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I dont want Adonalsium to be restored


Gray to

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I've never liked the theory that eventually someone (maybe Hoid) will get all the Shards and remake Adonalsium. Even though it makes sense and there's a lot of evidence for it, I really hope the story doesnt go in that direction. In my opinion, it seems kind of cliche and obvious, and obvious is not a Sanderson-like quality. 

I dont really know what I want the ending of the cosmere to be like. As long as no one Splinters Sazed, I'm fine. 

How do you guys think the Cosmere should end?

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I really need to make a topic on why I don't want that to happen, too. Briefly, too similar to the ending of WoT (cyclitic Ages), too obvious, and given the Traveler excerpt, pretty sure Hoid wants to bring someone back from the Beyond, not reassemble ol' Ado.

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We have not heard why Adonalsium was Shattered, nor have we confirmed that Hoid or indeed anyone wants to reform it. In my opinion, the likely reason for the Shattering was for Change. We know that there are elements of Adonalsium that oppose and encourage change sufficiently that they balance out (Ruin Preservation, Dominion Cultivation). It's entirely possible that in a world where Adonalsium is whole there is no "Change".

If Hoid or the original Shardbearers Shattered Adonalsium for this reason, there's no reason for them to put It back together. More likely, Hoid seeks to retain the separate nature of the Shards whilst holding back the ugly nature of the ugly parts of Adonalsium's nature: perhaps he wishes Cultivation, Preservation, Devotion and Honor to succeed where Dominion, Odium and Ruin are held back or balanced, so that the Cosmere as a whole becomes the ideal home of humanity (presumably he is "human" though it is never confirmed whether before the Shattering there even was such a thing, though given Preservation (and Ruin) based their humans off the original Yoleni this is a fair bet).

Whilst I adore Wheel of Time, it adheres to the ultimate in tropes (which it in part created), and the cyclic nature does not fit the arc of Brandon Sanderon's current Cosmere (rightly so).

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15 minutes ago, Odium's_Shard said:

(presumably he is "human" though it is never confirmed whether before the Shattering there even was such a thing, though given Preservation (and Ruin) based their humans off the original Yoleni this is a fair bet).

Is human is stretching it. He was human at one point, but according to Sandman, he really isn't anymore.

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Just now, Odium's_Shard said:

Does the allegory speak anything to whether Hoid would have the best for humanity in mind?

Hoid has the best for Hoid in mind. He's searching for a way to do a certain thing involving someone precious to him (a mentor of some kind, the one who was originally named Hoid) who died, but as to what that way is and how it would affect the rest of the humans is unclear.

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1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Hoid has the best for Hoid in mind. He's searching for a way to do a certain thing involving someone precious to him (a mentor of some kind, the one who was originally named Hoid) who died, but as to what that way is and how it would affect the rest of the humans is unclear.

That's fair, I think it's sufficient at least then to say that all protagonists that aren't Hoid have humanity in mind, and hence it's important to determine whether Restoration of Adonalsium would appeal to them. Though, given humanity at large isn't aware of Adonalsium, this is probably moot for the plot as it stands.

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34 minutes ago, Odium's_Shard said:

We have not heard why Adonalsium was Shattered, nor have we confirmed that Hoid or indeed anyone wants to reform it. In my opinion, the likely reason for the Shattering was for Change. We know that there are elements of Adonalsium that oppose and encourage change sufficiently that they balance out (Ruin Preservation, Dominion Cultivation). It's entirely possible that in a world where Adonalsium is whole there is no "Change".

I like this theory, but in a world where there is no change, how could it be possible for people to group up and cause a change such as killing a god? 

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22 minutes ago, Gray to said:

I like this theory, but in a world where there is no change, how could it be possible for people to group up and cause a change such as killing a god? 

Not to mention that the in-between of preserving and destroying is not stasis. We haven't seen shards with intents related to making things how they used to be so if Adnoalsium was causing stasis it wasn't due to it's intent. Furthermore actions like letting most humanoids interbreed (singers and humans can mate) seem to also indicate stasis was not Adnoalsium's goal.

As for recombining the remaining shards that seems unlikely. Even if some want the shards reunited their will be many who oppose granting all that power to just one person who they probably don't really support, i think most shards would think this way.
I don't think we can really predict how the cosmere will end or even if it really will end. Personally i think something momentous will happen to close off the world for us but i don't think the cosmere will be resolved. Wrapping EVERYTHING up seems boring and wasteful.
Hopefully we won't know what happens till we read the conclusive book.

 

Edited by Rossamund
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47 minutes ago, Gray to said:

I like this theory, but in a world where there is no change, how could it be possible for people to group up and cause a change such as killing a god? 

