Walin

Logistics and Ethics of Industrialized Hemalurgy

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I know there's already a thread right now about the ethics of Hemalurgy, but it primarily deals with those getting spiked, and whether they can recover.

Based on two pages of results for "Hemalurgy," and seeing nothing about industrial Hemalurgy, I decided to make a thread for speculating about Hemalurgy's use on a large scale.

Hemalurgy isn't super efficient. It can be used to kill one person and preserve their power for a few more people until said power becomes so small as to be negligible. With the use of Feruchemical gold, a spikee can be spiked multiple times without dying--though they probably suffer from so many scars that using gold is impractical. If Hemalurgy were to be treated like organ donorship is today, it would clearly not have a large supply. Lots of people abhor the idea of getting spiked in the chest, even if it helps their fellow Scadrian/worldhopper/their country as a whole.

Because of this low supply, efficiency in distributing and using Hemalurgy is critical. Ethics are a part of this discussion, particularly because Hemalurgy causes physical, as well as psychological, discomfort. How does an advanced society use Hemalurgy, and how can it do so without committing war crimes? There are several choices regarding the distribution of spikes--help the military, or improve infrastructure, or perhaps safely remove spikes from people after their task is done? Does a Pewter-Tin Allomancer rifleman retire? Should a Steel-Compounding rescue operator return their spikes when off-duty? Is gold plentiful enough for use (like an IV) in any hospital, or is it reserved for the elite or the workers with dangerous but irreplaceable jobs? Can people charge for, or buy their own, spikes?

What should be the Hemalurgic appendum to the Geneva Convention, and how should ethics be weighed over efficiency?

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Honestly, in terms of both ethical questions and practical, logistic issues, I think they advent of Medallions would make it mostly irrelevant, at least for the basic sharing of Powers, to the point where it would become more of a black-market thing.  I highly doubt it would even be as commonplace as swapping spikes out after a work-shift, or even at the end of a Tour of Duty, so far the implication has been that even with Gold Healing there are going to be spiritual scars.

The only thing that Spike can do that Medallions cannot is the sharing of the non-metallic arts things, your Strength, senses, or Mental Fortitude sort of things. It might still find niche use on the official side in the case of Stealing Identity to be able to forcibly access Metalminds, Copper in particular, and I would not be at all surprised to see Aluminum Spikes used on empowered Criminals. I also have absolutely NO idea what sort of Pandora's Box Chronium "Destiny" stealing might be. 

Beyond that, I could see Spikes becoming a sort of Inheritance that you could willingly leave to your heirs (after your will is witnessed and recorded in UnKeyed Copper, to avoid forgeries), where you have a Donor Card/Tattoo that lets them know you want to be spiked if you become terminal and on Life Support. It could culturally become a very personal memento, leaving an actual, empowering Piece of your Soul to your loved ones.   

And all that is assuming they dont become broadly aware of the fact that Hemalurgy makes one vulnerable to Shardic Influence, which will become more and more relevant as the Trell issue plays out, and then once they become Space-fairing. 

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I forgot about medallions.

However, for the sake of argument, I'll still argue that spikes have a few advantages over medallions that will still make them very valuable. Medallions require recharging by the Excisors. We don't know how much Feruchemy they can actually store, but since they're metalminds, they will run out eventually. For the military, nicrosil could be Compounded (if that's how medallions are replenished) in supply areas, but for espionage spikes would have to be used because of how espionage works (though dead drops coupled with communication could probably work). Adventurers and mappers would definitely want spikes, because they may get lost--or lose medallions on their way--and being able to compound Bendalloy for survival is much easier with spikes.

Everything else, though, like copperminds and goldminds in a first aid kit, etc. would best be done with medallions. Medallions work really well in a society with access to the Southern Scadrians, and after Bands of Mourning it looks like there'll be a good supply of charges for most cities. While spikes might let you use more than a few powers at a time, having two powers is pretty much all one needs in modern situations.

Though that makes me wonder--since spikes don't need recharging, would the sale of Hemalurgic spikes be highly regulated or just illegal? Would there be an underground market for spikes, selling burglary and white-collar crime tools like A-Tin and F-Zinc spikes?

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It would probably be illegal to sell. However A&F-gold and A-pewter spikes would have special exceptions as they DO have an advantage over medallions. 

