How is Edgli not worried

[Toaster Retribution]

Edgli is apparently not worried about Odium, despite the fact that he has killed three Shards, and despite her knowledge of who Rayse was before taking up Odium. How can she not be troubled? Does she have some kind of strategy or trick she can use on Odium if he comes for her?

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Edgli is apparently not worried about Odium, despite the fact that he has killed three Shards, and despite her knowledge of who Rayse was before taking up Odium. How can she not be troubled? Does she have some kind of strategy or trick she can use on Odium if he comes for her?

i think there can be a few rationales presented. We know already that Frost has a policy of non-intervention and has tried to convince Hoid to do the same. So I do not think it a stretch to think that Edgli may feel the same. Another option is Edgli could feel that Odium has only attacked Shards that broke their deal at the beginning. Shards that group together, or interfere with each other. So she could think that if she minds her own business she will be left alone, which would explain her hostility towards Hoid trying to meddle on her world. She wouldn't want to be "seen" with him, and considered a potential adversary. Finally as you said, another very valid possibility is she has an ace in the hole ready to play if he were to go for her. Personally I feel it may be a combination of some or all of the above I listed. 

[Gasper]

I think that Edgli's ace in the hole is the creation of type IV biochromatic entities. Sure, Azure's sword turned out ok, but we know that Nightblood can damage a shard a little bit. I do not think it would be a stretch to create more type IVs like Nightblood to weaken Odium enough for her or another shard under her instruction (Harmony) to splinter Odium. The Returned (armed with awakened weapons) can take care of what ever baddies Odium throws at Nalthis while Edgli takes out Odium.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Gasper said:

I think that Edgli's ace in the hole is the creation of type IV biochromatic entities. Sure, Azure's sword turned out ok, but we know that Nightblood can damage a shard a little bit. I do not think it would be a stretch to create more type IVs like Nightblood to weaken Odium enough for her or another shard under her instruction (Harmony) to splinter Odium. The Returned (armed with awakened weapons) can take care of what ever baddies Odium throws at Nalthis while Edgli takes out Odium.

Hmmm, interesting theory. Do you think Nightblood showing up on Roshar was intentional on Edgli's part? As kind of a warning to Odium? Like "see, this is what I arranged to get made, and it isn't even the final product. Watch yourself and stick to your own corner of the cosmere or else. We clear?"

[Weltall]

Edgli seems to be pretty good at future-sight, since the entire deal with the Returned revolves around giving them visions of the future and a purpose to try and fulfill when they go back. She's probably got some justified confidence that she can out-scry Odium if it becomes necessary. She's also got a lot of potential tools and she may be subtly playing the game even now, without looking like she's playing at all.

One more thing in her bag of potential tricks: Information and communication. Nalthis has an actual Cognitive customs agency that helps worldhoppers visiting the world, which means that Edgli has regular access to information from around the Cosmere and a source of potential messengers if she needs to send word to other worlds. That's a pretty big advantge to have.

[Gasper]

Most likely. Why else would a shard let such a powerful weapon leave their planet. I think it is more than just a warning to Odium, I think it is letting all the other shards know that Edgli is not to be messed with. Nightblood is the cosmere equivalent of a nuke, and letting it off world is Edgli's display of power. Sort of a MAD doctrine statement.

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Edgli seems to be pretty good at future-sight, since the entire deal with the Returned revolves around giving them visions of the future and a purpose to try and fulfill when they go back. She's probably got some justified confidence that she can out-scry Odium if it becomes necessary. She's also got a lot of potential tools and she may be subtly playing the game even now, without looking like she's playing at all.

One more thing in her bag of potential tricks: Information and communication. Nalthis has an actual Cognitive customs agency that helps worldhoppers visiting the world, which means that Edgli has regular access to information from around the Cosmere and a source of potential messengers if she needs to send word to other worlds. That's a pretty big advantge to have.

