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Invocation

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1 hour ago, asterion137 said:

Vasher is out of his league, no? I doubt he survives the massacre at the beginning, even with his enhancements and skill.

 

I would argue Vasher would be most in his element in a massive brawl in which he can use his set of skills to, instead of dueling (which we know he's bad at, save for the one trick), he could just run around and stab people in the back for a while. Eventually, yes, he will die, but presuming Rashek doesn't lightspeed around to murder everyone in less than an instant, he'd put up a bit of a fight. 

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3 minutes ago, Lunamor said:

Couldn’t Shallan just Lightweave herself to be invisible then wait for everyone else to pick each other off, then kill her final opponent with her Shardblade when he isn’t looking her direction?

A couple of issues with that: 1. I think one of the Mistborn could Seek her out with bronze and 2. No time to draw your surroundings and magically blend when Rashek taps so much speed he hits lightspeed and kills everyone.

Also several people in this arena could survive a Shardblade wound.

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2 minutes ago, Invocation said:

1. I think one of the Mistborn could Seek her out with bronze

Ah, I had forgotten about Seekers. Wait, does anyone else besides Jasnah and her have easy access to the cognitive realm? She could just hide there. And maybe cut off the Lord Rulers metalminds with her Shardblade or cut them out of his stomach if he is trying to burn them?

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5 minutes ago, Lunamor said:

Ah, I had forgotten about Seekers. Wait, does anyone else besides Jasnah and her have easy access to the cognitive realm? She could just hide there. And maybe cut off the Lord Rulers metalminds with her Shardblade or cut them out of his stomach if he is trying to burn them?

Leaving the arena is a disqualification, and the CR counts. Cutting the metalminds would be difficult because they're highly Invested, and cutting his soul would be difficult too, likely, for the same reason, plus his compounded gold, and Shardblades don't cut flesh in a way to allow cutting stuff out of his stomach to work, I think.

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Given that we have only seen Elantrians starting at basically zero power level and then only for a few pages dealing with everyones favorite Scadrian psychopath, I do not think we have a full grasp of their powers. Every Elantrian likely has a series of Aon programs running all around them at all times, forming shields, power boosters, senses. and potentially weapons. Think shardplate, only more versatile and better at adaptation. 

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On 1/27/2019 at 0:37 AM, asterion137 said:

Marsh is an Inquisitor with access to most of the metals and a lot of the most dangerous compounding. That said, he's a gnat to Kelsier or the Lord Ruler. He might be able to keep up with them in reaction speed, but nicrosil compounding means that he's still a fair bit weaker than either of their boosted A-pewter, and also won't be able to move quite as fast since he won't be as durable. He might be able to get in a lucky shot with duralumin though.

I think it's a fair bet to assume TLR did not have access to nicrosil or chromium, even if he did have knowledge of them. It would be really hard to produce either with pre-industrial technology. But even if he did, he would be at a disadvantage when facing Marsh or Kelsier, who know his weakness and how to exploit it.

Kelsier is a Fullborn, and so is equal to The Lord Ruler in power, though he only has 300ish years of experience to the Lord Ruler's 1000. Despite this disadvantage, Kelsier is possibly even more dangerous than the Lord Ruler is, since, as a Cognitive shadow, he may not need atium metalminds to extend his life, and thus would not have an easily exploitable weakness. In any case, both Wax and Marasi were able to push on metals embedded in peoples' bodies by increasing their level of Investiture with F-nicrosil. Kelsier would be able to do the same to TLR's metalminds, even if he swallowed them. Kelsier has easy access to all sixteen metals and can leech the investiture out of any opponent he faces (though he hardly needs to!). Unlike TLR, his access to nicrosil is confirmed and he will definitely be able to abuse Nicrosil and Chromium (either of which would probably guarantee a win if the Lord Ruler doesn't have access to them)

If the mists are in play, Vin could be as dangerous as the others above, but she still probably does not have the hax to beat Kelsier, who has access to compounding, as well as Allomancy on mist-powered Vin's level, though he would have to expend metals to use it.

