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Republic of Alleycity


Lord Meeker

Head of Defense  

11 members have voted

  1. 1. Should a Head of Defense to manage the Precursors be elected?

    • Yes
      10
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      1

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On 4/1/2019 at 5:40 PM, I think I am here. said:

Lusk raised his hand. “Objection, the Ghostbloods also practise Hemalurgy professionally.”

"Professional hemalurgy," Keleth said, "in my opinion, is any group, guild, or organization that does research on the subject.  The Ghostbloods don't really make any groundbreaking discoveries, not like the DA, so are not really counted as practicing hemalurgy professionally.  

On 4/1/2019 at 7:02 PM, Silva said:

Folding up the paper carefully, she got up and handed it to the representative who seemed so eager to get his laws passed.

"Enjoy," she said softly before returning quickly to her spot.

  Reveal hidden contents

Notes are italicized.

 

Traditional crimes:

Thievery of any sort is against the law, ownership being defined in a written form (receipts, contracts, etc.), or if the owner produced the property.

What about the homeless?

Murder or assault of any sort is against the law, assault being determined by causing enough damage to cause pain.

Including self-defense and bystander to situation clauses might be a good idea.

Vandalism is also against the law.  Vandalism being determined by causing enough damage to property to limit the property's usefulness.

Right. So I can spraypaint my name on a wall and no one will have any issues with it? That doesn’t limit the property’s usefulness, but by most people’s definitions that is vandalism.

 

Monetary laws:

Every citizen of Alleycity will be taxed 5% of all income.

What happens in cases of thievery? Do they pay 5% of the stolen income if caught? It’s not specified that it most come from legal means.

All transactions will have a 2% tax.

And is there a punishment for those who do not follow it?

With regard to Investiture:

No being shall take undue advantage of those with less investiture (such as coercion, violence etc.).

Good concept...I’m sure the vagueness of how this is to be enforced was noticed by more than just me.

 

With regard to Hemalurgy:*

Spike-outs may happen unrestricted to the terminally sick and the elderly, given that they are close enough to death to be bedridden.  

Is this with or without their prior consent? Maybe set up a system sort of like organ donor cards...

Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government

Form

  Reveal hidden contents

I, (sign name)  hereby consign myself to any and all hemalurgic experiments, with no regard to citizenship, privilege, or laws protecting me.  I give any member of the Dark Alley permission to take both my investiture and my life. I am certified not insane by the highest institute of the land.  A specialist,  (sign specialist name)  has confirmed that I am completely mentally stable.  I am not signing this under duress or coercion, and my witnesses are neither biased or influenced in an untoward way.  I am signing this in the government building itself, and three guild representatives, all from different guilds, will confirm it.

(Sign name here)             (Sign witness's name here)         (Sign DA denizen name here)            (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

(Print name here)             (Sign witness's name here)         (Sign guild rep #1 name here)           (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

Spike-ins may happen to anyone, as long as they are in accordance with hemalurgy laws.

Spike-ins may not result in death.

*Footnote:  It has come to my attention that the DA, and only the DA is capable of performing hemalurgic experiments professionally, and hemalurgy will therefore be restricted to their use only.

 

Foreign Policy: What might citizenship even affect now that the law regards both equally?

All foreigners to Alleycity are to be subjected to the same laws as citizens (Citizenship to be defined as anyone born in Alleycity, or those applying for citizenship through the proper channels).

Are people born in the Alleyways considered citizens?

In disputes between foreigners and Alleycitizens, the law will regard either equally.

Any foreigners are allowed in, as long as they are in accordance with the law.

Foreign powers will be dealt with by the discretion of the government.

What is counted as a foreign power? A group with territory outside of the city? If so, that would actually include many guilds forming the government of this city.

@Vargo Seldon

Keleth nodded his thanks to Pry, and read over the notes.  He then pulled out his list of laws and made a few edits here and there.

On 4/2/2019 at 6:11 PM, I think I am here. said:

Lusk lowered his hand. “Anyway, it seems this discussion has shifted to laws. There is a problem,”

“The law which you said no being should take undue advantage of one with less Investiture... what does that mean? What is less and more? Is a Coinshot and Augur equal because they’re both Mistings. Or is it based on use? Use of what? Combat or otherwise?

