43 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I disagree. Investing in a planet means gaining access to the Investiture assigned to that Shard in that particular planet or solar system. That's how Autonomy pulls off her avatar trick. 

I agree, that's how Autonomy pulls off her Avatar trick. Completely disagree that it is the only way to invest a planet. All Autonomy seems to be doing with her avatars is creating a personality so she can control the power already there that is assigned to her, she is not actively putting anything into the planet (outside of Taldain) like Honor and Cultivation did on Roshar. At least from what we've seen so far.

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The only way I could potentially see H + C having more Investiture on Roshar than the other Shards is if after the Shattering they picked planets based on how much of their Investiture was available to them. But that has problems. Why would there be more of one flavor of Investiture on one planet than another? Was it set up that way by Uncle Addie?

Because the division of investiture was random, and that's how randomness works. If each Shard got 1/16 of Adonalsium's power but which 1/16 they got was random, it stands to reason it is distributed unevenly. 

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I believe that the entire Cosmere is made up of matter, energy, and Investiture. The building blocks of everything have elements of all 16 Shards just as they once were just Adonalasium. When a Shard visits a system they see the parts of that Investiture assigned to them as something they knew was a part of themselves both always and at that moment. Brandon of course explains that bit better than I. Anyway, the vessel then takes possession of that power and by doing so roots his/herself into that biosphere. The deeper the roots, the more the planet takes on that Shard's Investiture. The other sources are present but muted because there's no Vessel there to put down roots.

So you believe that once a Shard becomes aware of certain investiture, they will invest more in that place over time? Why would there awareness make a difference if the power was there to begin with? Investing, while sometimes unconscious, is also clearly able to be a conscious act otherwise every Shard would be invested everywhere as there power is everywhere.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I'll give one last example that supports my theory. Ambition. Uli Da and Rayse had a big chull fight. Rayse won but couldn't deliver the coup de grace. Uli Da ran to Threnody and Shattered. She couldn't bring her own Investiture to the show, it was bleeding outta her. It's highly unlikely that she just randomly made it to a planet where her Investiture was the dominant flavor there. My guess is that she was able to connect to her portion of Investiture on Threnody just before she keeled over. Because she's dead, magic don't work right there.

Considering you have it backwards, this doesn't really help your case. Uli Da and Rayse had the big fight on/near Threnody then Uli Da fled and was splintered/killed elsewhere. Even if your order of events is correct, we have no particular evidence that her investiture was the "dominant flavor" there before chunks got ripped off during her fight.

43 minutes ago, Inky said:

This is the WoB people are using to argue that Stormlight is purely Honor's investiture?! 

"comparable to Preservation's mist", "would it be like cultivationlight" and the response of "in the same sort of vein" combine to make it so vague as to be useless in saying Stormlight is pure Honor, that is speculation only. All that proves is she has her own investiture, which we could have guessed, and that Stormlight isn't just Cultivation, which no one thought anyway. But it doesn't give us anything to suggest Stormlight is only of Honor.

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4 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Can you please provide where this was said?

https://www.coppermind.net/wiki/Cultivation. The last paragraph on Influence. Though that's not a confirmation, it's speculation.

Edit: Whoops. Didn't realize there was a second page.

Edited by Jruesch2
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3 hours ago, Jace21 said:

So you believe that once a Shard becomes aware of certain investiture, they will invest more in that place over time? Why would there awareness make a difference if the power was there to begin with? Investing, while sometimes unconscious, is also clearly able to be a conscious act otherwise every Shard would be invested everywhere as there power is everywhere.

This isn't me pulling this outta thin air, this is what Brandon said is the nature of Vessels. They direct the infinite power of a Shard while being themselves being limited. Their minds are greatly expanded but a person's mind cannot be infinite. That results in a Vessel that's connected to everywhere their Shard's Investiture exists, but until they come across it they're unaware of that connection.  Of course once they become aware of that connection then they've always known of that connection. As a result of this somewhat confusing dichotomy, a Shard who never leaves the system it's invested in will never know about instances of its power that occur elsewhere.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, so we posit that two extraordinary things creation of spren and creation of Stormlight happened independently. It seems likelier that spren and Stormlight arose at the same time and for the same reason. Adonalsium made them. If we think otherwise, what powered the magic the sprens in symbiosis with, e.g. skyeels?