Good points on the future sight and information

14 minutes ago, Gasper said:

Most likely. Why else would a shard let such a powerful weapon leave their planet. I think it is more than just a warning to Odium, I think it is letting all the other shards know that Edgli is not to be messed with. Nightblood is the cosmere equivalent of a nuke, and letting it off world is Edgli's display of power. Sort of a MAD doctrine statement.

Hmmm. Not sure I am completely sold, but it does make a lot of sense especially combined with Weltall's points about her future sight and information network. 

[Quantus]

I agree with most of what's been said as equally reasonable possibilities.  I personally like to lean to her consciously if secretly meddling via the 5 Scholars and Nightblood, perhaps even having a hand in Spren reverse-engineering the Honorblades (Five Ideals being the cluebat there), it's also possible that she's simply a touch...Touched.  There are two different WOB that indicate say she's erratic, so she might not be a mastermind so much as just a bit crazy, explaining why she seems content to just leave Rayse doing his thing (or at least locked up and somebody else's problem).

 

 

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Enfeathered

Assuming that the events of the first Mistborn book took place on Nalthis instead, and especially considering the circumstances of Kelsier's passing and the events afterwards, would he have Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very interesting question. Endowment can be somewhat...erratic. I don't know, honestly. I'd have to think about it.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 6, 2015)

 

 

Quote

 

Trae [PENDING REVIEW]

Previously, you've revealed that the mechanism that determines the Returned on Nalthis is a decision of a sapient entity. Is the determination by which the entity that selects the recipient of a Divine Breath to come back as a Returned predicated on that recipient fulfilling some purpose in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, the question is, "Why does the entity that picks who Returns, why did they pick who they did?" And, your question kind of implies there's, like, specific tasks to fulfill. I'm gonna say, there aren't specifics, but there are certain things the entity is looking for...

Trae [PENDING REVIEW]

In the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. There are certain things that they are looking for. Now, let's just say this entity is not necessarily the most consistent of entities in the cosmere when it comes to making decisions like this. But there are certain things they are looking for.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

[Gasper]

If Edgli is erratic, then she might be prone to brinksmanship, which fits with my theory on why she let Nightblood go off-world.

[Jace21]

I don't buy the Nightblood theory, mainly due to the fact that as powerful as it is, Odiums physical war on Roshar seems to be an exception to the norm and Nightblood would be little/no use in a shard vs shard direct fight.

Endowment may be erratic due to difficulties with her intent, particularly with the Returned. She tries to "endow" following her own standards but if no suitable candidates present themselves she may be forced to compromise by her own power.

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I don't buy the Nightblood theory, mainly due to the fact that as powerful as it is, Odiums physical war on Roshar seems to be an exception to the norm and Nightblood would be little/no use in a shard vs shard direct fight.

Endowment may be erratic due to difficulties with her intent, particularly with the Returned. She tries to "endow" following her own standards but if no suitable candidates present themselves she may be forced to compromise by her own power.

Nightblood does kill the fused he "kills". As in they can't come back. And Odium knows this and this will come into play later. WoB. Will add when I pull it up. 

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
My question is not really a question, it's more of a theory. How Odium keeps the Fused around is more if he has them tied to his essence, so it's like he's essentially fishing them out of the Spiritual Realm and since their minds are left behind in the Cognitive Realm and their minds are *inaudible* damaged, because their spirits are separated and it just pulls them back.

I'm 100% convinced Nightblood did kill the thunderclast, because Nightblood consumes all investiture, that's something I asked you back at Barnes and Noble a couple years ago, during Christmas and you said your soul is investiture. So my thought is, that thunderclast isn't coming back any time soon.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
You are correct on that one.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
When I saw that, my thought was, "Yep, It's dead." Other people were like, "I don't know, will it come back?" Nope.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
I'll tell you this. They have not run into something like this before, and there will be ramifications of what happened there.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
That is fun to know.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
If you are used to death having no consequence, and suddenly your friend vanishes forever...

