How many atium shadows does a steelrunner have?

[goody153]

4 minutes ago, Invocation said:

I would say all of that hinges on the amount of speed the Steelrunner has stored up. Too much speed used too quickly will overwhelm even the enhancement of atium on anything other than a mental level.

Yeah i believe that to be true as well

but i do think seers can steelrunners on maxspeed so long as the steelrunner isn't gunning for the seer. And they're on open-space to get a chance to hit the steelrunner (you can still see a blur and a bullet is still fast enough to hit a blur moving)

[+Invocation]

Just now, goody153 said:

but i do think seers can steelrunners on maxspeed so long as the steelrunner isn't gunning for the seer. And they're on open-space to get a chance to hit the steelrunner (you can still see a blur and a bullet is still fast enough to hit a blur moving)

The bullet hitting the blur that would be the Steelrunner is debatable. Steel helps get to bullet time pretty fast, which is named appropriately for the fact that you are faster than the bullet. Seer won't be able to do anything when the Steelrunner can see the bullet like they're Quicksilver in Days of Future Past.

[goody153]

8 minutes ago, Invocation said:

The bullet hitting the blur that would be the Steelrunner is debatable. Steel helps get to bullet time pretty fast, which is named appropriately for the fact that you are faster than the bullet. Seer won't be able to do anything when the Steelrunner can see the bullet like they're Quicksilver in Days of Future Past.

Well max-speed steelrunner as we've seen is basically Lessie steelrunning

While Steelrunners have enchanced their mind to adapt to their speed. I only think it is up to some extent as it will seem redundant with Atium Allomancy (which even Fortune works differently to Atium even tho they have similar aspects)

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, goody153 said:

Well max-speed steelrunner as we've seen is basically Lessie steelrunning

While Steelrunners have enchanced their mind to adapt to their speed. I only think it is up to some extent as it will seem redundant with Atium Allomancy (which even Fortune works differently to Atium even tho they have similar aspects)

Theoretically, the correct Resonance could allow a Steelrunner to run even faster than Paalm could, not to mention they might have had more time to store speed.

Yes, the enhancement Steelrunners would have would be redundant compared to atium, but only because they can just bullet-time and out-maneuver the Seer each time before the Seer could move to adjust, no matter if they could see the shadow or not, as most of the adaptation of atium is mental.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Invocation

[+robardin]

I think the obvious answer is "only one atium shadow - the one that's going to kill you in the instant you see it", if the Steelrunner either has enough speed stored or is in close enough range with a deadly enough object to make any defensive reaction irrelevant.

I don't think Steelrunning is as useful as atium from a defensive POV, though, unless one could also tap a zincmind, because speeding yourself up doesn't mean slowing everything else down. Just because you can now move (say) 1000 feet in one second, doesn't mean you can effectively dodge a 1000 fps bullet that was just fired at you... Seems like that would depend on a number of things requiring split second decision making, where burning steel would allow you to execute those decisions in split seconds, but not necessarily give you the mental time to realize you need to do that in the first place.

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I think the obvious answer is "only one atium shadow - the one that's going to kill you in the instant you see it", if the Steelrunner either has enough speed stored or is in close enough range with a deadly enough object to make any defensive reaction irrelevant.

Doesn't burning atium let you see a certain amount of time into the future?  Then it wouldn't matter how fast the Steelrunner is, you'd still see the same 2 seconds (to make up a number) into the future.  

[+robardin]

42 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

Doesn't burning atium let you see a certain amount of time into the future?  Then it wouldn't matter how fast the Steelrunner is, you'd still see the same 2 seconds (to make up a number) into the future.  

Exactly. So where seeing 2 seconds into the future would let you avoid anything a boxer would throw at you, if the Steelrunner can move towards you at the equivalent of a bullet fired from a gun at 1000 feet per second (roughly the typical muzzle velocity of a rifle), and he's only 10 feet away from you with lethal intent and an axe, you're not going to see anything but a red haze of your own flying blood for all but a fraction of the next 2 seconds.

