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Can Susebron and Siri have kids now?

The Tenth Pancake

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The Tenth Pancake

The Tenth Pancake

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So I've been thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Breath from a Returned heals you right? So since Lightsong gave his Breath to Susebron, does that mean that he could possibly be able to have kids with Siri now? The royal locks had to have come from somewhere, so maybe has this happened before? Can Siri have a kid with Susebron now? Hmm...

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Shqueeves

Shqueeves

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3 minutes ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

I think it has to do with something about how much Investiture an individual has. Anyone ever notice that Vin never got pregnant, nor any Elantrian? 

That's my theory anyway.

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17th Shard

Are there forms of birth control on Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there are. Witness, Vin and Elend not getting pregnant across several years.

17th Shard

Right. It's just not really mentioned in the books.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I stay away from that intentionally. There are a lot of things I just didn't discuss due to the the feel of that book.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

Given that Elantrians can make others pregnant, it isn't outside of plausibility that they can become pregnant

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RShara

RShara

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13 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

Do they?  the new godking doesn't have to be the child of the current one, they get a new one whenever they come across a baby that returns.  The priests know the method of awakening wihtout speaking a command, so they can teach the godking to transfer his breaths, but do we have reason to believe they know how a returned can reproduce?

Yep. Brandon mentioned it in the annotations for Warbreaker. The priests take a baby Returned as a sign that it's time to change God-Kings, but that baby Returned isn't necessarily the next God-King--they prefer that the next God-King be the actual child of the previous one.

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Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-Four

Siri and Susebron Talk about How the Next God King is Created

Siri's impulse here—that the next God King might not really be the son of the current one—is a good one. She's actually right, though there are a lot of other things in this conversation she's wrong about.

It is possible for a Returned to have a child. Vo, the First Returned, did it. The God King isn't special in that he can do it; any of the Returned could, but it requires some special knowledge that—I'm afraid—I'll have to keep secret until the sequel. Suffice it to say that the priests know how it is done.

The problem is, they aren't always able to get this to work. Sometimes, they have to do what Siri guessed—replace the God King with an infant Returned. Infant Returns happen very infrequently. It's more rare than an adult Returning, so there is something sound to the Hallandren reasoning that you have to do something heroic in order to Return. (That's not true, but it is more sound a doctrine than Siri thinks it is.)

The God King's priests take an infant Returning as a sign that it's time to change God Kings. At that point, they choose a wife for the God King and hope that she'll be able to conceive the next God King. They'd much, much rather that the God King be the literal child of the previous God King. (Susebron wasn't, however. And his mother was indeed his mother, a poor merchant's wife from far northern Hallandren.)

Now, an infant has indeed Returned. The priests see this as a major vindication of their faith, as they made the wedding contract with Idris twenty years ago and now, just when the marriage was to happen, an infant Returned. The problem is, now they've got to push Siri to get pregnant, because they're on a deadline. They don't want to have to replace the God King with this infant; they'd rather use his own child. Hence the push for her to have a child.

But if she doesn't, they'll go with plan B. Note that there's not, in fact, any danger to her either way, no matter what Bluefingers says. She and Susebron, following the change in power, would have been taken to one of the isles in the middle of the Inner Sea and kept in a lavish lifestyle as long as they lived.

Warbreaker Annotations (March 1, 2011)
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Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifty-Five

Treledees Almost Tells Siri How to Pass On the God King's Breath

We get to see more of Siri taking charge here. In this tense situation, a lot of others would have been reduced to hysterics, but she's come into her own, taking command, trying to get the information she needs.

Treledees lies to her here about two things. First off, he does know how a God King can have a child, but he knows that the secret is also held by a secure group of priests on the islands. He doesn't think letting Siri in on that one for now is a good idea. But he does want to pass on how to get Susebron's Breaths away from him, should it become necessary. He knows that those need to be passed on, even if the God King does have a child. That's the greater secret, but the one that needs to be known to Siri. Those Breaths cannot die with Susebron.

