3rd Light Fuel

[Bigmikey357]

Ok. We know that KR are a participant in a mixed magic system. They all are a mix of Honor and Cultivation, some like Windrunner leaning more towards Honor and others like Edgedancer come down more on Cultivation side. Yet they are all fueled by Honor's Investiture, Stormlight. That makes sense because it's easy as hell to obtain. But it has been confirmed that Cultivation has her own Stormlight analog, though its official name has yet to be canonized.  The question is simple. Can Cultivation fuel Surgebinding? And if so, is it more efficient or less efficient than Stormlight?

[+Invocation]

I'd imagine Stormlight doesn't get used at the same rate for each of the orders (presumably the ones closer to Honor using it more efficiently) and if that's correct, then for the Cultivation alternative, it'd be pretty much the opposite: more towards Cultivation, more efficient. 

[Jruesch2]

4 hours ago, Invocation said:

I'd imagine Stormlight doesn't get used at the same rate for each of the orders (presumably the ones closer to Honor using it more efficiently) and if that's correct, then for the Cultivation alternative, it'd be pretty much the opposite: more towards Cultivation, more efficient. 

Is that how it works? I seem to remember Szeth thinking in the books that the Knights Radiant could hold Stormlight perfectly. Also, the way to test which is more efficient would be to see which orders that have the same abilities use the Stormlight more quickly than others, e.g., Windrunners and Skybreakers; Lightweavers and Elsecallers.

[+Invocation]

2 minutes ago, Jruesch2 said:

Is that how it works? I seem to remember Szeth thinking in the books that the Knights Radiant could hold Stormlight perfectly. Also, the way to test which is more efficient would be to see which orders that have the same abilities use the Stormlight more quickly than others, e.g., Windrunners and Skybreakers; Lightweavers and Elsecallers.

That's how I personally think it works, though there is little to hold that up in the books themselves, as most of the Radiants we've seen have been much more Honor-sided than Cultivation-sided (discounting Lift, because she's an oddity in a lot of ways regarding this). Szeth says that Radiants can hold Stormlight better when compared with the Honorblades, because the Honorblades are a prototype that eventually the Radiants mimicked with different methods (spren vs Honor directly infusing the Heralds). But, yes, there will have to be some studies done (or just asking Brandon). 

[Ciridae]

I think the difference would express itself in the way the user feels when holding the investiture. Stormlight leaks from your body and makes you want to move, makes you eager to act and use all that energy. 

When the Fused use Voidlight it looks like its sucking other light into them, in a weird penumbra. When they use gravitation they can't add a lot of lashings on top of each other, or change them as quickly, but they can hold one lashing for much longer than a surgebinder using stormlight could. So I think that Voidlight wants to stick, and tries to stay inside your body. Szeth even says he thinks voidbringers could hold the light perfectly. That's probably not true, but they can most likely hold it for extended periods of time. 

So maybe Cultivationlight is something in between, it doesn't try to force its way out and it doesn't try to cling. 

[+Oltux72]

39 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

So I think that Voidlight wants to stick, and tries to stay inside your body. Szeth even says he thinks voidbringers could hold the light perfectly. That's probably not true, but they can most likely hold it for extended periods of time. 

So maybe Cultivationlight is something in between, it doesn't try to force its way out and it doesn't try to cling. 

For whom? The original users of Stormlight were Heralds, not human Surgebinders. The Fused are biologically speaking Parshendi with gem hearts and Odium's equivalent of Heralds. Transferring observed effects on them to human Surgebinders is daring.

[Ciridae]

@Oltux72 I'm afraid I don't understand your question... The Fused are the only ones we've seen use Voidlight, so observing how they use it is the only way we can theorize how it's usage is different from stormlight. The fact that the Fused and Heralds are cognitive shadows didn't really factor into my attempt at a comparison and I'm hesitant to say that it should.

We have a lot of descriptions of how stormlight behaves when inside a human body, and only a few instances where we can observe how Voidlight behaves, and with no pov to show us directly. 