You have to know you have a medallion to use it. However, you burn metals instinctively. (You can tap instinctively too, sometimes, but not from a medallion.) If someone is unconscious you can’t make them tap a medallion. F&A gold spikes, with blank gold metalminds swallowed, would allow instinctive compounding. A-Pewter could keep someone going just that little bit longer. A few others might just give natural abilities enough of a boost to keep someone alive, in cases where swallowing is not possible.

So there would be special laws allowing those spikes to be sold to hospitals.

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On 2/7/2019 at 3:32 PM, Quantus said:

The only thing that Spike can do that Medallions cannot is the sharing of the non-metallic arts things, your Strength, senses, or Mental Fortitude sort of things. It might still find niche use on the official side in the case of Stealing Identity to be able to forcibly access Metalminds, Copper in particular, and I would not be at all surprised to see Aluminum Spikes used on empowered Criminals. I also have absolutely NO idea what sort of Pandora's Box Chronium "Destiny" stealing might be.

  1. If spikes and medaillions don't interfere, you will get closer to a mistborn combining them.
  2. Execution of criminals could be by hemalurgy
  3. The vulnerability to external influences can be the desired effect if you want to create minions

 

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Whether or not the in-world inhabitants of Scadrial know this, i do not know, but it has been confirmed via WoB that any hemalurgy (which involves the tearing off of someone's spirit web), no matter how it is done (except potentially gold healing regrowing it) is traumatic and horribly affects the individual. This is especially noticeable when they die and are viewed from the cognitive realm. So for that reason alone, for myself, I do not believe there is a way to possibly have hemalurgy be ethical in any shape or form. I do not even think we can conclusively determine that there aren't any potential negative effects when used with gold healing to regrow the portion of the spirit web torn away. 

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If the person is under heavy anesthesia when they are spiked I doubt it would be very traumatic. And after, they’re no longer alive.

To minimize trauma to the recipient, spikes would be shaped into thin needles (varying from knitting to sewing needle in diameter) and inserted while under anesthesia or as an emergency, life saving, measure. Gold medallions would allow the spikes to be removed.

Spiking as a method of execution would be determined based on the individuals belief system. You’d get options: spiked under anesthesia, bullet to the heart/center of the forehead, poison/lethal injection. (IRL, why don’t we give options to people being executed? And why don’t we put them under anesthesia?) In world, it would be very controversial. If spiking is chosen the spike (decided after several lawsuits) is given to the family (initially it went to the government.) If there is no family, the government takes possession.

Spikes are considered assets with regard to estate taxes. There is a set value, adjusted for inflation, for each kind of spike.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If the person is under heavy anesthesia when they are spiked I doubt it would be very traumatic. And after, they’re no longer alive.

To minimize trauma to the recipient, spikes would be shaped into thin needles (varying from knitting to sewing needle in diameter) and inserted while under anesthesia or as an emergency, life saving, measure. Gold medallions would allow the spikes to be removed.

Spiking as a method of execution would be determined based on the individuals belief system. You’d get options: spiked under anesthesia, bullet to the heart/center of the forehead, poison/lethal injection. (IRL, why don’t we give options to people being executed? And why don’t we put them under anesthesia?) In world, it would be very controversial. If spiking is chosen the spike (decided after several lawsuits) is given to the family (initially it went to the government.) If there is no family, the government takes possession.

Spikes are considered assets with regard to estate taxes. There is a set value, adjusted for inflation, for each kind of spike.

Give me like 10 minutes or so and I will add the WoB, but Brandon has confirmed it screws up the person's soul/spiritweb that gets it ripped out of them. So you could anesthetize them all you want when they die, the version of them that pops up into the cognitive realm before they pass on is definitely damaged. So knowing despite the physical not seeming effected, but the cognitive clearly is, can it still be seen as ethical? And would that then be deemed cruel and unusual punishment during executions?

edit: posted a few below. bolded what i think is pertinent. 

 

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]
Given a situation where they have perfect knowledge of Hemalurgy--everything is known. Is it possible they could use a Shard-scalpel and spike to carefully...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
To excise without killing somebody? The real damage is to the soul...

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]
I'm imagining taking out toxic sort of things.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
You've seen Vasher do something similar, so it's not off books that that's possible.

 

Questioner
Are Hemalurgic spikes fabrials? Is a body that has been spiked a fabrial? Are koloss and kandra also something similar?

Brandon Sanderson
No, actually.

Fabrial means specifically a bit of Investiture that has been trapped by a gemstone and then modified to do something else. Hemalurgy is its own thing--though there is a slight similarity. In most Hemalurgy, Investiture keyed to the Identity of someone (a bit of a soul) is ripped off, and then magically grafted onto someone else's soul. Not the same, though I can see the confusion.