Zane would die fairly quickly to most of the power players, including the Heralds and Elantrians.

Vasher is out of his league, no? I doubt he survives the massacre at the beginning, even with his enhancements and skill.

Everyone dies except for Kelsier and maybe Jasnah by escape to the Cognitive Realm

TL;DR: Kelsier wins easily, with Rashek being his only serious opponent. Even then it's not really close, since Kelsier has infinite luck and Allomantic potency to go along with functionally infinite healing, speed, and strength. Plus you can't kill him by pushing on his bracelets.

 

I would argue that we're not really certain of any of Kelsier's powers at this point. I mean, I agree that he's definitely a force to be reckoned with, but we don't know what his actual power set is. 

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On 1/26/2019 at 0:30 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

Much in the spirit of Hunger Games, temporary alliances are a good possibility. If these combatants have prior knowledge of each other and their abilities then it's pretty obvious that the Scadrial combatants are going to be the most dangerous. Even without that prior knowledge, someone calling himself The Sliver of Infinity seems like a badass. With that being the case, what are the odds that a couple bright bulbs would team up to take on the most obvious threat? And which combo of magic users reasonably breaks Rashek? 

The next most dangerous would be the Heralds with their blades restored to them. They don't have a whole bunch of abilities but what they can do is super impressive. And as a previous poster said, their fuel source is unlimited. And although they may not be able to quite keep up with an F-Steel user the disparity probably isn't quite as vast as some would claim. Plus, durability. Those 10 together ended multiple apocalypses. The key to defeating them is making them fight separately. 

Susy isn't quite as helpless as many seem to think either. Although his fuel source is technically limited, 50000 Breaths is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, his fuel is at least partially reusable. With his Heightening level he gains both instant understanding of his powers, perfect control and silent commands. He could in fact probably craft a couple Nightbloods out of someone's swords while in the arena. For 2000 Breaths out of his stockpile he can make weapons that Gods are wary of. 

Those are the ones you're going to be most wary of. The Vin/Elend combo is great but they're better being an asset to a team taking down more powerful foes than striking out on their own. Their best bet would be to help someone take down someone else and backstab the weakened winner. 

Vasher is in the same boat as the Ventures, except that they are team players and Vasher doesn't play well with others. Even if you pair him with Vivienda they aren't the type of couple that would work well with allies. They're going to have to hide. 

Dalinar is probably the only sub-God level character with a chance of standing toe to toe with bosses without assistance, but he'd have to be careful. He's most likely to allign with someone else to achieve his goals and with access to the Thrill plus his Shards he's nearly unkillabe. He's also likely the best tactician of the group. 

Kenton gets obliterated in seconds. The Selish delegation is useless unless the Dome is built on top of Elantris and even then they're too slow. Their only chance lies in extreme preparation. 

Minor nitpick, it is confirmed by Vasher that Susebron still has to be taught the commands. This is also confirmed because Vasher has had all that breath, yet himself and the other 4 scholars still needed to research and learn commands. So Susebron would not have instant understanding of his powers. 

On 1/26/2019 at 2:06 PM, not an Evil Librarian said:

Rashek could simply compound speed and kill everyone in the arena before anyone could blink. 

Batter wouldn't need to blink to soulcast everything around her when it is directly fueled by a shard. I also think she would be able to shift to the cognitive realm and then soulcast everyone. I know Invocation says otherwise and I will respond to him below

On 1/26/2019 at 4:19 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Personally I think Rashek would be particularly vulnerable to Battar, Ash, Chana and Taln. Battar Soulcasts walls and obsticles to slow him. Ash could do the same but also makes Illusions to confuse him. Taln turns the ground to quicksand so he can't use F-Steel as effectively. He isn't going to fly as fast as he can run with steel. And if Chana can get a hand on him she can use Division to dissolve his chull. Really any combo of 3 Heralds with a direct plugin to Honor and complimentary skills could take down Rashek given prior knowledge of his skills. Soulcasting is particularly good against him because everything becomes a variable weapon. Division is only effective at touch but presumably any of the Heralds can take a punch. Rashek goes to punch Chana and his arm dissolves. Not his entire body, he's too Invested. Another important thing. Rashek can't leech a Herald. He can leech everyone else but not a Herald. And his power is finite.