That's not what I'm proposing. What I'm saying is that the Stormlight we see today isn't the original Stormlight. It changed it's nature either when Adonalasium shattered or when Honor came to claim his Investiture. Of course it's speculations but I'm riding with that until I'm explicitly proven wrong.

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Stormlight pre-Shattering is probably not exactly the same as it is now. However, some version of it has to have existed pre-Shattering, otherwise half of Rosharan ecology wouldn't have evolved. Greatshells depend on stormlight and highstorms and spren to survive, as do chulls, skyeels, and who knows what else.

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4 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

This isn't me pulling this outta thin air, this is what Brandon said is the nature of Vessels. They direct the infinite power of a Shard while being themselves being limited. Their minds are greatly expanded but a person's mind cannot be infinite. That results in a Vessel that's connected to everywhere their Shard's Investiture exists, but until they come across it they're unaware of that connection.  Of course once they become aware of that connection then they've always known of that connection. As a result of this somewhat confusing dichotomy, a Shard who never leaves the system it's invested in will never know about instances of its power that occur elsewhere.

Sorry if I was unclear, that isn't what I was querying at all. I know that a Vessels mind is limited and they cannot use power until they are aware of it, which requires conscious effort.

It is how you think a Shard invests a planet that I am unclear on. 

You have said "Investing in a planet means gaining access to the Investiture assigned to that Shard in that particular planet or solar system", which would seem to imply that a Shard can only "invest" by taking control of it's investiture that was already there. Do you think Shards are limited like that? It seems more likely that having investiture already there is helpful, but not necessary. 

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That's not what I'm proposing. What I'm saying is that the Stormlight we see today isn't the original Stormlight. It changed it's nature either when Adonalasium shattered or when Honor came to claim his Investiture. Of course it's speculations but I'm riding with that until I'm explicitly proven wrong.

It changed who it was assigned to, from Adonalsium to Honor/Cultivation, but I doubt it changed much more than that or the planet would be too different.

You are obviously entitled to believe as you wish, but personally I see more evidence that Stormlight (in it's present form), is of Honor and Cultivation rather than just Honor.

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2 hours ago, Jace21 said:

It is how you think a Shard invests a planet that I am unclear on. 

You have said "Investing in a planet means gaining access to the Investiture assigned to that Shard in that particular planet or solar system", which would seem to imply that a Shard can only "invest" by taking control of it's investiture that was already there. Do you think Shards are limited like that? It seems more likely that having investiture already there is helpful, but not necessary

I do think the Shards are limited in exactly that fashion. If a Shard wants to float around, laying low until every's conflicts blow over (Brandon's infamous 'Survival Shard') then of course it's free to do so. But no magic system develops from that. By the same token a Shard can visit another world and not take up the local Investiture apportioned to him/her. Say Edgli wants to visit her good friend Cultivation so they can dish about boyz and such. On her visit to Roshar she sees endowment-flavored Investiture all around but doesn't reach for it. She doesn't wanna be tied to Roshar; she's got her own planet to run. Plus it would probably be rude to introduce herself to that system, now all of a sudden you got people flying around whenever they see the color blue or however crazy way Endowment interacts with Roshar. Whatever, no magic system is created. 

It's going to take more to invest in a system and by doing so create a magic system. An enemy Shard putting down roots is the first step. The theory for this is simple. All Shardic power is Infinite and everywhere. But when Shards clash it's not about power, it's about focus. A Shard with an anchor has a distinct advantage over one without an anchor because they can bring more of that power to bear at the point of attack. Now we've seen indications of Shards at war in 2 different Systems. Their first act in both instances was to establish an anchor. To me that means tapping into the local Investiture coded for them. That creates a magic system. That to me is the only reason why Odium, self-appointed enforcer of the 1 planet 1 Shard agreement at the Shattering, would invest enough in any planet to create a magic system. He needs an anchor in which to fight other deities. And I don't see him or any other Shard capable of dragging that type of anchor with them across the Cosmere.