Koloss and kandra are similar, though in this case, the soul is mostly just being distorted by using an Invested spike. In the cosmere, the body will attempt to match the soul, and so a twisted soul (Spiritual aspect of a person) can have profound effects on both mind and body.

 

Questioner (on behalf of Yata)
When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson
If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner
The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson
Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner
Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

Edited by Pathfinder
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There is the issue of Koloss needing new spikes. Their supply of spikes is limited and that limits the size of their tribes. 

They may need to develop a donor system of some kind. I can see it being a sacred ritual at the end of a person's life. 

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On 2/15/2019 at 11:45 AM, Pathfinder said:

Give me like 10 minutes or so and I will add the WoB, but Brandon has confirmed it screws up the person's soul/spiritweb that gets it ripped out of them. So you could anesthetize them all you want when they die, the version of them that pops up into the cognitive realm before they pass on is definitely damaged. So knowing despite the physical not seeming effected, but the cognitive clearly is, can it still be seen as ethical? And would that then be deemed cruel and unusual punishment during executions?

edit: posted a few below. bolded what i think is pertinent. 

 

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]
Given a situation where they have perfect knowledge of Hemalurgy--everything is known. Is it possible they could use a Shard-scalpel and spike to carefully...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
To excise without killing somebody? The real damage is to the soul...

Steeldancer [PENDING REVIEW]
I'm imagining taking out toxic sort of things.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
You've seen Vasher do something similar, so it's not off books that that's possible.

 

Questioner
Are Hemalurgic spikes fabrials? Is a body that has been spiked a fabrial? Are koloss and kandra also something similar?

Brandon Sanderson
No, actually.

Fabrial means specifically a bit of Investiture that has been trapped by a gemstone and then modified to do something else. Hemalurgy is its own thing--though there is a slight similarity. In most Hemalurgy, Investiture keyed to the Identity of someone (a bit of a soul) is ripped off, and then magically grafted onto someone else's soul. Not the same, though I can see the confusion.

Koloss and kandra are similar, though in this case, the soul is mostly just being distorted by using an Invested spike. In the cosmere, the body will attempt to match the soul, and so a twisted soul (Spiritual aspect of a person) can have profound effects on both mind and body.

 

Questioner (on behalf of Yata)
When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson
If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours--

Questioner
The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die--

Brandon Sanderson
Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

Questioner
Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or--

Brandon Sanderson
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too.

This requires that people know about this. And it hasn’t stopped the Nalthians from selling breath yet! There will always be those who don’t care too much about any spiritual side effects. And then there are those who will view it as keeping a part of a revered ancestor’s soul alive.

That’s why I suggested options for the death row prisoners. I don’t consider it cruel and unusual if they choose to be spiked. Then it’s their choice.

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On 2/17/2019 at 8:39 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This requires that people know about this. And it hasn’t stopped the Nalthians from selling breath yet! There will always be those who don’t care too much about any spiritual side effects. And then there are those who will view it as keeping a part of a revered ancestor’s soul alive.

That’s why I suggested options for the death row prisoners. I don’t consider it cruel and unusual if they choose to be spiked. Then it’s their choice.

That is why I said in my original post on this thread "Whether or not the in world inhabitants of Scadrial know this, I do not know, but". Breath is a different matter. It is extra. People on Nalthis are naturally more invested than people from other planets, but when they voluntarily give up their breaths, they are slightly less invested than people on other planets. Their health and "quality of life" is reduced, when compared to someone with a breath, but it is far an away a different creature from getting part of who you are violently ripped away

Well that is my question to you. (forgetting our real world religions, or religion on the whole) If you knew that by spiking someone, or being spiked, who you are is horribly and painfully ripped away, can you truly say it is ethical, even if the end result is death? There is a reason for the "cruel and unusual" clause for the death penalty. The guillotine was invented to be more humane than using an ax that could potentially stick in the person's neck, and require a second or third swing. The person is still being killed, so it could be said "well they won't care after that", yet there are moral and ethical questions on how we get the person there. If it was known what hemalurgy does to your spirit web, I could easily see it being filed under hanging, beheading (via ax), and the electric chair. Storms, there are cases when a lethal injection is performed incorrectly by the doses being administered in the wrong amounts or at the wrong times. You could anesthetize the person all you want, it does not change what is done to the person themselves. 