Susubron is the true Dark Horse in this. The OP said Nightblood himself can't enter. But if Susu makes a Nightblood in the Dome and gives it to Rashek it doesn't matter how Invested he is. He will have died from that particular poison pill.

I keep coming back to when the honorblades were how they originally were, which was fueled directly by honor. We have seen what Vin can do when directly fueled by preservation. A steel push that pushed on all trace metals in kredick shaw and leveled the entire building. Personally I feel Battar using her honorblade transformation and transportation directly fueled by a shard with no limit could in fact soulcast all combatants at once to smoke regardless if Rashek was compounding at the time. 

On 1/26/2019 at 5:10 PM, not an Evil Librarian said:

it doesn't matter how powerful everyone else is. it doesn't matter if soulcasters have the ability to harm him or not. either way, everyone in the arena would be dead before they have the opportunity to use these powers. compounded speed, both physical and mental, will allow the Lord Ruler to end the fight before it even truly starts. 

Doesn't take direct action to transfer to the cognitive realm, and unlimited healing from the honorblade would be up there with Rashek's compounding health. 

15 hours ago, Invocation said:

A couple of issues with that: 1. I think one of the Mistborn could Seek her out with bronze and 2. No time to draw your surroundings and magically blend when Rashek taps so much speed he hits lightspeed and kills everyone.

Also several people in this arena could survive a Shardblade wound.

When they were in Knolinar, there were voidspren known as the screamers that would sense the use of active investiture (such as span reeds and the such). If Kaladin used his surge, they would sense it and scream as well. Shallan's illusions were the only ones not detected. I posit based on this, Shallan's illusions have a passive copper cloud like effect, that could theoretically hide from a seeker. 

15 hours ago, Invocation said:

Leaving the arena is a disqualification, and the CR counts. Cutting the metalminds would be difficult because they're highly Invested, and cutting his soul would be difficult too, likely, for the same reason, plus his compounded gold, and Shardblades don't cut flesh in a way to allow cutting stuff out of his stomach to work, I think.

Not sure why cognitive realm disqualifies. The physical, cognitive, and spiritual are all overlaid on each other. Thinking beings are present in all three realms. The only difference Batter would be doing is moving her physical there as well. So yes, it is an ace up Battar's sleeve, but I think it is very much a valid tactic especially considering the lord rulers compounding is allowed. 

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14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

When they were in Knolinar, there were voidspren known as the screamers that would sense the use of active investiture (such as span reeds and the such). If Kaladin used his surge, they would sense it and scream as well. Shallan's illusions were the only ones not detected. I posit based on this, Shallan's illusions have a passive copper cloud like effect, that could theoretically hide from a seeker. 

15 hours ago, Invocation said:
Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Does bronze detect Investiture or only Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Investiture. It can be used for other things. But like most detection methods, it doesn't look for wells of power, it looks for power that's being used, generally. You get enough power together, and bronze will be able to find it no matter what.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Bronze would be able to find the illusions when they're first being made, it seems, but perhaps not to easily see them once they're up and just idly running.

21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Not sure why cognitive realm disqualifies. The physical, cognitive, and spiritual are all overlaid on each other. Thinking beings are present in all three realms. The only difference Batter would be doing is moving her physical there as well. So yes, it is an ace up Battar's sleeve, but I think it is very much a valid tactic especially considering the lord rulers compounding is allowed. 