 

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Relevant wobs. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There was a point when the Heralds didn't need to draw Stormlight from gems, although the Stormlight-in-gems predates Honor's arrival.

There was a following conversation about this topic, about how a lot of the elements were there before Honor arrived, but he co-opted them. So, Stormlight were there, but there are big differences now.

Footnote: Unspecified question by Pagerunner.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Stormlight predates Honor's arrival on Roshar. 

Quote

Narkac

Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)

The Stormfather is the source of stormlight on Roshar... 

So by necessity the Stormfather predates Honor's arrival and yet is a Splinter of Honor. 

By this, I don't think that the distribution of the shattering was equal everywhere. 

For example. 

Quote

Chaos [PENDING REVIEW]

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

I definitely think that there are bits of other shards in the spren... Rotspren are probably a mix of Cultivation and Ruin because of the nature of decaying matter and how it feeds other life... 

But I fully believe that Honor and Cultivation came to Roshar because it was already heavily associated with their Shards. 

Edit: as to the OP, I think that just as Voidlight has minor differences in the way it functions with the Surges, "cultivationlight" would function in minirly different ways as well (assuming that the green mist is a third form, the WoB asking about cultivationlight directly doesn't actually confirm it. It just says "there's more") 

Edited by Calderis
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On 10/2/2019 at 11:59 AM, Ciridae said:

@Oltux72 I'm afraid I don't understand your question... The Fused are the only ones we've seen use Voidlight, so observing how they use it is the only way we can theorize how it's usage is different from stormlight. The fact that the Fused and Heralds are cognitive shadows didn't really factor into my attempt at a comparison and I'm hesitant to say that it should.

We have a lot of descriptions of how stormlight behaves when inside a human body, and only a few instances where we can observe how Voidlight behaves, and with no pov to show us directly. 

This is a good WoB to illustrate what I'm trying to say:

 

Maybe lack of emotion or passion? It'd go in line with what we know of Odium and the name void.

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10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I do think the Shards are limited in exactly that fashion. If a Shard wants to float around, laying low until every's conflicts blow over (Brandon's infamous 'Survival Shard') then of course it's free to do so. But no magic system develops from that. By the same token a Shard can visit another world and not take up the local Investiture apportioned to him/her. Say Edgli wants to visit her good friend Cultivation so they can dish about boyz and such. On her visit to Roshar she sees endowment-flavored Investiture all around but doesn't reach for it. She doesn't wanna be tied to Roshar; she's got her own planet to run. Plus it would probably be rude to introduce herself to that system, now all of a sudden you got people flying around whenever they see the color blue or however crazy way Endowment interacts with Roshar. Whatever, no magic system is created. 

It's going to take more to invest in a system and by doing so create a magic system. An enemy Shard putting down roots is the first step. The theory for this is simple. All Shardic power is Infinite and everywhere. But when Shards clash it's not about power, it's about focus. A Shard with an anchor has a distinct advantage over one without an anchor because they can bring more of that power to bear at the point of attack. Now we've seen indications of Shards at war in 2 different Systems. Their first act in both instances was to establish an anchor. To me that means tapping into the local Investiture coded for them. That creates a magic system. That to me is the only reason why Odium, self-appointed enforcer of the 1 planet 1 Shard agreement at the Shattering, would invest enough in any planet to create a magic system. He needs an anchor in which to fight other deities. And I don't see him or any other Shard capable of dragging that type of anchor with them across the Cosmere.

 

But Investing in a planet limits the power a Shard has at their disposal, it's why Odium avoiding doing so until that was no longer possible because he got trapped. It's a natural process that happens when a Shard spends time in a particular location. I know you've said it's not about power, in your view, but that absolutely has an effect on the outcome. There's a reason Odium fears Harmony.

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@Bigmikey357, I guess we just disagree then.

We know that previously Odium has specifically avoided investing anywhere precisely so he can defeat Shards, so investing would seem to weaken you in a Shard Battle, not strengthen you.