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah I, know I already thought of that. They're going to fight over Nightblood.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Mmm.

 

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So at the of [Oathbringer] how aware is Odium of what Nightblood is and can do?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Modestly. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Taking the sheath, that kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
He knows. I would say more than modestly, he is well aware.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Jace21]

15 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Nightblood does kill the fused he "kills". As in they can't come back. And Odium knows this and this will come into play later. WoB. Will add when I pull it up. 

I know Nightblood can kill fused, but unless Odium is going to take the Fused with him to Nalthis then it doesn't matter.

Nightblood isn't dangerous to Odium, just his minions, and it seems likely that his usual splintering method doesn't require minions, limiting Nightbloods utility in a direct Shard v Shard conflict.

I also thing the "ramifications" are Stormlight only ones when the Fused realise they can die, but its open for interpretation.

[Pathfinder]

20 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I know Nightblood can kill fused, but unless Odium is going to take the Fused with him to Nalthis then it doesn't matter.

Nightblood isn't dangerous to Odium, just his minions, and it seems likely that his usual splintering method doesn't require minions, limiting Nightbloods utility in a direct Shard v Shard conflict.

I also thing the "ramifications" are Stormlight only ones when the Fused realise they can die, but its open for interpretation.

The fused are animated by Odium's investiture. He literally tells one that if it doesn't do what he tells it to, he will reclaim that which he gave to give it unending life. By killing the fused permanently, nightblood is destroying the investiture that odium gave of itself to animate. Odium does not like breaking off his power (WoB), so to me any force that could destroy what power he sheared off in an effort to escape and prevent him from reclaiming it is a viable threat. 

[Ripheus23]

Edgli loves memes so she's always saying

Keep Calm

and

Remember

My magic system created Nightblood

so she's all like, "And that was in an early Cosmere story, so guess what's gonna happen when I reappear in MBE4..."

[Stark]

Its funny, I had not seen this, and started a thread along similar lines in the Warbreaker section yesterday.  We know, both from Warbreaker, and the Warbreaker annotations that Endowment picks who returns, gives them a vision of the future where they may be able to play a part to help or prevent the outcome.  Se gives them the choice to return, and if they accept, she wipes the memory (Paradox prevention?) and sets them loose.  As they approach their goal, they maybe get some visions.  Or maybe they are driven in a direction from the first (Blushweaver for example).

 

And all five of the scholars were returned who became some of the most skilled and most influential beings of their time.  And they created Nightblood - who is being followed by one of the remaining scholars, and a descendant of the returned, on Roshar.  While Brandon has not given us much info on how skilled Edgli is at future-sight compared to other shards, she has to be medium to top tier in my mind if she can grant visions to those who Return before she offers them a Divine Breath.

 

So, in my mind, Edgli is playing the longest of games.  She may be erratic, but she has a goal.  And while she may not have known exactly how Nightblood would turn out, or the full Ramifications of his existence, I definitely think she was picking her Returned with the goal of creating something like Nightblood that would be in place in time for Odium's return to Roshar.

 

She definitely has skin in the game and has her finger on the scale.  Whose side of the scale is anyone's guess, but I have no doubt she is in the know and prodding events through the use of the players who carry her Investiture.

[Calderis]

Nightblood is not solely made of Endowment. 

Quote

Walin [PENDING REVIEW]

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

And regardless of some of the things people have tried to say, I think it's fairly clear how @Walin meant it.

Combine that with this wonderful older WoB of Blight's

Quote

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

And the fact that Nightblood has been what he is from the beginning, and I believe that he was accidentally created as a mixed Splinter of Endowment and Ruin drawing in a naturally existing pocket of Ruin on Nalthis (much like what Patji would have been to autonomy before she did... Whatever she did to it) and in response Endowment became more heavily involved in Nightblood's creation in an attempt to balance things out, because she was more  directly involved than normal. 