The reason I say that the Cognitive is a disqualification is that the arena itself is in the Physical, and while the Cognitive does overlap that, it likely would not be reflected in the Cognitive in a capacity to actually qualify it as part of the arena.

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22 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Bronze would be able to find the illusions when they're first being made, it seems, but perhaps not to easily see them once they're up and just idly running.

The reason I say that the Cognitive is a disqualification is that the arena itself is in the Physical, and while the Cognitive does overlap that, it likely would not be reflected in the Cognitive in a capacity to actually qualify it as part of the arena.

Wasn't saying bronze could not detect kinetic investiture. That is confirmed. However despite bronze being able to detect kinetic investiture, there are powers that can block its detecting abilities, such as burning copper. Just like there is yolish lightweaving, selish lightweaving and rosharan lightweaving, I would imagine there would be overlap in other magic systems. So my point was the screamers in Oathbringer during the Kholinar scenes would act like bronze seekers, detecting kinetic investiture. Yet despite their kinetic investiture detecting capabilities they were unable to detect Shallan's lightweaving. They specifically comment on how her surges seem to be "quieter" than Kaladin's for some reason. So I posit that lightweaving has an intrinsic characteristic like a copper cloud to hide from investiture detectors. Which makes sense because if your whole schtick is to be covert and hidden, it would suck if any old person could detect your ability is being used. So I still say Shallan's illusions could hide from a bronze seeker.

edit: Shallan makes new illusions all the time while in Kholinar and that does not instigate the screamers, so starting or maintaining illusions would not matter. The illusions should still not be detected by bronze in my opinion

 

And I still say considering the power set the Lord Ruler has access to, that using the cognitive realm is quite fair and reasonable to allow the heralds to use. But at the end of the day you are the OP that put forward the scenario, so you would have last word/ruling of course. 

 

An additional point but this is moving on regarding the overall discussion, considering the heralds if they had their honorblades as they originally were, then they would have unlimited access to surges that could affect the entire arena. It doesn't matter how fast the lord ruler is moving if gravit, or friction no longer works. No matter how strong or fast he is, if the ground is clay and mud, he isn't getting anywhere. If he steel pushes, his increased speed no longer comes into play and he is again vulnerable to gravity. 

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Just now, Pathfinder said:

Wasn't saying bronze could not detect kinetic investiture. That is confirmed. However despite bronze being able to detect kinetic investiture, there are powers that can block its detecting abilities, such as burning copper. Just like there is yolish lightweaving, selish lightweaving and rosharan lightweaving, I would imagine there would be overlap in other magic systems. So my point was the screamers in Oathbringer during the Kholinar scenes would act like bronze seekers, detecting kinetic investiture. Yet despite their kinetic investiture detecting capabilities they were unable to detect Shallan's lightweaving. They specifically comment on how her surges seem to be "quieter" than Kaladin's for some reason. So I posit that lightweaving has an intrinsic characteristic like a copper cloud to hide from investiture detectors. Which makes sense because if your whole schtick is to be covert and hidden, it would suck if any old person could detect your ability is being used. So I still say Shallan's illusions could hide from a bronze seeker.

 

My bad, I misunderstood. I would somewhat agree with you.

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

An additional point but this is moving on regarding the overall discussion, considering the heralds if they had their honorblades as they originally were, then they would have unlimited access to surges that could affect the entire arena. It doesn't matter how fast the lord ruler is moving if gravit, or friction no longer works. No matter how strong or fast he is, if the ground is clay and mud, he isn't getting anywhere. If he steel pushes, his increased speed no longer comes into play and he is again vulnerable to gravity. 

That's assuming he doesn't just pop them right off the bat before they have a chance to use their surges. I'll fully admit, compounding speed is really overpowered.

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26 minutes ago, Invocation said:

My bad, I misunderstood. I would somewhat agree with you.

That's assuming he doesn't just pop them right off the bat before they have a chance to use their surges. I'll fully admit, compounding speed is really overpowered.