“And what does ‘take advantage’ mean? Are you saying Emotional Allomancers can’t use their abilities. What about Connector and Spinner Ferrings?”

People did seem to have a problem with that one.  Keleth supposed he couldn't blame them, it was pretty vague.  "That law is being changed.  Probably the only people who could tell the actual amount of investiture is the DA, but the rest of us must use more mundane means.  I was thinking along the lines of the index.  Anyone with an index score higher than that of another must not enter confrontation with the one with a lesser index score."  He paused, reading the skeptical faces, and ignoring the mimes that flooded the scene behind him.  He continued, "Confrontation can be defined multiple ways, not only a combat situation.  Combat should be illegal between two individuals of different index scores, but so should confrontations of other kinds.  This said, the one with the higher index score must not always be blamed.  If the one with the lower attacks, and the one with the higher defends himself, it should not be he who is convicted by the law."

Quote

I'll get an edited version out soon.

 

Edited by Vargo Seldon
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KanMien sighed. "Doesn't that mean that it's legal if a strong Rioter takes control of a Kandra, since a Kandra ranks higher than a Rioter?" They asked. "Why go for all that trouble anyway? Just say that it's illegal to cause direct or indirect harm to others using Investure, magic or Epic abilities, except for in cases self defense and you're done. The only real edge-cases you'd have left would be emotional Allomancy and Epics that can influence a person's mind. For those, I'd say that as long as a person retains their capability of making objective decisions it's fine, and if they can't it's illegal. For reading minds, I'd say surface thoughts and emotions are alright, but deep scans, like viewing memories isn't. Of course, I've got no clue how you'd detect something like that anyway, so I doubt it would really come into play anyway."

1 hour ago, Vargo Seldon said:

 I was thinking along the lines of the index.  Anyone with an index score higher than that of another must not enter confrontation with the one with a lesser index score."

Quote

I'm now imagining all Epics going on a IC pilgrimage into the Alleys to find Voidus and have their abilities ranked.

 

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2 hours ago, kenod said:

KanMien sighed. "Doesn't that mean that it's legal if a strong Rioter takes control of a Kandra, since a Kandra ranks higher than a Rioter?" They asked. "Why go for all that trouble anyway? Just say that it's illegal to cause direct or indirect harm to others using Investure, magic or Epic abilities, except for in cases self defense and you're done. The only real edge-cases you'd have left would be emotional Allomancy and Epics that can influence a person's mind. For those, I'd say that as long as a person retains their capability of making objective decisions it's fine, and if they can't it's illegal. For reading minds, I'd say surface thoughts and emotions are alright, but deep scans, like viewing memories isn't. Of course, I've got no clue how you'd detect something like that anyway, so I doubt it would really come into play anyway."

 

Keleth thought for a moment.  "You're correct.  It would be easier to just outlaw any harm to any other using investiture.  But that would fall under the catagory of assault, so we could just disolve the investiture section altogether."  He pulled out the scroll again, and read it off:

Spoiler
Traditional crimes:
  • Thievery of any sort is against the law, ownership being defined in a written form (receipts, contracts, etc.), or if the owner produced the property, or if the owner happened upon property that was not owned prior.  Last ills and testaments will be worked out by the current owner
  • Murder or assault of any sort is against the law, assault being determined by an attack with the intention to hurt, capture, maime, torture, or kill.  The aggressor will be punished, self-defense is not against the law.
  • Vandalism is also against the law.  Vandalism being determined by defacing or causing damage to another's property without his or her consent.

Monetary laws:

  • Every citizen of Alleycity will be taxed 5% of all legal income.
  • All transactions will have a 2% tax.  This document states laws, not punishments.  A penal code can be worked out accordingly.

With regard to Investiture:

  • No being shall take undue advantage of anybody by use of coercion.