[Scion of the Mists]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Exactly. So where seeing 2 seconds into the future would let you avoid anything a boxer would throw at you, if the Steelrunner can move towards you at the equivalent of a bullet fired from a gun at 1000 feet per second (roughly the typical muzzle velocity of a rifle), and he's only 10 feet away from you with lethal intent and an axe, you're not going to see anything but a red haze of your own flying blood for all but a fraction of the next 2 seconds.

I'm not sure how those are different.  You'd see the axe-shadow 2 seconds prior to the Steelrunner moving.  I'm not saying that the Seer would be able to survive the encounter, only that the advanced warning that they receive from the atium is independent on the speed of the attack.  

[+robardin]

27 minutes ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I'm not sure how those are different.  You'd see the axe-shadow 2 seconds prior to the Steelrunner moving.  I'm not saying that the Seer would be able to survive the encounter, only that the advanced warning that they receive from the atium is independent on the speed of the attack.  

I see what you mean. What the Steelrunner could do in that 2 second window could be awesomely inescapable, but if he would only begin doing that action 1.5 seconds from now and you foresaw it 2 seconds earlier with atium, you would still have 0.5 seconds in which to prepare for that inescapable 1.5 seconds to follow.

From a practical perspective it's probably not much different, unless you yourself were also a Steelrunner or a Slider like Wayne who could "cancel out" some the speed from the steelmind, especially if the feruchemist were unprepared for the maneuver. Or had some quick escape mechanism to trigger in that time.

[Jace21]

For me it depends on the mental and physical enhancements a steelrunmer gets outside of the base speed increase.

I do think the Seer would probably lose but could survive a while depending on how easy it is for a steelrunner to change what their doing once commited.

[+robardin]

7 hours ago, Jace21 said:

For me it depends on the mental and physical enhancements a steelrunmer gets outside of the base speed increase.

I do think the Seer would probably lose but could survive a while depending on how easy it is for a steelrunner to change what their doing once commited.

Also in play is knowing what the other person can do, which is why Metalborn often try to keep their abilities secret or hidden. A Steelrunner has a large advantage of surprise or initiative when tapping speed, but like we saw with TLR, having a super large edge over everybody else likely means you get used to never using your full maximum ability. So while they could choose a speed-driven course of action that was unavoidable with a few seconds of atium foresight (tapping for Mach 1 level speed), without knowing about the atium they would just tap enough speed for overpowering a Johnny Normalman, giving the Seer much more time to work with (possibly even to kill them with, like putting a knife right where they're about to move to at high speed).

[Genesis]

What it really depends on is if the Seer is actively burning Atium at the time of the attack, If they are they stand a slim chance depending on how effective of a fighter Atium really makes you. If they are burning moments before the attack, they are going to have 2 seconds warning regardless of how fast the steel runner can move, The moment the steel runner decides to attack(or however Atium determines what a shadow will do) , a shadow is going to snap from the runner to the seer

[Scion of the Mists]

Even if the Seer can get ~2 seconds of foresight, there's no way that they can avoid the Steelrunner's attacks.  Even discounting the Steelrunner's somewhat heightened mental ability (to avoid arguing about its magnitude), the Seer is still limited to normal physical reactions.  How many attacks per second could the Steelrunner unleash.  Heck, they could just pick up a handful of gravel and throw it at the Seer (which would cover a large enough area that the Seer couldn't dodge).  

[Genesis]

On 05/02/2019 at 0:40 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

Even if the Seer can get ~2 seconds of foresight, there's no way that they can avoid the Steelrunner's attacks.  Even discounting the Steelrunner's somewhat heightened mental ability (to avoid arguing about its magnitude), the Seer is still limited to normal physical reactions.  How many attacks per second could the Steelrunner unleash.  Heck, they could just pick up a handful of gravel and throw it at the Seer (which would cover a large enough area that the Seer couldn't dodge).  