We also know that your hypothetical of Endowment visiting Cultivation would be essentially impossible without withdrawing from and screwing up Nalthis, with the added chance that she would accidentally invest Roshar. It is something that happens automatically when Shards remain on a planet, they can't help it.

Calderis already covered pretty well why it seems likely Stormlight existed pre-Honor and that investiture of each Shard is distributed unevenly so I wont go through that again.

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3 hours ago, Jace21 said:

@Bigmikey357, I guess we just disagree then.

We also know that your hypothetical of Endowment visiting Cultivation would be essentially impossible without withdrawing from and screwing up Nalthis, with the added chance that she would accidentally invest Roshar. It is something that happens automatically when Shards remain on a planet, they can't help it.

Just a side point about this, (if I misunderstood I apologize in advance), but don't we know that since a shards power is all places and all times in the spiritual realm, there isn't so much a sense of movement, and communication could easily happen between two shards voluntarily without removing ones power from a planet? Also don't we have a very confusingly worded WoB that implies Autonomy is reached out to her power on other planets once she becomes aware of such a power and that is how she is creating her avatars? (not saying I fully understand the mechanism on how the avatars come to be, just that the WoB seems to state a shard does not have to leave their planet to access "their" power elsewhere. If I am in complete error, I look forward to hearing the correct information and learning something new)

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6 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a side point about this, (if I misunderstood I apologize in advance), but don't we know that since a shards power is all places and all times in the spiritual realm, there isn't so much a sense of movement, and communication could easily happen between two shards voluntarily without removing ones power from a planet? Also don't we have a very confusingly worded WoB that implies Autonomy is reached out to her power on other planets once she becomes aware of such a power and that is how she is creating her avatars? (not saying I fully understand the mechanism on how the avatars come to be, just that the WoB seems to state a shard does not have to leave their planet to access "their" power elsewhere. If I am in complete error, I look forward to hearing the correct information and learning something new)

You're right, the Spiritual realm is independent of location, but it's difficult to figure out the mechanics since terminology doesn't work for it.

Like Jasnah with "Shadesmar is not a place" and "the place (Shadesmar)". Brandon says the Spiritual is indeoendent of location, then says Endowment is "on" Nalthis. Its confusing. I think their "location" is simply where there attention is, but that investing in a place forces their attention there, which as their minds are limited blinds them to other planets, at least for the most part.

Autonomy seems to be getting around this by not "investing" per se as she would be limited how much she could, but granting "Autonomy" to the pockets of her investiture she find. While a normal Shard can't be aware of all their power, she gets around it by making the excess power self-aware.

I was responding to Bigmike's more on the basis of WoBs where shards are location based than the nature of the spiritual realm implies as thats the way the mechanics make the most sense to me.

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At this point @Jace21 and I will likely disagree and that's totally fine. I'll just explain my point of view as to how Shardic war Odium style commences. 

Basically I see it as a balance. In order for Rayse to put in a focused punch he has to put some roots down in the same Realm as his enemies who are likely heavily Invested. But if he gets as heavily Invested as his enemies then the power he has to bear gets tied up in the emerging magic system and its practitioners. It also makes it more difficult to leave a system once he emerges victorious. I believe his strategy for beating Aona and Skai was turning them against each other and striking them unawares. Not the ideal strategy for Tavanast and Culti.

As to why he fears Sazed, it's because he can Invest in his Realm deeply yet still have enough left in the tank to fight Rayse on better than even terms. Rayse wins anyway cause he has experience in how to hit another Shard directly, experience he hopes Saze never gets the opportunity to learn.

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We don't currently know what the Avatars are, just that Autonomy has figured out a way to reach out and... Nudge them. 

There's nothing that actually says she's using that power. Personally, I think that they aren't Bavadin, just sharing a Spiritual aspect with the Shard similar to a Nahel spren and a full Radiant. 

As far as what they can consciously use... It is definitely limited to the sphere of influence in the Cognitive Realm. 

Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

Questioner

How far does Sazed's power actually extend?

Brandon Sanderson

It is mostly limited to his immediate sphere of influence, so the planet.