With regard to Hemalurgy:*

  • Spike-outs may happen unrestricted to the terminally sick and the elderly, given that they are close enough to death to be bedridden, and they have given consent for hemalurgic expirementation prior.  Sort of like organ donor cards.
  • Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government

Form:

Spoiler
 

I, (sign name)  hereby consign myself to any and all hemalurgic experiments, with no regard to citizenship, privilege, or laws protecting me.  I give any member of the Dark Alley permission to take both my investiture and my life. I am certified not insane by the highest institute of the land.  A specialist,  (sign specialist name)  has confirmed that I am completely mentally stable.  I am not signing this under duress or coercion, and my witnesses are neither biased or influenced in an untoward way.  I am signing this in the government building itself, and three guild representatives, all from different guilds, will confirm it.

(Sign name here)        (Sign witness's name here)        (Sign DA denizen name here)            (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

(Print name here)        (Sign witness's name here)        (Sign guild rep #1 name here)           (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

 
  • Spike-ins may happen to anyone, as long as they are in accordance with hemalurgy laws.
  • Spike-ins may not result in death.
  • Spike-ins must be accompanied by a copper spike to preserve mental stability.
  • All spike-in victims must be released after 5 days of DA possession.  

*Footnote:  It has come to my attention that the DA, and only the DA is capable of performing hemalurgic experiments professionally, and hemalurgy will therefore be restricted to their use only.

 

Foreign Policy: 

  • All foreigners to Alleycity are to be subjected to the same laws as citizens (Citizenship to be defined as anyone born in Alleycity, or those applying for citizenship through the proper channels.  Note that anyone born within the city limits is considered a citizen)
  • In disputes between foreigners and Alleycitizens, the law will regard either equally.
  • Any foreigners are allowed in, as long as they are in accordance with the law.
  • Alleycitizens are privy to rights and protections (such as protection from invasion, protection by the law, job security from foreign laborers, etc.) that non-citizens are not.
  • Foreign powers will be dealt with by the discretion of the government.  Any self-governing body outside the city limits is considered a foreign power.  All guilds are under the authority of the government, as they have representatives, and are involved in government.

 

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42 minutes ago, Vargo Seldon said:

Keleth thought for a moment.  "You're correct.  It would be easier to just outlaw any harm to any other using investiture.  But that would fall under the catagory of assault, so we could just disolve the investiture section altogether."  He pulled out the scroll again, and read it off:

  Hide contents
  Reveal hidden contents
Traditional crimes:
  • Thievery of any sort is against the law, ownership being defined in a written form (receipts, contracts, etc.), or if the owner produced the property, or if the owner happened upon property that was not owned prior.  Last ills and testaments will be worked out by the current owner
  • Murder or assault of any sort is against the law, assault being determined by an attack with the intention to hurt, capture, maime, torture, or kill.  The aggressor will be punished, self-defense is not against the law.
  • Vandalism is also against the law.  Vandalism being determined by defacing or causing damage to another's property without his or her consent.

Monetary laws:

  • Every citizen of Alleycity will be taxed 5% of all legal income.
  • All transactions will have a 2% tax.  This document states laws, not punishments.  A penal code can be worked out accordingly.

With regard to Investiture:

  • No being shall take undue advantage of anybody by use of coercion.

With regard to Hemalurgy:*

  • Spike-outs may happen unrestricted to the terminally sick and the elderly, given that they are close enough to death to be bedridden, and they have given consent for hemalurgic expirementation prior.  Sort of like organ donor cards.
  • Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government

Form:

  Reveal hidden contents
  Reveal hidden contents
 
  Reveal hidden contents

I, (sign name)  hereby consign myself to any and all hemalurgic experiments, with no regard to citizenship, privilege, or laws protecting me.  I give any member of the Dark Alley permission to take both my investiture and my life. I am certified not insane by the highest institute of the land.  A specialist,  (sign specialist name)  has confirmed that I am completely mentally stable.  I am not signing this under duress or coercion, and my witnesses are neither biased or influenced in an untoward way.  I am signing this in the government building itself, and three guild representatives, all from different guilds, will confirm it.

(Sign name here)        (Sign witness's name here)        (Sign DA denizen name here)            (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

(Print name here)        (Sign witness's name here)        (Sign guild rep #1 name here)           (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

 
  • Spike-ins may happen to anyone, as long as they are in accordance with hemalurgy laws.
  • Spike-ins may not result in death.
  • Spike-ins must be accompanied by a copper spike to preserve mental stability.
  • All spike-in victims must be released after 5 days of DA possession.  

