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I'm on my 4th trip through OB now and I'm trying to keep my eye out for odd stuff. A part of chapter 38 got my brain juices bubbling. It's the scene at the end where the Stormfather has finished explaining to Dalinar and Navani about the Heralds betrayal. A Shin soldier walks into the cave where the Heralds left their blades.

"The man fell to his knees before the wonder of the abandoned Honor-blades. But a moment later, the man looked to Dalinar, and then spoke with the Almighty's voice. "Unite them".

Could Tanavast have been telling Dalinar to literally unite the Honor-blades? By this I mean, use his Bondsmith weirdness to merge them into one blade that grants all of the Surges and all of the intersections that would result from having them.

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@SwordNimiForPresident You know, I’ve never thought about it that way....

It wouldn’t surprise me if the end goal of SA was hidden in that scene in whichever book that vision first happened in.

Edited by StrikerEZ
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2 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@SwordNimiForPresident You know, I’ve never thought about it that way....

It wouldn’t surprise me if the end goal of SA was hidden in that scene in whichever book that vision first happened in.

According to Brandon, at the very least, the ending to SA is hidden somewhere in the first two books.

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Just now, RShara said:

According to Brandon, at the very least, the ending to SA is hidden somewhere in the first two books.

Yeah, that’s what I was referring to. I’m sure I’m completely wrong, but my new pet theory is that Dalinar (or someone) will unite the Honorblades, Dawnshards, and a lot of Honor’s Investiture from tons of spren and reforge Honor and Ascend. 

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That would require quite the chunk of Investiture, plus the Heralds would probably have to all be perma-dead, but yeah, that would be kind of fun to see, and if anyone could, it would be Dalinar, merger of Realms.

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11 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Could Tanavast have been telling Dalinar to literally unite the Honor-blades? By this I mean, use his Bondsmith weirdness to merge them into one blade that grants all of the Surges and all of the intersections that would result from having them.

Yeah, I noticed it too, just today re-read this chapter. I was also recently toying with the idea of uniting Heralds' divine attributes in one or two people.

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11 hours ago, RShara said:

According to Brandon, at the very least, the ending to SA is hidden somewhere in the first two books.

Quote

 

"Above silence, the illuminating storms—dying storms—illuminate the silence above."

Not sure what it means for the end of the series but this is what my money is on. 

That said, I like the theory. Could be something Dalinar has to do before reforming Honor. I don't know if it's super likely, but I do think the Honorblades in Shinovar need to be used in the plot somewhere, right now they're just sitting there... 

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I think this is possible. In fact, Brandon RAFOed a related question:

mooglefrooglian

Could Honor have made an Honorblade granting all the Surges at once, rather than just two? If so, why didn't he do that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

I believe what you say has a high possibility. There's also a theory that says that Honorblades grant all of ten surges. I'm not quite convinced of that one, though

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33 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

There's also a theory that says that Honorblades grant all of ten surges. I'm not quite convinced of that one, though

Can you explain more about this theory that Honorblades grant all the Surges?  I don't remember any indication that this is the case.  

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59 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

I think this is possible. In fact, Brandon RAFOed a related question:

mooglefrooglian

Could Honor have made an Honorblade granting all the Surges at once, rather than just two? If so, why didn't he do that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015)

 

I believe what you say has a high possibility. There's also a theory that says that Honorblades grant all of ten surges. I'm not quite convinced of that one, though

RAFO isn't a confirmation, though?

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"You've trained with all ten Surges?" Sigzil said to Szeth in amazement.

"Yes. My people have long had nine of the ten Honorblades, until the Blade of Nin, who you call Nalan, disappeared. But even with the eight we have, all ten Surges can be used."

"Amazing!" said Sigzil. "Can you hold more than two Surges at once, then?" Szeth boggled, so he continued. "Wield multiple Honorblades," Sigzil suggested. "Strap all the Honorblades to yourself, and gain all ten Surges, most of them doubled up."

