Brightness Jencee

Kaladin, Amaram, and the Sons of Honor

10 posts in this topic

I am rereading WoK(again) and something jumped out at me from Kaladin's flashback where Amaram killed his squad and gave him the slave brand. This may be old news to y'all, but it was new to me...

“Why?” Amaram said. “Why did you reject it? I have to know.” “I don’t want it, sir.” “Yes, but why?” Because it would make me one of you. Because I can’t look at that weapon and not see the faces of the men its wielder slaughtered so offhandedly. Because … because … “I can’t really answer that, sir,” Kaladin said, sighing." (underlines mine)

It appears to me in this part that what Amaram really wants to know is if Kaladin is a surgebinder. I think that the Sons of Honor know more about the knights radiant than we give them credit for. The several hours spent in Amaram's office before this scene were probably spent arguing about what to do with Kaladin, kill him, recruit him, or what.  We don't yet know the extent of King Gavilar's progression toward Bondsmith, but if the Stormfather had revealed to him a fraction of what he has revealed to Dalinar, then Gavilar would have known about the nahel bond and passed that information along to Amaram. They probably were keeping an eye out for the appearance of possible radiants in order to confirm if they were on the right track. Now,here was a darkeyed spearman who, not only survived an encounter with a full shardbearer, but also killed him and then, for some totally unfathomable reason, refused to take the shards. Had Kaladin answered his true thoughts, confirming he wans't Radiant, Amaram probably would have killed him along with the rest of squad. Had Kaladin aswered anything that hinted toward a possible nahel bond forming, Amaram may have recruited him into the Sons of Honor where he could keep tabs on him and then swore him to secrecy. Kaladin's answer of "I can't really say" left Amaram in the position of "I can't leave him around to blab that that I took his Shardplate and blade can't kill him if he is forming a nahel bond and thus further delay the desolation." As a result, Amaram gives him the slave brand to descredit anything he might say and sends him off to his fate, whatever that may be. Amaram probably figured that he'd never see Kaladin again and, knowing he had covered his bases, promptly forgot about him.

Sorry if this has already been hashed out somewhere. I thought it was interesting, though. I'll keep blaming being new to the forums if I miss stuff, lol. What do y'all think? Am I just reading too much in to this?

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You might be on to something, maybe, maybe not. In my opinion, it could be that Amaram was so power hungry that turning down such a status symbol and indeed a source of power would have been unthinkable to him. You could have a point, though.

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I like this as a theory, it adds a little more depth to Amaram, gives him some more interesting motivations. I think he is fairly self serving and single minded in his goals so I don't really buy him sparing Kaladin out of mercy or nobility. If it furthered the cause of the Sons of Honor to kill Kaladin--and from his POV it would--Amaram would have totally killed him. I guess he might have felt guilt out of killing the man who saved his life, but he didn't hesitate with the other squad men at all and they were every bit as innocent as Kaladin. This is a cool explanation as to why he didn't. There are a lot of valid readings of the text, his character is open to interpretation, but I like this one!

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As far as I can tell the Sons of Honor were not looking for the Knights Radiant to return. In fact, if they really thought about the Knights at all I suspect that they would have run counter to their purpose. The Sons of Honor were looking to strengthen the Vorin Church by forcing the return of the Heralds. The Knights are considered a black eye of the Church, not an asset.

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That'd sure be more interesting than what we got for Amaram. Maybe someone could ask Brandon, since Amaram is dead now! He just seemed the whole time like he never really sees beyond his own nose - or in this case, his ideas for how the world should be. A darkeyed man refusing to accept a Shardblade he'd won goes against a lot of people's ideas for how the world should be and I kinda think anybody would raise eyebrows at it.

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I'm not sure Brandon will give us much on Amaram. He still has a part to play in Jasnah flashbacks and those aren't until book 10. So a decade or two from now

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10 hours ago, Brightness Jencee said:

I am rereading WoK(again) and something jumped out at me from Kaladin's flashback where Amaram killed his squad and gave him the slave brand. This may be old news to y'all, but it was new to me...