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OrangeJedi [PENDING REVIEW]

When Nightblood created, was Endowment involved in any way more than normal?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Good question, you qualified that the right way! I would say yes, but maybe not to the extent you're thinking.

OrangeJedi [PENDING REVIEW]

Normal being using Endowment's Investiture to Awaken. There's something special.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I would say, there is something special.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

All of that together, and I think we have plenty of reasons why we won't see any more Nightblood's, even as we see more type IV's. Like this WoB says, making more is theoretically possible... 

Quote

Megasif [PENDING REVIEW]

In London I wanted to ask about Nightblood. The way he is Invested, is that a one-off-case kind of thing, or is it possible to do another of that level?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It was really bizarre, and I will explain it eventually and that will let you know why. It's theoretically possible to do almost anything so it's theoretically possible to do what he did but it'd be very hard.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

But I think most of the time we're gong to see normal type IV's. Just kind of nuts that the first was an anomaly. 

As to the OP... 

I don't think there is a good reason. I think Edgli seems arrogant and isolationist, and has her head in the sand. 

[Use the Falchion]

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:33 PM, Pathfinder said:

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So at the of [Oathbringer] how aware is Odium of what Nightblood is and can do?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Modestly. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Taking the sheath, that kind of thing?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
He knows. I would say more than modestly, he is well aware.

That just makes me excited at the idea of Odium sending an army of both Fused and regular Voidbringers to try and take Nightblood from Szeth, not realizing he's trained in all the surges and he just goes H.A.M. Or alternatively, he pulls Nightblood a little out of the sheath and waits. 

[goody153]

Edgli could be putting a front of being tough in the letter. Inside she could be worried that Hoid is right about Odium. 

I wouldn't count shards or anybody really to be really truthful all the times. Even Sazed's letter to Hoid was abit PR-ish way of communicating. He said he wants to talk to Hoid right but he could've been tricking hoid into talking but he's really gonna capture and torture information out of him(ok this is not true for sazed but you get what i mean)

Besides Nightblood and Vasher on Roshar ? Both are giant splinters of endownment. Those are definitely not a coincidence despite her claiming to stay away from other shards.

Edited February 11, 2019 by goody153

[Jace21]

11 hours ago, goody153 said:

Besides Nightblood and Vasher on Roshar ? Both are giant splinters of endownment. Those are definitely not a coincidence despite her claiming to stay away from other shards.

It could definitely be a coincidence. Nightblood is more than just Endowment is likely only on Roshar because Vasher took him and Vasher himself just wanted more freely available investiture. Is it possible both were Endowment's plan? Yes. Are there perfectly reasonable alternate explanations, also yes.

[Quantus]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

Nightblood is not solely made of Endowment. 

And regardless of some of the things people have tried to say, I think it's fairly clear how @Walin meant it.

Combine that with this wonderful older WoB of Blight's

And the fact that Nightblood has been what he is from the beginning, and I believe that he was accidentally created as a mixed Splinter of Endowment and Ruin drawing in a naturally existing pocket of Ruin on Nalthis (much like what Patji would have been to autonomy before she did... Whatever she did to it) and in response Endowment became more heavily involved in Nightblood's creation in an attempt to balance things out, because she was more  directly involved than normal. 

All of that together, and I think we have plenty of reasons why we won't see any more Nightblood's, even as we see more type IV's. Like this WoB says, making more is theoretically possible... 

But I think most of the time we're gong to see normal type IV's. Just kind of nuts that the first was an anomaly. 

As to the OP... 

I don't think there is a good reason. I think Edgli seems arrogant and isolationist, and has her head in the sand. 

You know, Im curious if the additional involvement from Endowment could be the involvement of a Divine Breath, either the fact that he's eaten one (assuming Shashara was indeed a Returned like the other Scholars) or even a more direct instance of Endowment granting one to Nightblood directly in a similar process.