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I don’t consider it cruel and unusual if the person makes a conscious choice with full understanding as to the effects. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be an ethical issue in-world or out, but I wouldn’t consider it cruel to allow someone - who is going to be killed, no matter what - the freedom to choose the means, even if that means might be a rather barbaric one. Honestly, I feel taking away that last choice is far crueler than any method the condemned might choose.

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23 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Well that is my question to you. (forgetting our real world religions, or religion on the whole) If you knew that by spiking someone, or being spiked, who you are is horribly and painfully ripped away, can you truly say it is ethical, even if the end result is death? There is a reason for the "cruel and unusual" clause for the death penalty. The guillotine was invented to be more humane than using an ax that could potentially stick in the person's neck, and require a second or third swing. The person is still being killed, so it could be said "well they won't care after that", yet there are moral and ethical questions on how we get the person there. If it was known what hemalurgy does to your spirit web, I could easily see it being filed under hanging, beheading (via ax), and the electric chair. Storms, there are cases when a lethal injection is performed incorrectly by the doses being administered in the wrong amounts or at the wrong times. You could anesthetize the person all you want, it does not change what is done to the person themselves. 

The closest real world equivalent I can think of is Organ Donation (which on it's face is just as Horrible and Painful a procedure as this, save that we take pains to do it far more cleanly), and the ethics there generally fall on two fundamental principles: 1) that the person is irrevocably terminal AND has previously agreed to be used that way (or in the case of DNR's has also specifically asked not to be revived by other means) and 2) that the recipient has a very real Need for the addition/replacement.  So it would to be a Choice by the donor and it's a Need rather than an unnecessary/elective procedure by the Recipient. 

Now, all the procedure in the world doesnt stop us from having horror-stories of tourists waking up in a bathtub full of ice missing a kidney, but similarly that back-alley butchery doesnt entirely negate the possibility of doing it ethically.

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16 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t consider it cruel and unusual if the person makes a conscious choice with full understanding as to the effects. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be an ethical issue in-world or out, but I wouldn’t consider it cruel to allow someone - who is going to be killed, no matter what - the freedom to choose the means, even if that means might be a rather barbaric one. Honestly, I feel taking away that last choice is far crueler than any method the condemned might choose.

I disagree, but I did ask how you felt on the matter, and I respect your personal views. 

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The closest real world equivalent I can think of is Organ Donation (which on it's face is just as Horrible and Painful a procedure as this, save that we take pains to do it far more cleanly), and the ethics there generally fall on two fundamental principles: 1) that the person is irrevocably terminal AND has previously agreed to be used that way (or in the case of DNR's has also specifically asked not to be revived by other means) and 2) that the recipient has a very real Need for the addition/replacement.  So it would to be a Choice by the donor and it's a Need rather than an unnecessary/elective procedure by the Recipient. 

Now, all the procedure in the world doesnt stop us from having horror-stories of tourists waking up in a bathtub full of ice missing a kidney, but similarly that back-alley butchery doesnt entirely negate the possibility of doing it ethically.

Thing is do we have a means to make hemalurgy painless? Do we know a physical means of anesthetizing would also numb the feeling of getting your spiritweb torn out? We have never seen the PoV of someone getting something spiked out of them. I do not feel Organ Donation can be considered analogous as you can actually prevent the person from experiencing the horrible and painful procedure, while I do not think the same can be said of hemalurgy. Even if I give you that anesthesia could deaden the feelings of even having your spiritweb torn asunder (which I do not think is the case), when the person ends up in the cognitive realm before transition into the beyond, they are still all torn up and in pain. True they go faster than most people, but that does not change their state of being in the cognitive realm. Do you know of any means that could anesthetize that? Because to the best recollection of book and WoB, there is not. I go back to the last WoB I posted

"when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too."  

I could not see Brandon making a point to say what is left in the cognitive realm is a bad thing, a very bad thing if the person it was done to didn't feel any pain or was not horribly "disfigured" in the cognitive sense. For me, till that issue can be resolved, I cannot consider any form of hemalurgy that causes that ethical. It does not matter if the person signs off on it. We are not talking euthanasia where the person drifts off and doesn't wake up. We are talking about a procedure that to me, no matter how you anesthetize the body, the cognitive self still ends up like someone waking up in a bathtub without a kidney (to use your own example). 

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4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I disagree, but I did ask how you felt on the matter, and I respect your personal views. 