*Footnote:  It has come to my attention that the DA, and only the DA is capable of performing hemalurgic experiments professionally, and hemalurgy will therefore be restricted to their use only.

 

Foreign Policy: 

  • All foreigners to Alleycity are to be subjected to the same laws as citizens (Citizenship to be defined as anyone born in Alleycity, or those applying for citizenship through the proper channels.  Note that anyone born within the city limits is considered a citizen)
  • In disputes between foreigners and Alleycitizens, the law will regard either equally.
  • Any foreigners are allowed in, as long as they are in accordance with the law.
  • Alleycitizens are privy to rights and protections (such as protection from invasion, protection by the law, job security from foreign laborers, etc.) that non-citizens are not.
  • Foreign powers will be dealt with by the discretion of the government.  Any self-governing body outside the city limits is considered a foreign power.  All guilds are under the authority of the government, as they have representatives, and are involved in government.

 

Pry listened carefully while he spoke. It definitely was better than the previous time. There was just one issue. 

"We have a contradiction." 

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"The Investiture clause. It says a person can't be taken advantage of. But spike-ins are legal, meaning someone could be spiked with a Loyalty spike. That constitutes being taken advantage of with Investiture," Pry said, looking directly at him.

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39 minutes ago, Silva said:

"The Investiture clause. It says a person can't be taken advantage of. But spike-ins are legal, meaning someone could be spiked with a Loyalty spike. That constitutes being taken advantage of with Investiture," Pry said, looking directly at him.

"Yes it does say that," Keleth conceded, "However, the edited version specifically referred to coercion.  Since assault applies to anyone, no matter how they stand, I had to use a special clause for control or persuasion by emotional allomancy."

@Silva

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1 hour ago, Vargo Seldon said:

"Yes it does say that," Keleth conceded, "However, the edited version specifically referred to coercion.  Since assault applies to anyone, no matter how they stand, I had to use a special clause for control or persuasion by emotional allomancy."

@Silva

She stood. "It specifically says 'No being shall take undue advantage of anybody by use of coercion" under "with regard to Investiture". I can't think of any stronger coercion in relation to Investiture than a Loyalty spike. Unless, of course, you would like to argue that a switching of beliefs done without one's consent is not a form of coercion," she said. "But then again, coercion is by definition the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. It all depends on what one believes the loyalty affects. The willingness or the ultimate action. If, in the case that it is the ultimate action that determines it, then it does have to be considered a form of coercion."

Pry looked to the DA members present. "All I know on the matter is from my sister over this past year, so not all that much. Would you like to enlighten us a bit?"

Edited by Silva
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On 4/4/2019 at 6:55 PM, Silva said:

She stood. "It specifically says 'No being shall take undue advantage of anybody by use of coercion" under "with regard to Investiture". I can't think of any stronger coercion in relation to Investiture than a Loyalty spike. Unless, of course, you would like to argue that a switching of beliefs done without one's consent is not a form of coercion," she said. "But then again, coercion is by definition the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. It all depends on what one believes the loyalty affects. The willingness or the ultimate action. If, in the case that it is the ultimate action that determines it, then it does have to be considered a form of coercion."

Pry looked to the DA members present. "All I know on the matter is from my sister over this past year, so not all that much. Would you like to enlighten us a bit?"

"Hmm, yes this complicates things doesn't it," Keleth muttered.  "But since Hemalurgy was legalized by this body, I can't very well make it illegal.  My only explanation would be that hemalurgy is exempt from this law.  In this matter, my hands are tied."

@Silva

Edited by Vargo Seldon
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On 4/5/2019 at 0:04 AM, Vargo Seldon said:

"Hmm, yes this complicates things doesn't it," Keleth muttered.  "But since Hemalurgy was legalized by this body, I can't very well make it illegal.  My only explanation would be that hemalurgy is exempt from this law.  In this matter, my hands are tied."