[goody153]

11 hours ago, Jace21 said:

It could definitely be a coincidence. Nightblood is more than just Endowment is likely only on Roshar because Vasher took him and Vasher himself just wanted more freely available investiture. Is it possible both were Endowment's plan? Yes. Are there perfectly reasonable alternate explanations, also yes.

Coincidence is very rare when shards are involved especially something like Nightblood which basically has Endownments involvement personally.

Hell they can sometimes plan for a person to be born like centuries ahead(if simple things like keeping Rashek's nostalgia for a millenia is planned by a Shard then stuff like having a splinter outside the system is more likely a planned action). Having 2 splinters offworld in a very precarious place does not sound as coincidence to me

[Jace21]

9 hours ago, goody153 said:

Coincidence is very rare when shards are involved especially something like Nightblood which basically has Endownments involvement personally.

Hell they can sometimes plan for a person to be born like centuries ahead(if simple things like keeping Rashek's nostalgia for a millenia is planned by a Shard then stuff like having a splinter outside the system is more likely a planned action). Having 2 splinters offworld in a very precarious place does not sound as coincidence to me

That's fine, it can not seem a coincidence to you while possibly being one for me.

Brandon qualifies the WoB saying Endowments involvement is more than using her investiture (breaths) but "not to the extent you're thinking", so it's still pretty vague. 

And while I agree that the creation of Vasher/Nightblood are unlikely to be coincidence, it could easily be conincidence that they are on Roshar, which is what I was saying. Even Shardic future sight is flawed and considering the Returned don't always do what they're supposed to anyway, she clearly isn't perfect and forseeing hundreds of years in the future will be even more difficult.

[goody153]

15 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

That's fine, it can not seem a coincidence to you while possibly being one for me.

Brandon qualifies the WoB saying Endowments involvement is more than using her investiture (breaths) but "not to the extent you're thinking", so it's still pretty vague. 

And while I agree that the creation of Vasher/Nightblood are unlikely to be coincidence, it could easily be conincidence that they are on Roshar, which is what I was saying. Even Shardic future sight is flawed and considering the Returned don't always do what they're supposed to anyway, she clearly isn't perfect and forseeing hundreds of years in the future will be even more difficult.

It isn't 100% sure but shards have everything too planned that it is highly unlikely to be coincidence.

And shardic vision only becomes flawed once other shards are involved in contesting the future. Alone ? It is 100% gonna work but when other shards are involved tangentially it will become uncertain.

It basically works the same way with Atium combat. When atium user faces a none-atium user they can predict 100% but against another atium user it becomes weird and uncertain (this has a wob but i can't find it .. i'll try to edit tomorrow as it is 10pm here and i have work really early)

[Calderis]

24 minutes ago, goody153 said:

And shardic vision only becomes flawed once other shards are involved in contesting the future. Alone ? It is 100% gonna work but when other shards are involved tangentially it will become uncertain.

Where does this idea come from? Preservation plan is definitely not the norm

[Jace21]

24 minutes ago, goody153 said:

And shardic vision only becomes flawed once other shards are involved in contesting the future. Alone ? It is 100% gonna work but when other shards are involved tangentially it will become uncertain.

Do you have a source for this? Atium works as well as it does (well but imperfectly as we see with Vin and Zane) because it is only a few seconds in the future.

While intervention by someone else will influence things (not always a Shard, ses Renarin), it doesn't mean Shardic future sight is otherwise perfect. Honor himslrf mentions how difficult it is to see any distance into the future and we are talking hundreds of years since Vasher and Nighblood were created.

Even if you're right that only another Shard makes things uncertain, that is exactly what you're saying. You're saying that despite the involvement of 3 other Shards on Roshar, Endowment has somehow still seen the future with enough detail to know how and when to intervene and with which tools (Vasher and Nightblood) hundreds of years in advance? I don't buy it.