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Turin Turambar

subspren-truespren relation theory

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In Oathbringer, the Stormfather mentions subspren and true spren. I think that perhaps subspren (assuming that they're the spren with little intellect like gloryspren, anticipation spren, and even windspren) might be able to become True spren (assuming they're things like Honor spren and Cryptics) given the ability. Syl supports this theory, though because she mentions being raised by an aunt - from what? I'd guess that she was raised from a subspren upwards. Also, maybe dead spren revert to their previous form. Though its interesting - that would mean that more than ten types of radiants are possible because even if you subscribe to the theory that there are two types of subspren for each radiant type (for windrunners, general theory states that it is windspren and gravitationspren) and I'd assume that there are more than 30 types of spren, 10 * 3 (2 sub, 1 true), or even triple it (for each magic system)

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The way that spren are made is some spren takes a journey to a massive source of Investiture in Shadesmar and forms a spren out of it. That is what Syl is referring to when she's talking about being raised: the Stormfather made her and she ended up being raised by aunt after what happened to her first bond and subsequent retrieval by the Stormfather as the last of her generation of Honorspren. Spren are made entirely of Investiture and to the best of our knowledge, only Sja-anat can even slightly change that, much less raise a mindless subspren to a sentient being. Deadeyes have a massive chunk of that Investiture ripped out, which is why they aren't conscious anymore and also why they need the 10 heartbeat thing as a Blade: the Blade's wielder's Investiture has to sync with the spren's Investiture to revive it enough to pull it into the Physical Realm.

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It sounds like the population of spren is set, as it takes a spren to make a spren. 

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True Spren seem to require specific Intent to Create by an empowered entity, and I "Empowered" because we've been told that this was an ability (and responsibility) Given to the Stormfather by Honor (as a change from how it had been before) some time before the Recreance, and before Honor's death, as part of the preparations Honor was making (creating the visions being another).  The Stormfather did this with Syl and some other's way back in the day but if I recall correctly not again after the Recreance killed so many.  The lesser, Sub-spren are something that I think can naturally evolve a lot easier (though we have WOB that any relatively large bit of Investiture can spontaneously gain sentience), because in many cases these sub-spren are, for example, spren of physical objects that can be modified.  A bolder will have a Spren, but break it in half (and give it enough time to adjust to the idea) and you'll have two different Spren made from the pieces. That's the most simplistic example I can think of but the rest (both phyical and more abstract) seem to follow the same general idea.

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so if you fill a shardblade with a massive amount of investiture, might it be easier for the sword to "heal"? Especially if you give it time to adjust to the idea that it's a live, healthy spren. 

Also as a separate idea (maybe this should be a different post) if a radiant found a way to "eat" a spren, since it's basically consentrated investiture, would that fill him or her with stormlight? That might be a way around the Weeping.

 

I just realized that this post is a bit of a non-sequitur.

Edited by Turin Turambar
non-sequitur
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8 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

so if you fill a shardblade with a massive amount of investiture, might it be easier for the sword to "heal"? Especially if you give it time to adjust to the idea that it's a live, healthy spren. 

Also as a separate idea (maybe this should be a different post) if a radiant found a way to "eat" a spren, since it's basically consentrated investiture, would that fill him or her with stormlight? That might be a way around the Weeping.

 

I just realized that this post is a bit of a non-sequitur.

First thing, it would be ridiculously difficult to store investure in a shardblade because investure resists investure. That is why it is hard to steel-push a metalmind. And there is more to the damaged shardblades than just missing investure. They are missing a part of their Identity that was taken by their former Radiant. We are not sure how to reverse this, but a popular theory is that the new shardbearer would have to swear the Oaths relating to the Order their blade originated from.

The spren eating presents a problem for the same reason as your shardblade idea. Identity is something we do not yet understand in the cosmere and would effect how that would work. 

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The Identity, though, we just said, is because of what they view themselves as (and maybe what people view them as?) Again, IF WE/THEY VIEW THEM AS HEALTHY SPREN. That should heal them - that would be my theory. 

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For what it's worth, Ive started to wonder if Regrowth could be used to heal a Deadeye, if applied to their actual form in the Cognitive Realm.  It's stated in WOB (or at least strongly implied) that you can use Hemalurgy on them if you can access their form in Shadesmar, which makes me wonder if they'd be more susceptible to other things there as well.   Pattern indicated at one point that Spren dont heal but can be healed, saying that it takes outside intervention (he was fascinated by mortal's ability to "self-repair").

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52 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

The Identity, though, we just said, is because of what they view themselves as (and maybe what people view them as?) Again, IF WE/THEY VIEW THEM AS HEALTHY SPREN. That should heal them - that would be my theory. 

I think Adolin coming to view Maya as more of a person than a thing, via meeting her in spren form in the Cognitive Realm is a factor in her (apparently) starting to heal.

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16 hours ago, Invocation said:

The way that spren are made is some spren takes a journey to a massive source of Investiture in Shadesmar and forms a spren out of it.

Where in the books does it talk about spren making a journey to a "massive source of Investiture" and making a new spren out of it?  

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2 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Where in the books does it talk about spren making a journey to a "massive source of Investiture" and making a new spren out of it?  

Syl explains it in the Shadesmar chapters in Oathbringer. While they are exploring Celebrant iirc. Not in exactly those words, but essentially.

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1 minute ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Where in the books does it talk about spren making a journey to a "massive source of Investiture" and making a new spren out of it?  

Oathbringer. Kindle page 949, Syl's explanation: "'We're made of power, bits of gods. There are places where that power coalesces, and parts start to be aware. You go, and then come back with a child? I think?'"

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I think that's a pretty vague description.  She even ends it with "I think?".  I agree with the larger point, that Radiant spren are not promoted from lower-level spren, but I think that their exact method of creation is a lot more complicated than "go to a Shardpool and ladle out some Investiture and poof ... you have a baby spren."  

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16 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I think that's a pretty vague description.  She even ends it with "I think?".  I agree with the larger point, that Radiant spren are not promoted from lower-level spren, but I think that their exact method of creation is a lot more complicated than "go to a Shardpool and ladle out some Investiture and poof ... you have a baby spren."  

Well, I mean it's definitely not as simple as that, Syl's own explanation hints that it's mostly a matter of finding Investiture that's ready to have a consciousness and maybe needs a pattern to work off of.

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