This is a good WoB to illustrate what I'm trying to say:

Quote

Shqueeves [PENDING REVIEW]

Stormlight, when you hold it, gives a sense of immediate urgency or movement. Does Voidlight have a similar emotional impact?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Shqueeves [PENDING REVIEW]

Is it the same as the urgency, or is it something different?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Something different.

Shqueeves [PENDING REVIEW]

What is it?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

RAFO. Good question.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Edited February 10, 2019 by Ciridae

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

@Oltux72 I'm afraid I don't understand your question... The Fused are the only ones we've seen use Voidlight, so observing how they use it is the only way we can theorize how it's usage is different from stormlight.

Yes. However we need to recognize that the data is thin.
If I were, for example, to propose that a Dustbringer cannot dissolve aluminium, you would find that neigh obvious. But we have never seen the attempt.

2 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

The fact that the Fused and Heralds are cognitive shadows didn't really factor into my attempt at a comparison and I'm hesitant to say that it should.

We have a lot of descriptions of how stormlight behaves when inside a human body, and only a few instances where we can observe how Voidlight behaves, and with no pov to show us directly. 

This is a good WoB to illustrate what I'm trying to say:

The thing is that we have never seen Stormlight in a Herald's body. We have many variables but only one observation.

[Ciridae]

43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The thing is that we have never seen Stormlight in a Herald's body. We have many variables but only one observation.

We have seen Nalan infused with Stormlight several times. But I understand your point that without a Pov of a herald we can't be sure that they feel what a surgebinder feels. 

Personally though, I find it far more unlikely that a Herald would feel something else, or nothing, than that they would feel just like any other surgebinder infused with Stormlight. Out of curiosity, do you think that they feel something else or are you just saying that we don't know for certain? 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Ciridae said:

Personally though, I find it far more unlikely that a Herald would feel something else, or nothing, than that they would feel just like any other surgebinder infused with Stormlight. Out of curiosity, do you think that they feel something else or are you just saying that we don't know for certain? 

Now you are opening u another question. To what extent do you get accustomed to Stormlight and its effect lessens? Also unknown.

I think Heralds are able to hold more Stormlight for longer than ordinary human beings, just because they are designed to use it.

[RShara]

I don't think stormlight is only Honor's investiture.  It makes plants grow, so there should be at least some Cultivation there.

[Jace21]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I think Heralds are able to hold more Stormlight for longer than ordinary human beings, just because they are designed to use it.

How are they designed to use it? The Honorblades are designed for their use, but Stormlight wasn't the fuel of the Honorblades.

The Heralds were fueled directly by Honor, we don't if this changed the effect or efficiency of the investiture or not.

But considering they were never supposed to "hold Stormlight", it seems likely (might be a WoB, I'm not 100%), that they are less efficient than a normal Knight.

That and we don't know for sure that Stormlight is purely Honors investiture as has already been said.

5 hours ago, Ciridae said:

We have seen Nalan infused with Stormlight several times. But I understand your point that without a Pov of a herald we can't be sure that they feel what a surgebinder feels. 

Nale is weird as he is also a 5th Ideal Radiant. We still haven't seen a non-Radiant Herald hold Stormlight.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

I don't think stormlight is only Honor's investiture.  It makes plants grow, so there should be at least some Cultivation there.

That raises a question. Roshar has animals that have evolved to bond spren and live of Stormlight. The Highstorms must be tens of millions of years old at a minimum. Honor is a few thousand years old. I don't see how Stormlight can be coming from Honor.

[Jace21]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That raises a question. Roshar has animals that have evolved to bond spren and live of Stormlight. The Highstorms must be tens of millions of years old at a minimum. Honor is a few thousand years old. I don't see how Stormlight can be coming from Honor.

Originally Roshar and Highstorms were created by Adonalsium and all investiture was his.

Once he was shattered all investiture was assigned to one of the 16 shards and they could claim it once they became aware of it.

It seems likely that most investiture on Roshar was assigned to Honor and Cultivation.