Questioner

...But doesn't he move stars at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he moved the planet. His solar system, he can definitely have influence on the whole solar system. But none of the other planets around Scadrial are inhabited.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

If it weren't, Odium would never have had to search for Ambition in the first place. He could just strike at all the Shards through the Spiritual. 

Edited by Calderis
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16 hours ago, Jace21 said:

You're right, the Spiritual realm is independent of location, but it's difficult to figure out the mechanics since terminology doesn't work for it.

Like Jasnah with "Shadesmar is not a place" and "the place (Shadesmar)". Brandon says the Spiritual is indeoendent of location, then says Endowment is "on" Nalthis. Its confusing. I think their "location" is simply where there attention is, but that investing in a place forces their attention there, which as their minds are limited blinds them to other planets, at least for the most part.

Autonomy seems to be getting around this by not "investing" per se as she would be limited how much she could, but granting "Autonomy" to the pockets of her investiture she find. While a normal Shard can't be aware of all their power, she gets around it by making the excess power self-aware.

I was responding to Bigmike's more on the basis of WoBs where shards are location based than the nature of the spiritual realm implies as thats the way the mechanics make the most sense to me.

I gotcha. Don't have much further to add here. Thank you for taking the time to explain your perspective further. 

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

At this point @Jace21 and I will likely disagree and that's totally fine. I'll just explain my point of view as to how Shardic war Odium style commences. 

Basically I see it as a balance. In order for Rayse to put in a focused punch he has to put some roots down in the same Realm as his enemies who are likely heavily Invested. But if he gets as heavily Invested as his enemies then the power he has to bear gets tied up in the emerging magic system and its practitioners. It also makes it more difficult to leave a system once he emerges victorious. I believe his strategy for beating Aona and Skai was turning them against each other and striking them unawares. Not the ideal strategy for Tavanast and Culti.

As to why he fears Sazed, it's because he can Invest in his Realm deeply yet still have enough left in the tank to fight Rayse on better than even terms. Rayse wins anyway cause he has experience in how to hit another Shard directly, experience he hopes Saze never gets the opportunity to learn.

Do you feel Odium invested in Sel in order to shatter both Aona and Skai? Or are you saying he did not need to invest because he pit them against each other, so they were caught unawares? Just asking for clarification. 

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

We don't currently know what the Avatars are, just that Autonomy has figured out a way to reach out and... Nudge them. 

There's nothing that actually says she's using that power. Personally, I think that they aren't Bavadin, just sharing a Spiritual aspect with the Shard similar to a Nahel spren and a full Radiant. 

As far as what they can consciously use... It is definitely limited to the sphere of influence in the Cognitive Realm. 

Mistborn spoilers 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

How far does Sazed's power actually extend?

Brandon Sanderson

It is mostly limited to his immediate sphere of influence, so the planet.

Questioner

...But doesn't he move stars at the end?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he moved the planet. His solar system, he can definitely have influence on the whole solar system. But none of the other planets around Scadrial are inhabited.

Firefight Miami signing (Jan. 8, 2015)

If it weren't, Odium would never have had to search for Ambition in the first place. He could just strike at all the Shards through the Spiritual. 

I have to check, but isn't part of the limitation on

Spoiler

Sazed is due to how Preservation and Ruin created the planet? I believe I recall a WoB that said it would be more difficult than normal for Sazed to de-invest from Scadrial for that reason.

Not saying I disagree with your assertions, but just potentially adding additional information. 

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I do believe that Odium invested some in Sel when he took on Aona and Skai. I think that he induced them to fight each other somehow and he out down roots at the last when he felt that they had sufficiently weakened each other. Once they were Shattered he withdrew his power from the planet, stuffed their shards unassimilated into the CR and moved on.

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Going back to the original question of whether Cultivation's Investiture could power Surgebinding, I have every reason to believe that it could. I remember reading a WoB years ago that any type of Investiture, with a little work, could power any magic system. This is how Zahel/Vasher is able to survive on Roshar, instead of weekly Breaths, he just uses Stormlight. Taking it a step further, one could presumably use Mistborn metal-burning to fuel Surgebinding, a concept i find fascinating.

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