So, anyway, he's lying about the God King not being able to have a child. (Or at least he sidesteps it. He says that the God King can't sire a child, which is true unless certain steps are taken. He also says that he doesn't know how the First Returned bore a child, which is true—he doesn't know for certain if the First Returned used the same method that Treledees knows. He's also sidestepping the fact that he does believe that the blood of the First Returned flows in the veins of the royal Idrian line.)

So why not bring this up in the book? Well, I learned in Elantris that it's easy to overtwist an ending by having too many reveals. This is a very small point, and there is good rationalization for why Treledees doesn't let on what he knows. So I felt it was better to let the story stand as is, without delving into this.

Of course, there is a hint in the text about it—or at least a question. If they depended only on a Returned child taking Susebron's place, then why were they worried about Siri having sex with Susebron? They didn't need her to sleep with him unless they expected that sex to do something.

I'm sorry to leave this issue a mystery, and I'm even more sorry to not explain how Susebron can give away his Breaths. It's not important to this book, and so I felt that having Treledees give the explanation here would just bog things down. I'd rather wait until a sequel, where I detail the magic system in a more complete form, to give you these explanations.

That leaves us with the cliché of someone who almost passes on information, then dies. As I said, I am sorry to do this. I nearly didn't put it in, but I felt it very important to include something that let you know that the priests did have a way to get those Breaths.

Note that Treledees is not lying about letting Susebron live out his life with Siri in peace. They have allowed previous God Kings to do that, once they had a successor in place.

Warbreaker Annotations (June 22, 2011)

 

Edited by RShara
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Invocation

+Invocation

Posted
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Just now, Dunkum said:

Do they?  the new godking doesn't have to be the child of the current one, they get a new one whenever they come across a baby that returns.  The priests know the method of awakening wihtout speaking a command, so they can teach the godking to transfer his breaths, but do we have reason to believe they know how a returned can reproduce?

Yes we do, since some God Kings have had children after they retire. (The footnote is the important bit here)

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Locke219

Can Returned have children? If so, who was the first Returned to do so?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to have to RAFO that one because it's a big RAFO question for the world. In-world, it is believed both that they cannot and that they can. Mythology speaks of it happening, yet many Returned by their own experiment have not been able to have children.

Footnote: Brandon does confirm in the annotations for Warbreaker that it is possible for Returned to have children, but there are certain requirements that are not currently known.
Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

 

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Kobold King

Kobold King

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2 minutes ago, AxeliustheGreat said:

I think it has to do with something about how much Investiture an individual has. Anyone ever notice that Vin never got pregnant, nor any Elantrian? 

That's my theory anyway.

 

Apparently the Lord Ruler had children at some point, so this seems unlikely to me. Who has more Investiture than the Lord rusting Ruler?

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Invocation

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5 minutes ago, goody153 said:

Wasn't Siri and Vivienna like a descendant of a returned ? I think they could but we haven't been shown or Sanderson hasn't spoken how

Yes, the Royal Locks are a manifestation of the sliver of Divine Breath within the royal line of Idris, so the Returned can have children, there's just a certain process to it we don't know. The priests do, though.

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Dunkum

Dunkum

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44 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Yes, the Royal Locks are a manifestation of the sliver of Divine Breath within the royal line of Idris, so the Returned can have children, there's just a certain process to it we don't know. The priests do, though.

Do they?  the new godking doesn't have to be the child of the current one, they get a new one whenever they come across a baby that returns.  The priests know the method of awakening wihtout speaking a command, so they can teach the godking to transfer his breaths, but do we have reason to believe they know how a returned can reproduce?

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Dunkum

Dunkum

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11 hours ago, RShara said:

Yep. Brandon mentioned it in the annotations for Warbreaker. The priests take a baby Returned as a sign that it's time to change God-Kings, but that baby Returned isn't necessarily the next God-King--they prefer that the next God-King be the actual child of the previous one.

 

huh, it's been a while since I read the annotations, I didn't realize the priests knew the methods for returned to conceive children.  I did know it was possible though.

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