[Bigmikey357]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That raises a question. Roshar has animals that have evolved to bond spren and live of Stormlight. The Highstorms must be tens of millions of years old at a minimum. Honor is a few thousand years old. I don't see how Stormlight can be coming from Honor.

Spren, bonds and Highstorms predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar. Stormlight did not have to be present in those Highstorms for Roshar to evolve as it has. I believe Stormlight came later and Honor assimilated the storm to spread his Investiture. Afterwards, lifeforms adapted to all the freeflowing energy from the Spiritual Realm, finding ways to incorporate it into their life cycle. With the arrival of Honor a new nitche was created. Something filled it.

5 hours ago, Jace21 said:

Originally Roshar and Highstorms were created by Adonalsium and all investiture was his.

Once he was shattered all investiture was assigned to one of the 16 shards and they could claim it once they became aware of it.

It seems likely that most investiture on Roshar was assigned to Honor and Cultivation.

I doubt that's true. I believe that all the Shards' Investiture is evenly distributed throughout the Cosmere cluster except for on Scadrial, a planetary system created by Shards instead of Adonalasium. Honor's and Cultivation's Investiture is more prevalent on Roshar because they fully invested in the planet. There are likely traces of the other Shards there, else Odium would not have been able to flavor his own magic system in system. If Edgli wanted to, she could visit Roshar, invest in the system and create her own variant of Surgebinder. Remember, magic systems are determined by Shardic Intent + Planetary Interaction and the Shard has no real say in the form their Investiture is expressed, only in how a user acquires access.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Bigmikey357

[Jace21]

41 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Spren, bonds and Highstorms predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar. Stormlight did not have to be present in those Highstorms for Roshar to evolve as it has. I believe Stormlight came later and Honor assimilated the storm to spread his Investiture. Afterwards, lifeforms adapted to all the freeflowing energy from the Spiritual Realm, finding ways to incorporate it into their life cycle. With the arrival of Honor a new nitche was created. Something filled it.

Certainly possible, I just disagree. There is no real evidence either way at this point, we'll have to wait and see.

44 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I doubt that's true. I believe that all the Shards' Investiture is evenly distributed throughout the Cosmere cluster except for on Scadrial, a planetary system created by Shards instead of Adonalasium. Honor's and Cultivation's Investiture is more prevalent on Roshar because they fully invested in the planet. There are likely traces of the other Shards there, else Odium would not have been able to flavor his own magic system in system. If Edgli wanted to, she could visit Roshar, invest in the system and create her own variant of Surgebinder. Remember, magic systems are determined by Shardic Intent + Planetary Interaction and the Shard has no real say in the form their Investiture is expressed, only in how a user acquires access.

I said most investiture. An even distribution is unlikely as the evidence suggests it was assigned randomly which isnt the same as evenly. That said there is almost certainly some pre-shattering investiture on Roshar that is assigned to other shards, I just doubt it's a significant amount.

Everything else you've said about the mechanics of investing in a planet and formation of magic systems has no bearing on what I said. The investiture akready present on Roshar could all belong to one Shard and it still wouldn't prevent another Shard investing there. Just that the pre-invested investiture belonged wasn't theirs.

Odium and Endowment, your examples, could invest their by using their investiture without needing their own investiture to already be present.

[Bigmikey357]

I disagree. Investing in a planet means gaining access to the Investiture assigned to that Shard in that particular planet or solar system. That's how Autonomy pulls off her avatar trick. 

The only way I could potentially see H + C having more Investiture on Roshar than the other Shards is if after the Shattering they picked planets based on how much of their Investiture was available to them. But that has problems. Why would there be more of one flavor of Investiture on one planet than another? Was it set up that way by Uncle Addie? If that is the case then the first 16's agreement to go their separate ways was meaningless. Or if it's just natural fallout how do the non-omnipotent Vessels know where to find the planet they are most compatible with? And since there's more than 16 planets in the Cosmere cluster there's going to be a lot of different worlds where no Shard can Invest. What if a Shard picked the wrong one? There's a much higher likelihood that the Shard gets it wrong than right.