"I'm sorry, Worldsinger-nimi," Szeth eventually replied. "You are obviously very knowledgeable about this, and know things that none of us would ever think to try. How could we be so foolish as not to have even attempted to hold two Honorblades at the same time, or to see if merely touching all of them --"

"Shut it," Sigzil growled. Then he cocked his head. "Do you... Feel a strange sense like we are echoing a conversation from another place and time?*"

 

 

*Edited to add: because this whole thing is a parody/reference to a nearly identical exchange (but based on different magical items and systems) between two characters in another Cosmere work, The Bands of Mourning (from Mistborn Era 2)... Sorry if I confused people in the SA forum who haven't also read that work

Edited by robardin
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28 minutes ago, robardin said:

"You've trained with all ten Surges?" Sigzil said to Szeth in amazement.

"Yes. My people have long had nine of the ten Honorblades, until the Blade of Nin, who you call Nalan, disappeared. But even with the eight we have, all ten Surges can be used."

"Amazing!" said Sigzil. "Can you hold more than two Surges at once, then?" Szeth boggled, so he continued. "Wield multiple Honorblades," Sigzil suggested. "Strap all the Honorblades to yourself, and gain all ten Surges, most of them doubled up."

"I'm sorry, Worldsinger-nimi," Szeth eventually replied. "You are obviously very knowledgeable about this, and know things that none of us would ever think to try. How could we be so foolish as not to have even attempted to hold two Honorblades at the same time, or to see if merely touching all of them --"

"Shut it," Sigzil growled. Then he cocked his head. "Do you... Feel a strange sense like we are echoing a conversation from another place and time?"

All the more reason for them to be United.

Mistborn stuff.

Spoiler

We could have a Rosharan Bands of Morning situation.

 

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Where can I find that conversation between Sigzil an Szeth?

5 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Can you explain more about this theory that Honorblades grant all the Surges?  I don't remember any indication that this is the case.  

I've read it on Reddit some time ago. It was based on that WoB I posted above. IIRC, it was also based on the fact, stated by Brandon, that perception affects magic in the Cosmere. The same way Szeth needed 10 heartbeats to summon the Honorblade because he thought he needed them, applies to the Honorblades granting only 2 surges to people used to the fact of being allowed only 2. But, as I said, I don't think this is the case.

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2 hours ago, Luinedhel said:

Where can I find that conversation between Sigzil an Szeth?

8 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Book 4, probably. Prank'd ya

Edited by Invocation
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40 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

Where can I find that conversation between Sigzil an Szeth?

Read Bands of Morning.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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56 minutes ago, Luinedhel said:

Where can I find that conversation between Sigzil an Szeth?

Um, sorry, I made that up as a reference to a nearly identical exchange about a different set of magical artifacts in The Bands of Mourning. I hoped the lack of a quote box of attribution was enough of a clue in case someone hadn't read that other work... Oops.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

Um, sorry, I made that up as a reference to a nearly identical exchange about a different set of magical artifacts in The Bands of Mourning. I hoped the lack of a quote box of attribution was enough of a clue in case someone hadn't read that other work... Oops.

Sorry, I didn't read any Wax & Wayne era books... Yet.

Edited by Luinedhel
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13 hours ago, Luinedhel said:

I've read it on Reddit some time ago. It was based on that WoB I posted above. IIRC, it was also based on the fact, stated by Brandon, that perception affects magic in the Cosmere. The same way Szeth needed 10 heartbeats to summon the Honorblade because he thought he needed them, applies to the Honorblades granting only 2 surges to people used to the fact of being allowed only 2. But, as I said, I don't think this is the case.

I mean, I guess anything is possible, but it would be pretty strange for neither the Shin nor the Heralds to be aware of that.  

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They probably could use more than one Honorblade at a time, but I think there would be consequences.  Even if you only hold five - the minimum you need to hold all 10 surges.  The first time Syl sees Szeth with the Windrunner blade, she is horrified, because it gives power, but with out the safety and limitations of the Nahel bond.  It is more dangerous, and less efficient with Stormlight.