@Silva

Pry had really hoped someone else would come to this conclusion without her nudging, but she appeared to be out of luck.

"Not really," she said. "The Hemalurgy itself was legalized. Not the application. We can't very well start making exeptions or everyone will request them. Instead, following what already is in place, we can add a clause to the Hemalurgy section specifying that while the spiking in of Loyalty spikes in legal, the use of it afterwards is not. Am I wrong in presuming that this would not contradict the legalization of Hemalurgy under certain terms and restrictions?"

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On 4/6/2019 at 7:43 PM, Silva said:

Pry had really hoped someone else would come to this conclusion without her nudging, but she appeared to be out of luck.

"Not really," she said. "The Hemalurgy itself was legalized. Not the application. We can't very well start making exeptions or everyone will request them. Instead, following what already is in place, we can add a clause to the Hemalurgy section specifying that while the spiking in of Loyalty spikes in legal, the use of it afterwards is not. Am I wrong in presuming that this would not contradict the legalization of Hemalurgy under certain terms and restrictions?"

Keleth smiled.  "You would be correct there.  Thank you for pointing that out."  He made a few hasty notes on the sheet and presented the latest version.  

Spoiler
Traditional crimes:
  • Thievery of any sort is against the law, ownership being defined in a written form (receipts, contracts, etc.), or if the owner produced the property, or if the owner happened upon property that was not owned prior.  Last ills and testaments will be worked out by the current owner
  • Murder or assault of any sort is against the law, assault being determined by an attack with the intention to hurt, capture, maime, torture, or kill.  The aggressor will be punished, self-defense is not against the law.
  • Vandalism is also against the law.  Vandalism being determined by defacing or causing damage to another's property without his or her consent.

Monetary laws:

  • Every citizen of Alleycity will be taxed 5% of all legal income.
  • All transactions will have a 2% tax.  This document states laws, not punishments.  A penal code can be worked out accordingly.

With regard to Investiture:

  • No being shall take undue advantage of any other by use of coercion with investiture.

With regard to Hemalurgy:*

  • Spike-outs may happen unrestricted to the terminally sick and the elderly, given that they are close enough to death to be bedridden, and they have given consent for hemalurgic expirementation prior.  Sort of like organ donor cards.
  • Spike-outs may also happen to those signing a form produced by the government

Form:

Spoiler

I, (sign name)  hereby consign myself to any and all hemalurgic experiments, with no regard to citizenship, privilege, or laws protecting me.  I give any member of the Dark Alley permission to take both my investiture and my life. I am certified not insane by the highest institute of the land.  A specialist,  (sign specialist name)  has confirmed that I am completely mentally stable.  I am not signing this under duress or coercion, and my witnesses are neither biased or influenced in an untoward way.  I am signing this in the government building itself, and three guild representatives, all from different guilds, will confirm it.

(Sign name here)        (Sign witness's name here)        (Sign DA denizen name here)            (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

(Print name here)        (Sign witness's name here)        (Sign guild rep #1 name here)           (Sign guild rep #2 name here)

 

  • Spike-ins may not result in death.
  • Spike-ins must be accompanied by a copper spike to preserve mental stability.
  • All spike-in victims must be released after 5 days of DA possession.  
  • Note that although loyalty spike-ins are made legal by the hemalurgy bill, the DA will not be permitted to use such spikes to comply with the Investiture.

*Footnote:  It has come to my attention that the DA, and only the DA is capable of performing hemalurgic experiments professionally, and hemalurgy will therefore be restricted to their use only.

 

Foreign Policy: 

  • All foreigners to Alleycity are to be subjected to the same laws as citizens (Citizenship to be defined as anyone born in Alleycity, or those applying for citizenship through the proper channels.  Note that anyone born within the city limits is considered a citizen)
  • In disputes between foreigners and Alleycitizens, the law will regard either equally.
  • Any foreigners are allowed in, as long as they are in accordance with the law.
  • Alleycitizens are privy to rights and protections (such as protection from invasion, protection by the law, job security from foreign laborers, etc.) that non-citizens are not.
  • Foreign powers will be dealt with by the discretion of the government.  Any self-governing body outside the city limits is considered a foreign power.  All guilds are under the authority of the government, as they have representatives, and are involved in government.