I believe that the entire Cosmere is made up of matter, energy, and Investiture. The building blocks of everything have elements of all 16 Shards just as they once were just Adonalasium. When a Shard visits a system they see the parts of that Investiture assigned to them as something they knew was a part of themselves both always and at that moment. Brandon of course explains that bit better than I. Anyway, the vessel then takes possession of that power and by doing so roots his/herself into that biosphere. The deeper the roots, the more the planet takes on that Shard's Investiture. The other sources are present but muted because there's no Vessel there to put down roots.

I'll give one last example that supports my theory. Ambition. Uli Da and Rayse had a big chull fight. Rayse won but couldn't deliver the coup de grace. Uli Da ran to Threnody and Shattered. She couldn't bring her own Investiture to the show, it was bleeding outta her. It's highly unlikely that she just randomly made it to a planet where her Investiture was the dominant flavor there. My guess is that she was able to connect to her portion of Investiture on Threnody just before she keeled over. Because she's dead, magic don't work right there.

 

[Turin Turambar]

It's all investiture - like Nightblood feeds off of stormlight. This only answers one part, though

Edited February 11, 2019 by Turin Turambar

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Stormlight did not have to be present in those Highstorms for Roshar to evolve as it has.

Larkin. How did they evolve without ample free investiture in the ecosystem? In fact it tells us that the highstorm hasn't been interrupted for any length of time. They would have starved to death.

[Bigmikey357]

38 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Larkin. How did they evolve without ample free investiture in the ecosystem? In fact it tells us that the highstorm hasn't been interrupted for any length of time. They would have starved to death.

Larkin can metabolize aka eat any type of Investiture, not just Stormlight. So that brings up a couple possibilities. 

1. Larkin are not native to Roshar.

We know Roshar is a popular destination for worldhoppers because it has tons and tons of free Investiture just floating around. One of them, or a group like the Iri, could have brought them along as they visited or migrated.

2. The modern Larkin is a recent adaptation.

If the Larkin evolved on Roshar, it probably started off from the same common ancestor as the numerous species of greatshells. Note when I say recent, I'm talking in evolutionary terms. So like within the last 5 to 10 thousand years give or take a decade. Anytime a new element is introduced into a closed system there will be lifeforms attempting to exploit it.

3. Investiture has always rode the Storms of Roshar.

We've been told that Roshar was designed and built by Uncle Addie. We know that every lifeform on the planet other than humanity is designed to survive, even thrive in a place where Force 5 hurricanes sweep the land bi-weekly. The argument could be made that Stormlight rode those storms before Honor Invested on Roshar. That would of course make Stormlight not Honor's Investiture. But was the Investiture that rode the storm before Honor came actually Stormlight, the same kind we witness in modern SA? It doesn't have to be.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Larkin can metabolize aka eat any type of Investiture, not just Stormlight. So that brings up a couple possibilities.

Many, but not every. For example, they do not jump you and suck you until you turn into a drab or a lifeless. Nor do they eat spren. And Lift stayed an Edgedancer.
That points to an evolution with freely available Investiture.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

1. Larkin are not native to Roshar.

We know Roshar is a popular destination for worldhoppers because it has tons and tons of free Investiture just floating around. One of them, or a group like the Iri, could have brought them along as they visited or migrated.

Possible, but not an explanation. You'd have to explain why there is a second place that met the conditions for them to evolve. And why do they looks so Rosharan like Cremlings?

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

2. The modern Larkin is a recent adaptation.

If the Larkin evolved on Roshar, it probably started off from the same common ancestor as the numerous species of greatshells. Note when I say recent, I'm talking in evolutionary terms. So like within the last 5 to 10 thousand years give or take a decade. Anytime a new element is introduced into a closed system there will be lifeforms attempting to exploit it.