Similar to @Rossamund I think that a world where God/the Cosmere cannot effect change doesn't speak for a group of humanoids. That they existed likely indicates that Adonalsium had sacrificed some Investiture in making them, or they drew it from him. That they succeeded can be seen as a "fluctuation", and likely that there was a counter-group to those that sought the Shattering but through this "fluctuation" He was Shattered. This does not mean that Adonalsium or the Cosmere at large was not balanced against change.

Edited by Odium's_Shard
Missed a "not"
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I would like to point out that Adonalsium has extreme similarities to the Hebrew Adonai, which is God.

In other words, Brandon could theoretically say "This was God's Grand Plan, where each of you played this part. The struggles, hardships, trials or testing circumstances you went through have only resulted in making a better you."

Look at it this way. Each Shardworld is slowly but steadily gaining some specialisation. Ashyn for example, has advanced medicine. Roshar is dealing with morality. Scadrial has good metallurgy/technology. The shattering has enabled life to explore each and every type of power in a much more in-depth manner than would have otherwise been possible.

So the Shards in this case are a misdirection. We focus on them, while all along, its all about the stories. Some shards may just remain splintered. Others may remain merged. The end of the Cosmere could just be like... the end of the dark ages, and the beginning of a new dawn for life in the Cosmere.

Regardless of any of this, I agree. Unless done in some very special manner, ending at the reforging of Adonalsium is just too obvious, a little too... cliche? It would only serve to make the whole a little less interesting.

Edited by TheFoxQR
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8 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

n other words, Brandon could theoretically say "This was God's Grand Plan, where each of you played this part. The struggles, hardships, trials or testing circumstances you went through have only resulted in making a better you."

Look at it this way. Each Shardworld is slowly but steadily gaining some specialisation. Ashyn for example, has advanced medicine. Roshar is dealing with morality. Scadrial has good metallurgy/technology. The shattering has enabled life to explore each and every type of power in a much more in-depth manner than would have otherwise been possible.

This sounds alot like "The One" from roshar. 

Like everyone is eventually going to join the one and all are just experiencing different things that lead to the collective knowledge. I like this Idea except we know that Adonalism didn't give himself up for sacrifice. He didn't want to be split so humankind can create all these different things and have different focuses. He was killed and shattered. There wasn't a great plan. He was presumably suprise attacked and ripped into 17 pieces. (the 17th residing on a popular online forum) and the power taken for the purposes of those that killed him.

Good idea tho

 

 

8 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

I would like to point out that Adonalsium has extreme similarities to the Hebrew Adonai, which is God.

There is a WoB that states that this is where Brandon got the name for Adonalsium. He based the original name off of Adonai. It was purposeful as Adonlsium was pretty much God (proper noun)

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21 minutes ago, Lightblood said:

. I like this Idea except we know that Adonalism didn't give himself up for sacrifice. He didn't want to be split so humankind can create all these different things and have different focuses. He was killed and shattered. There wasn't a great plan. He was presumably suprise attacked

We do NOT know this. All we know is that he/she/it was shattered. 

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19 minutes ago, Lightblood said:

WERE YOU LISTENING?!?!? Adonalism was not working with the people who shattered him. Nor did he help them shatter himself. He isn't suicidal


Read this page before responding

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Adonalsium

He's not saying that Adonalsium was working with the people nor that he helped to Shatter himself. He said that all we know is that a previous plot failed, we don't know why, but it's not necessarily because Adonalsium fought against it. There's just no solid evidence one way or another.

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3 hours ago, Lightblood said:

@zenbossanova 

Dude, I don't know how else to say this, your wrong, I have no idea why you think we don't already know this, Please do a little research before posting in the future

Coppermind

"At least one plot to destroy Adonalsium failed, though the details of this remain an enigma." - Proof that Adonalsium is fighting against being destroyed and that people are actively trying to kill him

"Adonalsium's opposition, or some subset of their number, eventually put their final plan into action on Yolen.[3][40] The group included Hoid[41] and, likely, Frost,[13] in addition to those who would become the original vessels of the sixteen Shards. Few details are known concerning what transpired at the Shattering. The Shattering occurred as a single event[42] at which Adonalsium was indeed killed,[7], and consequently its power was divided into sixteen equal portions." 

 

Let me once again say it, They KILLED Adonalism, "Adonalsium's opposition", This does not denote that he is willingly giving himself up for the cosmere. His enemies killed him and splintered his power.

Coppermind is there for everyone, it doesn't move. Please do some research first next time

Uhhh. This is awkward.

We have multiple WoBs stating that Adonalsium's Shattering was intentional. We have WoBs stating that people opposed Adonalsium. We have zero WoBs correlating those two things. Attach popular saying about correlation - causation.