 

So there is a good chance that for every Honorblade you hold, the risk is magnified, and the efficiency is reduced.  Worse still, if that is an exponential curve, not linear.  You likely end up in a situation were you have all the power, but no control or light retention due to the multiple 'hacks' into the system.

 

Closest we have for comparison is Amaram when he swallowed Yelig-Nar.  He got all ten surges, but seemed to have so little control that he mainly fought with his swords, and the surgebinding seemed to be mostly reflexive.  And it seemed to accelerate his corruption.

 

So my bet is that someone can use multiple honorblades at once.  But just like the spren are not comfortable/happy with the idea of someone binding multiple spren, I feel that using multiple blades is prohibitively dangerous and has sever negative consequences for the user's body and spirit-web.

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17 minutes ago, Stark said:

So my bet is that someone can use multiple honorblades at once.  But just like the spren are not comfortable/happy with the idea of someone binding multiple spren, I feel that using multiple blades is prohibitively dangerous and has sever negative consequences for the user's body and spirit-web.

I’d have to disagree fundamentally with this take as Honor would not have built that caveat into the blades to be wielded by his top generals, and the blades are not hacks, but the original system that the spren based their orders on, but that’s beside the point because if you are unable to combine the swords, I don’t think you would even be able to use all of the surges at once because I’m pretty sure you can only use the surges of a blade you’re carrying at that moment ie it can’t be dismissed, but I may be misremembering that.

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48 minutes ago, Kramerfarve said:

I’m pretty sure you can only use the surges of a blade you’re carrying at that moment ie it can’t be dismissed, but I may be misremembering that.

You may be right about the one blade at a time restriction. I honestly don't know how it works, I can only hope to see that later. 

 

But you can definitely use the surges of a dismissed blade that you have in your possession.  The third Szeth Interlude in Way of Kings, I think it is the third.  Anyway, he goes to kill a king on Mr. T's orders, only to find it is a trap, and he is stuck in a room with a bunch of noble bystanders, two full shardbearers and the king with a blade.  In his anger at the king for sacrificing his people to trap Szeth, he dismisses the Honorblade and proceeds to beat both Shardbearers using only Surgebinding.

 

So you can definitely use the surges of a dismissed Honorblade.

Edited by Stark
Wrong 'two'
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1 hour ago, Stark said:

So you can definitely use the surges of a dismissed Honorblade.

Thanks, I was wondering what I had forgotten about.

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Have we ever seen anyone Bond more than one (dead) shardblade?  The Honorblades form what seems like a relatively similar bond in the sense that it's shallower than a full Radiant Nahel bond (which is why they are less efficient in their stormlight usage).  I cant think of any instance where a person has two normal shardblades, which could be a real limitation or could simply be that it's highly wasteful from a tactical standpoint. 

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3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Have we ever seen anyone Bond more than one (dead) shardblade?  The Honorblades form what seems like a relatively similar bond in the sense that it's shallower than a full Radiant Nahel bond (which is why they are less efficient in their stormlight usage).  I cant think of any instance where a person has two normal shardblades, which could be a real limitation or could simply be that it's highly wasteful from a tactical standpoint. 

While we haven't seen anyone do it in the books, there's no limit to the number of Blades you can have:

Quote

Questioner

Is there a limit to how many Shardblades you can have? Be bonded to?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, not really. There are some things that can limit bound that.. I can imagine people have a lot. In the original draft of The Way of Kings (2002) Amaram had two. And so, it's definitely possible to have multiples, and I had not thought of someone trying to bond every Shardblade. 

Questioner

So that means you can be bonded to more than one spren.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, those Shardblades... Can you be bonded to more than one spren? That question's answer is also yes. Potentially. But there is a much harder limit on that.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)
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Great idea!  In fact, I wonder if the 10 Honorblades recombined could function as a key to attune someone (and along with the investiture in the highstorm) to ascend and take control of the remnants of the Honor shard.  

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