6000 years or so for a completely new method of food generation? This looks like at least a preadaption would have been needed. But that means Investiture was available.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

3. Investiture has always rode the Storms of Roshar.

We've been told that Roshar was designed and built by Uncle Addie. We know that every lifeform on the planet other than humanity is designed to survive, even thrive in a place where Force 5 hurricanes sweep the land bi-weekly. The argument could be made that Stormlight rode those storms before Honor Invested on Roshar. That would of course make Stormlight not Honor's Investiture. But was the Investiture that rode the storm before Honor came actually Stormlight, the same kind we witness in modern SA? It doesn't have to be.

Otherwise the spren and Stormlight would have to have independent sources. That really looks like an alarming multiplication of sources of extraordinary phenomena.

Technically you left out an explanation:

4. Larkin are artificial creations from Rosharan stock - anti Radiant bioweapons

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

6000 years or so for a completely new method of food generation? This looks like at least a preadaption would have been needed. But that means Investiture was available.

It is a unique method but not entirely foriegn. This planet is teeming with beings that transverse Realms. Is it that much of a stretch for a being to evolve to eat such an abundant resource? I don't think so. IMO its a short step; hardly anything on Roshar sticks to its birth realm.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Many, but not every. For example, they do not jump you and suck you until you turn into a drab or a lifeless. Nor do they eat spren. And Lift stayed an Edgedancer.
That points to an evolution with freely available Investiture.

Well to be fair Chiri did suck that Fused in the bank vault dry. That speaks of choice, or being a picky eater. Hell, maybe Voidlight is tastier, in the same way one would rather eat steak than brussel sprouts.

Oh I didn't think of the bioweapon possibility, thus pointing to a purposefully designed entity. Get a couple hundred of them to clean up a certain Cognitive Realm Investiture spill. But then we get to ask who made them.

You know that some spren pre-date the arrival of H/C right? And before humans came to Roshar? And the ancient spren are fundamentally different than the more recent ones created when the Shards came a'callin? Things were different when Adonalasium built Roshar. Is it such a stretch to believe that Stormlight was different too? Or are you proposing that the stuff our favorite Radiants are sucking up has not changed in property or potency, is the same stuff that rode the Storms before the Shattering? I don't agree but a case can be made.

[+Oltux72]

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

It is a unique method but not entirely foriegn. This planet is teeming with beings that transverse Realms. Is it that much of a stretch for a being to evolve to eat such an abundant resource? I don't think so. IMO its a short step; hardly anything on Roshar sticks to its birth realm.

Spren that traverse realms. Still, if it evolved so recently, where are its relatives with a preadaption?

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Well to be fair Chiri did suck that Fused in the bank vault dry. That speaks of choice, or being a picky eater. Hell, maybe Voidlight is tastier, in the same way one would rather eat steak than brussel sprouts.

Or simple variation in diet.

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Oh I didn't think of the bioweapon possibility, thus pointing to a purposefully designed entity. Get a couple hundred of them to clean up a certain Cognitive Realm Investiture spill. But then we get to ask who made them.

You know that some spren pre-date the arrival of H/C right? And before humans came to Roshar?

Yes, so we posit that two extraordinary things creation of spren and creation of Stormlight happened independently. It seems likelier that spren and Stormlight arose at the same time and for the same reason. Adonalsium made them. If we think otherwise, what powered the magic the sprens in symbiosis with, e.g. skyeels?

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And the ancient spren are fundamentally different than the more recent ones created when the Shards came a'callin? Things were different when Adonalasium built Roshar. Is it such a stretch to believe that Stormlight was different too? Or are you proposing that the stuff our favorite Radiants are sucking up has not changed in property or potency, is the same stuff that rode the Storms before the Shattering? I don't agree but a case can be made.

Yes, but the counter case can be made, too , and somewhat easier.

[insert_anagram_here]

On 2/10/2019 at 1:18 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

it has been confirmed that Cultivation has her own Stormlight analog, though its official name has yet to be canonized

Can you please provide where this was said?

[Inky]

@insert_anagram_here  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12207