The only thing I want to add is this - We know certain shards are better at seeing the future than others, and it has to do with the particular intent of the Shard itself. So if Cultivation can see x distance far, and preservation can see y, what about someone holding them both? Is it additive, or exponential? Either way, what about someone who holds all of them?

I'm not implying the Adonalsium was omniscient, just that he would have been extremely good at seeing the future. We are talking about a being that was at least 16 times as powerful and expansive as any of the current Shards. How would you catch someone like that by surprise?

And last of all, I'm not saying Adonalsium was wanting to shatter. Just that if he didn't want to, I doubt anyone could have done anything about it.

That is all assuming Adonalsium was by nature like a super-Shard by current timeline standards. Could very well have been something very different.

 

Edit: I dug up an old comment I made a year ago on reddit, where I did some theory crafting on the nature of Adonalsium. I'll embed it here. I think it has some interesting ideas, and a lot of holes. Maybe you guys can make something out of it.

 

Edited by TheFoxQR
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On 2/7/2019 at 11:46 AM, TheFoxQR said:

We have multiple WoBs stating that Adonalsium's Shattering was intentional. We have WoBs stating that people opposed Adonalsium. We have zero WoBs correlating those two things. Attach popular saying about correlation - causation.

We don't?

Quote

imriel452 (Paraphrased)

I asked for "Info on why Adonalsium shattered".

Brandon Sanderson

Adonalsium Shattered because he was killed.

General Signed Books 2016 (Feb. 1, 2016)

We know who killed him... We just don't know why or how. 

As far as the failed plot to destroy Adonalsium... I'm still of the opinion that it's the same plot. 

Adonalsium is gone. Even if you shove all of the Shards back together your not getting the same thing... And considering Sazed predicament with a single shard, I think holding all 16 would make someone completely unable to act...

But I think the intents are a remnant of Adonalsium themselves. It wasn't destroyed, and the parts of it twist those who try to take them up.

They killed it... But they can't get rid of it. Because if Adonalsium had no Vessel as I believe, but developed as a part of the power, then unlike the shard deaths we've seen, there's no being to separate from the power. They are one and the same.  

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On 2/10/2019 at 1:44 PM, Calderis said:

We know who killed him... We just don't know why or how.

I know, and in every way, it does feel like he was killed by his opposition. I understand that it is very likely that they did, just that without an actual explicit WoB, I'm reluctant on making that connection.

The problem is also in the word "Opposition". What this means can change heavily depending on the very nature of Adonalsium. Was it an opposition that opposed what Adonalsium wanted? Did they oppose his existence? Did they oppose the fallout of his power? Did they oppose his ideology? Were they an all out war with him for a long time? Or did they just oppose him in one thing, once?

Hell, all of these aren't even mutually exclusive. The opposition could very well have been Adonalsium's own followers, or representatives of the people of Yolen, or any number of things.

 

On 2/10/2019 at 1:44 PM, Calderis said:

As far as the failed plot to destroy Adonalsium... I'm still of the opinion that it's the same plot. 

But I think the intents are a remnant of Adonalsium themselves. It wasn't destroyed, and the parts of it twist those who try to take them up.

Because if Adonalsium had no Vessel as I believe, but developed as a part of the power, then unlike the shard deaths we've seen, there's no being to separate from the power. They are one and the same. 

I'm with you here. It also fits nicely with all the subtle reverence it is treated with all the time. Also fits with Hoid's Gibbletish speech.

Another possible interpretation would be that Adonalsium couldn't prevent his own shattering because he was bound in some way. So he laid out some very intricate plan to return, and that is where Dalinar's "Unite them!" comes from. This could be possible if Ashynites were actual refugees from Yolen, giving Dalinar a possible Yolenite heritage. And Adonalsium being the big bad of the cosmere fits very well with Sanderson's "Set up expectations, then subvert them!" kind of writing.

If this is true, the cosmere could follow this arc -> Adonalsium forms the humans. For some reason he gets corrupted and starts strangling Yolen with the Fain life. In order to stop it, a group of people manage to trap him. Fast forward a bit, and Adonalsium seems to be breaking free. So they shatter him, knowing full well that the consequences on Yolen will be immense, and go their separate ways in order to keep his pieces as far away from each other as possible. But some pieces stick closer together. In case of preservation and ruin, it was less of an issue because of their polar intents. But on Roshar, the close proximity of three shards for so long has allowed Adonalsium's mind to slowly reform over the years (possibly from Tanavast's cognitive shadow) - causing the "Unite them!" thingy to happen. Something along these lines. I have had way too much coffee.

Edited by TheFoxQR
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