“Why?” Amaram said. “Why did you reject it? I have to know.” “I don’t want it, sir.” “Yes, but why?” Because it would make me one of you. Because I can’t look at that weapon and not see the faces of the men its wielder slaughtered so offhandedly. Because … because … “I can’t really answer that, sir,” Kaladin said, sighing." (underlines mine)

It appears to me in this part that what Amaram really wants to know is if Kaladin is a surgebinder. I think that the Sons of Honor know more about the knights radiant than we give them credit for. The several hours spent in Amaram's office before this scene were probably spent arguing about what to do with Kaladin, kill him, recruit him, or what.  We don't yet know the extent of King Gavilar's progression toward Bondsmith, but if the Stormfather had revealed to him a fraction of what he has revealed to Dalinar, then Gavilar would have known about the nahel bond and passed that information along to Amaram. They probably were keeping an eye out for the appearance of possible radiants in order to confirm if they were on the right track. Now,here was a darkeyed spearman who, not only survived an encounter with a full shardbearer, but also killed him and then, for some totally unfathomable reason, refused to take the shards. Had Kaladin answered his true thoughts, confirming he wans't Radiant, Amaram probably would have killed him along with the rest of squad. Had Kaladin aswered anything that hinted toward a possible nahel bond forming, Amaram may have recruited him into the Sons of Honor where he could keep tabs on him and then swore him to secrecy. Kaladin's answer of "I can't really say" left Amaram in the position of "I can't leave him around to blab that that I took his Shardplate and blade can't kill him if he is forming a nahel bond and thus further delay the desolation." As a result, Amaram gives him the slave brand to descredit anything he might say and sends him off to his fate, whatever that may be. Amaram probably figured that he'd never see Kaladin again and, knowing he had covered his bases, promptly forgot about him.

Sorry if this has already been hashed out somewhere. I thought it was interesting, though. I'll keep blaming being new to the forums if I miss stuff, lol. What do y'all think? Am I just reading too much in to this?

Interesting theory! I would also explain why Amaram kept saying during Thaylenah battle that he created Kaladin. If he suspected Kaladin to be a Surgebinder he could imagine that slavery will make him stronger and cause his abilities to manifest. Unlikely, though, but there is something to it :)

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I don’t think Amaram would have sent Kaladin away into possible death if he thought he was a Radiant. For several reasons:

1. Amaram wants glory. If he found a Radiant he would try to bring them into the Sons of Honor, take credit for it, and befriend the Radiant. 

2. If he thought Kaladin a Radiant, he should remember what he looked like. But he saw Kaladin several times without recognizing him in book two. 

3. Amaram genuinely wants to stop the Desolation, once it happens. Risking Kaladins death in slavery is directly counterproductive to this goal. 

It is an interesting idea, and I have never seen it before, but I doubt it, sadly.

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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I like this idea it makes alot more sense then amaram felt "guilt" and didn't kill Kaladin. It also makes more sense why amaram was telling Kaladin that he "forged" him when fighting in OB. It could be interepreted as I made you a soldier but if he suspected that he was forming a Nahel Bond then it could be more..." Maybe he realized when he saw Kaladin on the shattered plains that he must've been a KR and was actually afraid of him. Because when Kaladin shows up it says he sees fear in Amarams eyes. Why?!?!?! Amaram is a full shardbearer and has little to fear from Kaladin if he truely believed he was a just a dark eyed spearman.

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18 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

As far as I can tell the Sons of Honor were not looking for the Knights Radiant to return. In fact, if they really thought about the Knights at all I suspect that they would have run counter to their purpose. The Sons of Honor were looking to strengthen the Vorin Church by forcing the return of the Heralds. The Knights are considered a black eye of the Church, not an asset.

While it's never stated that the Sons of Honor desire the return of the Knights Radiant, just the Heralds, I think it can be assumed.  Even devout Vorins acknowledge that the Knights Radiant were once a force for good and aided the Heralds in the fight against the Voidbringers.  Indeed, I'm not sure how 10 people can possibly defeat an entire Voidbringer army alone.  

And Amaram couldn't have been too opposed to them - he was named leader of the refounded Knights Radiant, after all.  

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