s life. A thousand Breaths. That was what it took to Awaken an object of steel and give it sentience. Even Shashara hadn’t fully understood the process, though she had first devised it. It took a person who had reached the Ninth Heightening to Awaken stone or steel. Even then, this process shouldn’t have worked. It should have created an Awakened object with no more of a mind than the tassels on his cloak. Nightblood should not be alive. And yet he was.

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Kurkistan

So is that the same thing with Commands, are there like ideals that are Commands?

Brandon Sanderson

This is more of a-- For you to interface with the magic, you need to be able to comprehend it. And so forming a Command-- The same thing happens in Elantris, you know they don't accidentally draw runes, right? The intention is part of interfacing with the magic. So it's like your mind reaching into the Spiritual Realm and you have to like conceive something.

Reading that first in-book quote makes red lights go off in my head; we know that intention is very important to awakening, so how could Vasher and Vivenna have created Nightblood while not understanding how their own process worked? Based on Vasher's description, Nightblood should have been something like the awakened sword we see Vivenna using throughout Oathbringer. In fact, I believe that is exactly should have happened (if indeed the method used to create this sword is the same) and that there was another entity guiding this process. One with significant control over Divine Breath and who gets endowed with them. Read the below WoB:

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OrangeJedi [PENDING REVIEW]

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi [PENDING REVIEW]

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would say, there is something special.

For me to explain this, lets go back to the topic of Godkings and their Divine Breaths. As it's described by Brandon in the annotations, the process used to achieve this does not always work; Godkings must sometimes be found in the form of an infant Returned. This, combined with the below Arcanum passage, leads me to believe that Endowment has the power to control when a Divine Breath is passed down after someone uses this process.

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How, then, is a practitioner of AonDor Initiated? It does not appear to be tied to family descent, as one finds on Scadrial, nor is it a specific Shard’s Decision, as on Nalthis.

This would neatly explain why Nightblood's creation was a mystery to the two scholars that created him and why, unlike almost every other magical process in the Cosmere if you know what you're doing, creating an offspring with a Divine Breath is unreliable.

Nightblood's Powers - Aside

As an aside, the other main thing that convinces me of this theory is Nightblood's effects themselves. He seems to very obviously possess properties of a Returned, from Vasher's direct mention that Nightblood's consumption of breath is like that of a returned, to him having mind controling abilities like what we see from Vasher with animals and children, to being able to manipulate his physical form, it just seems like this would fit the narrative in a smooth way.

Conclusion

I've come to like this theory more and more, the idea that Shashara could have passed on a key to Initiation to Nightblood simply by designing and creating him is something so wholly Nalthis. Im curious to see what you all have to say. Are there any holes in this theory? Points of disagreement? Let me know down below and thanks for the read!

Edited by Blightsong
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Nice. I like it... But I also don't think it explains Nightblood. At least not completely. 

Firstly, I don't think the passing of a partial Divine Breath requires Endowments direct involvement. If it did, it would seem like everyone with the royal locks throughout history would also require that direct involvement of Endowment... 

I can buy that a type IV would get an extra oomph when created by a returned from being granted a partial Divine Breath, just like any child they had... But I think a failure to pass that on would be the same as a failure to have a living child... It wouldn't be a type IV. 

As to the powers... I can see Nightblood's emotional effects being a twisted version of the innate trust that animals ad children have for returned... But it's definitely been twisted. 

As to this... 

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

to being able to manipulate his physical form

I'm not aware of this happening? 

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

from Vasher's direct mention that Nightblood's consumption of breath is like that of a returned

The consumption, yes... But the manner of acquisition, not at all. 

Nightblood outright steals. He reduces matter to its base Investiture and consumes it... He's absolutely destructive. Which is why I think that this... 

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Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

Has been true since the very beginning. 

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Imo Nightblood is essentially one extremely powerful investiture recycling machine.

WoB states that it is "leaky". Warbreaker Annotations state that the black smoke is corrupted breadths.

Essentially, every time Nightblood is drawn, it starts pulling in whatever investiture it can. This makes it more and more invested. But Nightblood is also constantly leaking that investiture. So theoretically, if you leave Nightblood drawn with no one holding it, and leave it there for a long while, eventually, it will be completely depleted. In its normal use, the rate of investiture consumption is much higher, making it more and more invested the more it is used. The "corruption" seems to be it breaking down all investiture into some base form when it consumes it.

I don't think it's a returned though. The returned are just cognitive shadows really. But to make a cognitive shadow, you have to be an actual living being first.

If anything, think of Nightblood as an inverse shardblade. A Shardblade is a sentient being first (the spren), and comes into the physical as coalescing white mist. Nightblood on the other hand, was a physical object first, got invested, and then became sentient. He also leaks black smoke.