Thing is do we have a means to make hemalurgy painless? Do we know a physical means of anesthetizing would also numb the feeling of getting your spiritweb torn out? We have never seen the PoV of someone getting something spiked out of them. I do not feel Organ Donation can be considered analogous as you can actually prevent the person from experiencing the horrible and painful procedure, while I do not think the same can be said of hemalurgy. Even if I give you that anesthesia could deaden the feelings of even having your spiritweb torn asunder (which I do not think is the case), when the person ends up in the cognitive realm before transition into the beyond, they are still all torn up and in pain. True they go faster than most people, but that does not change their state of being in the cognitive realm. Do you know of any means that could anesthetize that? Because to the best recollection of book and WoB, there is not. I go back to the last WoB I posted

"when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too."  

I could not see Brandon making a point to say what is left in the cognitive realm is a bad thing, a very bad thing if the person it was done to didn't feel any pain or was not horribly "disfigured" in the cognitive sense. For me, till that issue can be resolved, I cannot consider any form of hemalurgy that causes that ethical. It does not matter if the person signs off on it. We are not talking euthanasia where the person drifts off and doesn't wake up. We are talking about a procedure that to me, no matter how you anesthetize the body, the cognitive self still ends up like someone waking up in a bathtub without a kidney (to use your own example). 

The problem with that argument is think I would categorize that as going back to the religious domain that you wanted to discount, as that was precisely the argument historically used against organ donation and/or any postmortem mutilation, and is contingent on what you (or whomever is making the choice) believes happens to them after they die.  There also seems to be a lot of in-world beliefs that consider the thing that goes Beyond and the Cognitive Aspect to be entirely separate things, but Brandon's said he intends to leave it unexplained. I suspect we'll see different Scadrian groups that fall on both sides. 

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

The problem with that argument is think I would categorize that as going back to the religious domain that you wanted to discount, as that was precisely the argument historically used against organ donation and/or any postmortem mutilation, and is contingent on what you (or whomever is making the choice) believes happens to them after they die.  There also seems to be a lot of in-world beliefs that consider the thing that goes Beyond and the Cognitive Aspect to be entirely separate things, but Brandon's said he intends to leave it unexplained. I suspect we'll see different Scadrian groups that fall on both sides. 

For me, I am keeping the Beyond and the Cognitive realm separate. It is possible to travel to the cognitive realm, and see a person's cognitive self when they pass. That is why the Aimian was concerned about telling the dying soulcaster anything. That even if she died, before she passed to the beyond, she could be interrogated. To me you do not have to be religious to accept the cognitive realm exists, and the cognitive self exists. For me it would be the same if humanity on earth found a way to download the human consciousness onto a computer and allow it to live on. If during that download, you want to take some memories for record keeping lets say, and resulting from that process the consciousness transferred to the computer ends up distorted and in pain, then I would consider that unethical. No religion involved. Personally I am not speaking of the after life. I am speaking of a location (the cognitive realm) that can be visited, and a state of being (the cognitive self) that can be observed. At that state, that can be observed, the person's cognitive self is irrevocably damaged. That individual has a moment of existence that is pain and horror that to me can not be dismissed. That to me is unethical. Whatever happens when they go to the beyond is immaterial to me. This for me falls under the person waking up during surgery and feelings everything, and then passing away. First they are anesthetized and feel nothing, then they feel pain and horror, then they no longer exist. If you cannot remove the pain and horror portion, then I do not think it is ethical. 

edit: Basically I am trying to say the cognitive self that shows up in the cognitive realm before transition to the beyond is still a person to me, and if that person is subjected to pain and horror prior to transitioning to the Beyond (regardless what the beyond may be), then you have a person experiencing pain and horror. Just because it is not evident on the physical realm, with the physical body, does not negate that it is evident on the cognitive realm, with the cognitive body. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

For me, I am keeping the Beyond and the Cognitive realm separate. It is possible to travel to the cognitive realm, and see a person's cognitive self when they pass. That is why the Aimian was concerned about telling the dying soulcaster anything. That even if she died, before she passed to the beyond, she could be interrogated. To me you do not have to be religious to accept the cognitive realm exists, and the cognitive self exists. For me it would be the same if humanity on earth found a way to download the human consciousness onto a computer and allow it to live on. If during that download, you want to take some memories for record keeping lets say, and resulting from that process the consciousness transferred to the computer ends up distorted and in pain, then I would consider that unethical. No religion involved. Personally I am not speaking of the after life. I am speaking of a location (the cognitive realm) that can be visited, and a state of being (the cognitive self) that can be observed. At that state, that can be observed, the person's cognitive self is irrevocably damaged. That individual has a moment of existence that is pain and horror that to me can not be dismissed. That to me is unethical. Whatever happens when they go to the beyond is immaterial to me. This for me falls under the person waking up during surgery and feelings everything, and then passing away. First they are anesthetized and feel nothing, then they feel pain and horror, then they no longer exist. If you cannot remove the pain and horror portion, then I do not think it is ethical. 