Yeah my bad posted that before I finished the thought, I agree that there’s little to no chance of the seer winning that confrontation, my thought process was just that two seconds is a lot of time to react in combat for someone who’s mind has been expanded enough to make split second decisions when facing a normal foe, In saying that, anything they do decide to do, is probably going to get countered the moment the Steelrunner realises that the Seer is trying to defend himself , which, as we’re not sure how Atium determines shadow creation, will either cause the shadow to make a ‘course correction’, or a second will appear. BUT by the time that second shadow (or course correction) happens it’s going to be too late.

Just as a foot note, it really depends on how Atium ‘peers’ into the spiritual realm, because there is no ‘time’ there, it’s possible that two seconds before the attack, the seer sees a shadow appear to be attacking them, then suddenly it’s in a different position dodging a counter that the Seers mind has barely had time to come up with, as this is a fairly probable outcome for the situation given, it’s fully possible that Atium ‘saw’ this as the most probable outcome and showed this to the seer, in which case the Seers fending off fending off the attack for a little longer increase. I don’t know, just food for thought.

[Lightblood]

It doesn't really matter how fast the seer can work his brain, he physically would not be able to get his body in a way to defend against a steelrunner. Just be so fast so even if they see your atium shadow they can't do anything about it.

 

[Genesis]

See that’s where I disagree, if we assume Atium consistently sees a set amount of time into the (probable) future (not factoring for flaring or allomantic strength differences etc), then they have time to react, regardless of the steel runners speed, it’s just that instead of seeing a shadow move towards them and make motions to attack, they are going have a shadow suddenly appear right on top of them attacking, Two seconds before it actually happens. Eg. let’s say that the steel runner can close the distance and attack in 0.1 seconds, the seer still has 1.9 seconds, before the steel runner has even begun his attack, to calculate and react to the sudden appearance of a shadow.

As I said, that’s just my take on things.

I kind of see it as analogous to someone (in this case the steel runner) sucker punching you, without atium, you catch a hint of movement in your periphery milliseconds before it hits you, with atium, you see that same hint of movement in your periphery two seconds before it happens, giving you just enough time to skip the punch and mitigate most of the damage you would have taken. I just want to reiterate, I’m in no way saying the seer is going to win this fight, I just don’t think it’s going to be QUITE as easy as some of the posts above seem to, but it all hinges on how and when shadows are created.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Genesis
Spelling + more to add

[Scion of the Mists]

Here's another issue.  The atium shadows have to be in real time, right?  What happens then when the attack is so fast you can't even see it?  

[Genesis]

Hmmm that is a question we don’t really have enough information to know the answer to, there are just so many different variables, Does a seer actually SEE a shadow? Or is it a manifestation of a new ‘sense’  as a way for their cognitive aspect(coupled with the investiture being channeled from the atium) to cope with a boatload of information it is naturally ill equipped to handle?

 

Its kind of in the same vein as this question: Does a coin shot REALLY see blue lines coming from their chest? Or is that just their minds way of translating the information it’s recieving from a ‘sense’ it wasn’t born with?

I mean, if there was a way to monitor the signals travelling through the Optic nerve cluster of a coinshot or seer, would there be signals travelling along it? Or would all of that information be getting ‘injected’, for lack of a better term, directly into the cerebral cortex of the person by the investiture, which then sends signals to the visual cortex as a way of interpreting the information?

If it’s travelling along the optic nerves, then I would agree with you, they aren’t going to see anything, then promptly die two seconds later. But if it’s being manifested as it’s own sense, then ‘translated’ into a visual representation, it’s possible that they would still have some awareness of the shadows motions, even thought they can’t ‘see’ it. This is all speculation obviously, without someone kidnapping Brandon and interrogating him (or something else, like, I don’t know, asking him at a signing or something similarly less spectacular  ) it’s gonna be hard to hash this one out. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Genesis
Added another paragraph for context and another

[Kingsdaughter613]

I seem to recall a WoB that blind coinshots/Lurchers/mistborn can sense the metal without seeing the lines.

Why not consider a situation where the intent isn’t to kill by to discover. So you have a steelrunner moving just slow enough for the seer to react to. The steelrunner is trying to tag the seer. How many Atium shadows can you get?