Fun fact: Nightblood is not Nightblood's original name.

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Nightblood, however, dwells quite heavily on the past. Though in some ways his mind is very capable, he has the quirk of being an Awakened object. The first hours of his life—during which time he met Shashara, Denth, and Vasher—imprinted heavily on him. It’s like . . . a part of his mind is hard forged in that moment with read-only memory that cannot be changed. Much of him can learn and grow, despite what Vasher says, but he cannot overwrite those initial concepts, states, and understandings that were burned into him during his birth. Shashara was alive then, so he will always think of her as alive, even if thousands of years have passed. Denth will always be pleased with him. Vasher will always be friends with the other two. Those things were some of Nightblood’s first impressions.

This very explicitly states he's truly an awakened object. Moreover, Nightblood's interpretation of "Destroy Evil" probably comes from what he saw here.

Edited by TheFoxQR
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I like the thought that Endowment had a hand in making Nightblood.  At first it seems weird that a Shard would create something like this but then she kind of gave him the ability to "endow" himself with more power.  It also makes me wonder if this is why she is not afraid of Odium.  She created Nightblood as a tool to somehow stop him.

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26 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

I don't think it's a returned though. The returned are just cognitive shadows really. But to make a cognitive shadow, you have to be an actual living being first.

If anything, think of Nightblood as an inverse shardblade. A Shardblade is a sentient being first (the spren), and comes into the physical as coalescing white mist. Nightblood on the other hand, was a physical object first, got invested, and then became sentient. He also leaks black smoke.

This very explicitly states he's truly an awakened object. Moreover, Nightblood's interpretation of "Destroy Evil" probably comes from what he saw here.

The OP was claiming that Nightblood inherited a Divine Breath, not that he is returned.

So while you are correct that he is an awakened object and not a cognitive shadow, therefore not a Returned, the OP's idea is still possible.

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1 minute ago, Jace21 said:

The OP was claiming that Nightblood inherited a Divine Breath, not that he is returned.

So while you are correct that he is an awakened object and not a cognitive shadow, therefore not a Returned, the OP's idea is still possible.

Fair. I wasn't sure exactly what OP was talking about. Now I am.

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On 2/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Calderis said:

Nice. I like it... But I also don't think it explains Nightblood. At least not completely. 

Firstly, I don't think the passing of a partial Divine Breath requires Endowments direct involvement. If it did, it would seem like everyone with the royal locks throughout history would also require that direct involvement of Endowment... 

How many people are there with Royal Locks throughout history? Its not like they're born every day, Endowment's will being directly involved would be feasible even if she wasnt nearly omnipotent and omnipresent.

On 2/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Calderis said:

I can buy that a type IV would get an extra oomph when created by a returned from being granted a partial Divine Breath, just like any child they had... But I think a failure to pass that on would be the same as a failure to have a living child... It wouldn't be a type IV. 

I agree. I just dont think Nalthian shardblades are all Type IV, sorry I didnt make that clear. The type IV distinction requires sapience while these shardblades seemingly dont have them.

On 2/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Calderis said:

I'm not aware of this happening? 

Me neither apparently, went looking but I think I misremembered him being able to change size while drawn.

On 2/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Calderis said:

The consumption, yes... But the manner of acquisition, not at all. 

I would disagree (partially). Read the WoB below:

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Chaos

Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does.

Brandon Sanderson

I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color. :)

I think those black tendrils when he's consuming, leaving behind grey marks, is related, although the grey skin is a consequence of seemingly every shardblade. Any type of Ruinous investiture has not shown this effect. Regardless...

On 2/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Calderis said:

Has been true since the very beginning. 

I probably agree with you here, which is why I said "I've come up with my own explanation for at least some of his oddities." There just isnt much info here to do some proper speculation so I held off in this post at least, as I felt what I had was well supported. Thanks for the feedback!

Edit:

 @Jace21 @TheFoxQR Just wanted to add that Cognitive Shadows and spren have been described as pretty much the same thing, and while Nightblood has been described as a "robot spren" I think he still fits in that family of entities.

Edited by Blightsong
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11 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

 @Jace21 @TheFoxQR Just wanted to add that Cognitive Shadows and spren have been described as pretty much the same thing, and while Nightblood has been described as a "robot spren" I think he still fits in that family of entities.

Sure, they're both sentient investiture but how they get that way is very different. Since Nightblood has never died he can't be a cognitive shadow, I believe there's a WoB somewhere. Semantics I know but it just helps distinguish that Nightblood could have a divine breath and be a Spren without being a Returned due to the different processes involved.