edit: Basically I am trying to say the cognitive self that shows up in the cognitive realm before transition to the beyond is still a person to me, and if that person is subjected to pain and horror prior to transitioning to the Beyond (regardless what the beyond may be), then you have a person experiencing pain and horror. Just because it is not evident on the physical realm, with the physical body, does not negate that it is evident on the cognitive realm, with the cognitive body. 

Alright, Im with you now, sorry I was thinking along slightly different lines. 

That is definitely something I can agree with, but I think it boils down to a different issue than the ethics of Hemalurgy itself.  To use your example, the Question of whether Capital Punishment is ethical is a different conversation entirely than the question of whether specific methods of Execution are ethical.  And to go back my example, Organ Transplants would indeed be completely horrific if modern medicine didnt have things like anesthesia to prevent it from being an exercise in torture.  We're agreed that any kind of experienced Torture is unethical basically by definition, but his strikes me as less of a fundamental ethics issue and more of a technological barrier. 

As you say, it's possible to travel to the Cognitive realm and witness the effects and fallout of Spiking a person on that side, to determine if there is indeed any experienced Pain before they move on, and that could be done, though again a willing volunteer would make a lot of difference in the Ethics of such experimentation.  From there it's just a matter of developing the Feruchemical fabrial* technology to achieve cognitive anesthesia.  Pain Fabrials exist, sometime similar to that might work if aimed more at the Cognitive. Some combination of Feruchemy might help, perhaps filling a combination of Senses, Mental Speed, and Wakefulness would result in a functional cognitive dullness similar to chemical anesthesia. Perhaps tapping a very little Gold would prevent the cognitive pain without actually regrowing the lost spiritweb (which apparently has it's own issues).

 

*WOB has it that Fabrial will eventually be a more cosmere-wide term for Investiture-based technology, and not purely applied to Rosharan Gem-based devices.

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Alright, Im with you now, sorry I was thinking along slightly different lines. 

That is definitely something I can agree with, but I think it boils down to a different issue than the ethics of Hemalurgy itself.  To use your example, the Question of whether Capital Punishment is ethical is a different conversation entirely than the question of whether specific methods of Execution are ethical.  And to go back my example, Organ Transplants would indeed be completely horrific if modern medicine didnt have things like anesthesia to prevent it from being an exercise in torture.  We're agreed that any kind of experienced Torture is unethical basically by definition, but his strikes me as less of a fundamental ethics issue and more of a technological barrier. 

As you say, it's possible to travel to the Cognitive realm and witness the effects and fallout of Spiking a person on that side, to determine if there is indeed any experienced Pain before they move on, and that could be done, though again a willing volunteer would make a lot of difference in the Ethics of such experimentation.  From there it's just a matter of developing the Feruchemical fabrial* technology to achieve cognitive anesthesia.  Pain Fabrials exist, sometime similar to that might work if aimed more at the Cognitive. Some combination of Feruchemy might help, perhaps filling a combination of Senses, Mental Speed, and Wakefulness would result in a functional cognitive dullness similar to chemical anesthesia. Perhaps tapping a very little Gold would prevent the cognitive pain without actually regrowing the lost spiritweb (which apparently has it's own issues).

 

*WOB has it that Fabrial will eventually be a more cosmere-wide term for Investiture-based technology, and not purely applied to Rosharan Gem-based devices.

No worries

Personally I am not sure "cognitive anesthesia" could potentially be possible but if it were, then that would handle the big speed bump I mentioned. Personally I would still have a problem with it as I do not see an organ as "me" while I would view the spiritweb or my cognitive "self" as part of who I am, so ripping that off of me would still concern me, but that is more personal than truly ethical. For instance I would probably end up one of those old men flying on planes everywhere even though it is much slower than data teleportation (if it ever was made possible) because you could not guarantee that the me that pops up on the other end is still me and not just a copy while the original me is now dead. Rip a hole in space, and have me step through it to the other location sure, but no thank you to the data teleportation lol. 

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