After reading the laws, Keleth made his own statement.  "These laws, as you may have noticed," he began, "are incomplete.  They only begin with the most basic pieces.  All these will amount to is a base.  People will present their own laws over time, adding to this list, or present amendments, changing this list.  With the allowance of time, this list will grow into the Alleyverse code of law.  I hope you all take this into consideration."  He sat down, his work complete.

@Silva @Voidus @I think I am here. @Nohadon @Kidpen @any more GG reps

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There were some murmurs escape from the area where DA denizens had gathered, they all seemed to discuss something amongst themselves for a minute, seemingly culminating in a game of rock paper spikes. The game continued for several minutes before one of them pointed out that they could all continue to choose spike every time.

Eventually one of them smiled broadly and seemed to be victorious. With a flourish he pulled a silvery spike from a pocket and thrust it violently towards his own collarbone. After taking a moment to adjust, he pulled a small handkerchief from a pocket and dabbed at the blood that was beginning to seep into his shirt. He then opened his mouth to address the assembled representatives and instead of speaking, let out a long plume of emerald-green smoke from his mouth. He then began to emit a series of smoke-rings in various colours before seeming to be satisfied.

He pulled the spike back out with a small wince and held it out to those assembled.

"Anyone else care for a try? Takes a bit to get the knack."

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33 minutes ago, Voidus said:

There were some murmurs escape from the area where DA denizens had gathered, they all seemed to discuss something amongst themselves for a minute, seemingly culminating in a game of rock paper spikes. The game continued for several minutes before one of them pointed out that they could all continue to choose spike every time.

Eventually one of them smiled broadly and seemed to be victorious. With a flourish he pulled a silvery spike from a pocket and thrust it violently towards his own collarbone. After taking a moment to adjust, he pulled a small handkerchief from a pocket and dabbed at the blood that was beginning to seep into his shirt. He then opened his mouth to address the assembled representatives and instead of speaking, let out a long plume of emerald-green smoke from his mouth. He then began to emit a series of smoke-rings in various colours before seeming to be satisfied.

He pulled the spike back out with a small wince and held it out to those assembled.

"Anyone else care for a try? Takes a bit to get the knack."

Keleth, after just finishing his dramatic speech, turned towards the smoke rings.  "Ooo, pretty.  I would love to give it a shot."  He seemed to think about this, and after just discussing loyalty spikes, he decided to pass.

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The space marine representative stood up and cleared his throat.

"In light of recent events," he said, his blood-red eyes grim, "wasting the Assembly's time seems inappropriate. Thus, I'll make this quick."

He pointed at the Keeper's representative. "The Black Crusade," he said, "formally accuses the Keepers guild of lying about their Great Guild status, sheltering hostile forces, and the obstruction of justice. We move that the Keepers immediately have their Great Guild status stripped away and be subject to investigation by the Republic for charges of corruption and heresy."

Spoiler

Here's my points:

  • Obstruction of Justice: delaying aid to WhiteRose church and obstructing the investigation of the Waiter
  • Great Guild Status: Only two of the members other than Ark have been active since the guild's formation, and one has gone inactive. Despite this, Ark has used this Great Guild status to achieve personal goals and vote in the Assembly.
  • Sheltering hostile forces: Admitting to sheltering known raiders and plunderers, who are currently besieging Fortress Eternal. Repeated refusal to allow military access to the mountains in order to exterminate the yeti menace.

Furthermore, the Keepers have exhibited the following suspicious behavior:

  • A marked lack of reaction to the wholesale slaughter of children
  • Sympathy being shown for the terrorists

@Lord Meeker @kenod @I think I am here. @Nohadon @Vargo Seldon @Darth Woodrack @MacThorstenson @Voidus @Ark1002

Edited by Grey Knight
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10 minutes ago, Grey Knight said:

The space marine representative stood up and cleared his throat.

"In light of recent events," he said, his blood-red eyes grim, "wasting the Assembly's time seems inappropriate. Thus, I'll make this quick."