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Cognitive Shadows and Spren are similar phenomena but not 100% the same thing. Spren are formed because of the excess Investiture on Roshar gaining sentience because of it not being used, while C-Shadows are just human minds copied into Investiture. Similar creatures but they're not toally the same (unless you're Rosharan)

Edited by Inky
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  • 2 months later...
On 2/12/2019 at 8:02 PM, Calderis said:

Nightblood outright steals. He reduces matter to its base Investiture and consumes it... He's absolutely destructive. Which is why I think that this... 

Has been true since the very beginning. 

We recently got a WoB that touches on this subject so I thought I'd post. @Extesian recently got the below WoB on reddit:

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Extesian

This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.

But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...

You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it.

This definitely leads me to believe that the magic system on Nalthis is what is responsible for the destructive force of Nightblood (not some kind of effect from Ruin's investiture at his inception) while the manner of acquisition is merely an effect him being a Shardblade. We have seen Shardblades penetrate people's spiritual aspects so it makes sense that one made using a magic system that we now know powers itself through any available source would take advantage and consume this pool of investiture it is clearly able to manipulate. This explanation obviously makes some leaps in logic, but much less so than one that involves Ruin's investiture being present at his creation. As for what Brandon meant in that WoB, I'm of the opinion that Nightblood possessing Ruin's investiture is simply from him consuming Scadrian investitute post-creation. What are your guy's thoughts on this topic now that we've gotten this WoB?

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The Divine Breath will consume a Returned in the same way as Nightblood feeds of his wielder. 

But the destructive force that reduces other things to its most fundamental component in order to consume it? 

The reason I disagree with that second statement is rooted firmly in a mistake I see in the first.

Nightblood certainly doesn't consume its wielders in the same manner as a Divine Breath consumes its Returned. As seen at the end of Oathbringer, the tendrils Nightblood emits while drawn seem to consume the physical form of Szeth in addition to the stromlight he possessed. The interesting bit about this effect is the grey skin that the consumption left behind, a phenomenon we've only ever seen from Shardblades. If the main aspects of Nightblood's consumption effects that differ from what we've seen on Nalthis can be reasonably traced back to the effects of Shardblades and how they destroy things it makes sense that his consumption of outside investiture and his destructive nature is rooted in the realmatic nature of Shardblades. This is without mentioning the black smoke shown in both the destructive power of Nightblood and that of Shardblades.

I've thought about it and I just don't see the same evidence of Ruin's nature being present in Nightblood's consumption effects. The only real connection I see is the point you brought up, that Nightblood is destructive, but that is far from evidence that Ruin is involved in Nightblood's effects. Consider someone as ignorant of the nature of Shardblades as we are of Nightblood, they could just as easily think "There is good evidence that Shardblades hold Ruin's investiture as well as Honor and Cultivation's; they are the most destructive weapons on Roshar, can penetrate souls with metal in a way similar to Hemalurgy, and even leave behind a smoke that is the color associated with Ruin!" Just because we're seeing destructive potential from Nightblood that exceeds our preconceived notion of what would come from Endowment's powers doesn't necessarily mean its Ruin's effect in the same way that Shardblades aren't of Ruin despite their destructive potential that exceeds what we'd expect of Honor and Cultivation.

The two phenomenon of Nightblood's consumption effect and a Shardblade's destructive power just seem too tied together for it to be a coincidence. Thoughts?

Edited by Blightsong
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@Blightsong a returned can survive off of any Investiture input, the exact same as how Nightblood can feed on his wielder.

And we have seen grey elsewhere. Specifically in Awakening. The color stolen from objects, and the grey flesh if Lifeless. 

I believe the grey leeching from the Tendrils is the accelerated consumption rate of Nightblood the longer he is drawn feeding faster and faster, and the greyed flesh is it starting to feed on the soul despite other investiture input. 

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30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Blightsong a returned can survive off of any Investiture input, the exact same as how Nightblood can feed on his wielder.

And we have seen grey elsewhere. Specifically in Awakening. The color stolen from objects, and the grey flesh if Lifeless. 

I believe the grey leeching from the Tendrils is the accelerated consumption rate of Nightblood the longer he is drawn feeding faster and faster, and the greyed flesh is it starting to feed on the soul despite other investiture input. 

Good points. I'll agree to disagree with the caveat that the grey skin from the tendrils seems more like the grey skin from Shardblades than the greyish skin of a drab in both severity and blotchiness, so I'm not totally convinced I'm wrong in making that connection. Not to mention the black smoke still present in the effects of both Shardblades and Nightblood.

Edited by Blightsong
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