He pointed at the Keeper's representative. "The Black Crusade," he said, "formally accuses the Keepers guild of lying about their Great Guild status, sheltering hostile forces, and the obstruction of justice. We move that the Keepers immediately have their Great Guild status stripped away and be subject to investigation by the Republic for charges of corruption and heresy."

  Hide contents

Here's my points:

  • Obstruction of Justice: delaying aid to WhiteRose church and obstructing the investigation of the Waiter
  • Great Guild Status: Only two of the members other than Ark have been active since the guild's formation, and one has gone inactive. Despite this, Ark has used this Great Guild status to achieve personal goals and vote in the Assembly.
  • Sheltering hostile forces: Admitting to sheltering known raiders and plunderers, who are currently besieging Fortress Eternal. Repeated refusal to allow military access to the mountains in order to exterminate the yeti menace.

Furthermore, the Keepers have exhibited the following suspicious behavior:

  • A marked lack of reaction to the wholesale slaughter of children
  • Sympathy being shown for the terrorists

@Lord Meeker @kenod @I think I am here. @Nohadon @Vargo Seldon @Darth Woodrack @MacThorstenson @Voidus @Ark1002

Quote

Um, how would this actually work?

Would we go and hold a second count or something, where everybody just says in a thread/pm which guild they want to be counted for, and afterwards we see if the Keepers still have 5 people?

 

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3 hours ago, kenod said:

Um, how would this actually work?

Would we go and hold a second count or something, where everybody just says in a thread/pm which guild they want to be counted for, and afterwards we see if the Keepers still have 5 people?

Quote

All we really need to do is look at the accounts of the members on the Keepers' roster. If they're inactive, we strike them from the roster. After all that, if the Keepers have less than 5 members, they should lose their Great Guild status.

 

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Just now, Grey Knight said:

All we really need to do is look at the accounts of the members on the Keepers' roster. If they're inactive, we strike them from the roster. After all that, if the Keepers have less than 5 members, they should lose their Great Guild status.

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That doesn't really work though, since people can only count towards a single guild, so they might have members who want to count towards other guilds, or people who originally were counted towards other guilds but want to switch to the Keepers. This would affect the other guilds too.

Also, given the recent rising of the CotW I think a new census would be good anyway, since the general balance might have changed somewhat. This would be a good opportunity for a general review (though I don't think the GBs and TUBA will be demoted).

 

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28 minutes ago, Ark1002 said:

I'm fine with a second count, but what would that mean for the army that already exists in the Keepers name?

Also, I can dispute multiple points, but I'm busy right now.

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No clue. Not being of Great Guild status anymore because of membership shortage would imply that the guild doesn't have resources anymore, but in-universe you'd measure that by the fact that the resources aren't there, meaning that the army never existed, or that they aren't capable of maintaining it anymore.

This, however, creates a conflict with the fact that the army does exist, which indicates that they still have resources, while at the same time they -OOC- shouldn't have those anymore. My own explanation would be that they kept maintaining the army despite the lack of resources, causing large shortages of resources in other parts of the guild, creating the illusion of something that's still a strong superpower but that's actually in shambles internally. Either that or they downsized a lot to balance the books, and used tricks to maintain the illusion of having a large army.

As for the other IC points raised as to why the Keepers should no longer be a Great Guild, it's dubious as to whether or not that would be enough to convince people to vote for the loss of their Great Guild status, and I'd say most reps would vote against using it to demote the Keepers solely because it sets a really dangerous precedent for them as well, since by those standards you could make a reasonable case for kicking out the GB just for being assassins (ignoring the fact that with what we already know about their involvement with the attack on the Church these standards would be more than enough to demote them).

There's also the fact that demotion as punishment doesn't immediately rid a guild of their resources. The other guilds might tell to them to disband their armies to stay on the council, but if they refuse they'd still have all of their resources. Long term, they'd probably lose a lot of their army and resources because of trade sanctions and the like, but until then it doesn't have much of an immediate impact. The main issue is that refusing to disband their armies would get them kicked from the government and would make the other Great Guild rather pissed off at them, which could lead to a guild war, but even then it's quite possible most guilds won't really do that much.

 

Edited by kenod
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