No problemo. I use bolding to show emphasis or call special attention to something, not in a yelling fashion so I shy away from caps. Hopefully it read in that manner. 

 

See my thing is the lord rule still needs to tap the speed right? He has to actively use the power, so shouldn't they all get to actively use their power? As in they all take the same action to activate, with their minds. So what I am saying is the lord ruler activates his speed at the same time jezeren activates gravity, or at the same time taln activates cohesion, or the same time battar activates transformation. It is all activated at the speed of thought. Now an elantrian that has to draw the aon is screwed because the lord ruler could activate and use his power in the time it took them to draw the aon, but not so in my opinion with the heralds. 

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19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

See my thing is the lord rule still needs to tap the speed right? He has to actively use the power, so shouldn't they all get to actively use their power? As in they all take the same action to activate, with their minds. So what I am saying is the lord ruler activates his speed at the same time jezeren activates gravity, or at the same time taln activates cohesion, or the same time battar activates transformation. It is all activated at the speed of thought. Now an elantrian that has to draw the aon is screwed because the lord ruler could activate and use his power in the time it took them to draw the aon, but not so in my opinion with the heralds. 

True, it all works fast, but the Heralds need a specific target that it would take them time to find, and some of them need even to touch someone to use their powers to full effect. The Lord Ruler need neither of those things, as he can tap Zinc and speed up his mental faculties enough to where his speed of thought is faster than everyone else's to determine a target and then use physical speed to get there, all before the Heralds have processed that he's the main threat they need to focus on.

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8 minutes ago, Invocation said:

True, it all works fast, but the Heralds need a specific target that it would take them time to find, and some of them need even to touch someone to use their powers to full effect. The Lord Ruler need neither of those things, as he can tap Zinc and speed up his mental faculties enough to where his speed of thought is faster than everyone else's to determine a target and then use physical speed to get there, all before the Heralds have processed that he's the main threat they need to focus on.

it does depend, but Taln, Palliah (edgedancer herald i think) and Jezereh would already all be touching the ground with their feet (Kaladin has shown any part touching works), and given the strength they could put into their surges, the entire area would be covered with adhesion, or changing the direction of gravity, or making all the ground mud, or removing all friction which would stop the lord ruler in his tracks. Jasnah we have seen can soulcast during combat with a thought. She doesn't even have to look in the direction of what she soulcasts. So I do not feel that would be a limitation on Battar. 

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41 minutes ago, Stormblessed Dolphin said:

So. sounds like this is essentially Rashek vs. the Heralds? And then Dalinar, Susebron, and Elantrians, in about that order.

I do feel as long as Rashek is on the table, then the only way to make a somewhat fair combat would be the heralds with their fully powered blades. Everyone else would get curb stomped. If Rashek was removed, I think it would be more interesting, and by extension the heralds with full powered honorblades would be banned as well. But this isn't my show, so not my say lol. 

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2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do feel as long as Rashek is on the table, then the only way to make a somewhat fair combat would be the heralds with their fully powered blades. Everyone else would get curb stomped. If Rashek was removed, I think it would be more interesting, and by extension the heralds with full powered honorblades would be banned as well. But this isn't my show, so not my say lol. 

Yeah, I kind of didn't think about how powerful Rashek would be when accounting for this whole battle thing.

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45 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do feel as long as Rashek is on the table, then the only way to make a somewhat fair combat would be the heralds with their fully powered blades. Everyone else would get curb stomped. If Rashek was removed, I think it would be more interesting, and by extension the heralds with full powered honorblades would be banned as well. But this isn't my show, so not my say lol. 

That's basically what my whole point was. Rashek is obviously the biggest threat outside of the Shards themselves. If there were a Herald that somehow was able to do all the Surges, like say if Taln swallowed Yelig-Nar, then that would be the biggest threat only because of the unlimited power supply.  Since that's probably not an option it's gonna be Rashek's show. If everyone bands against him then the contest becomes more of a free-for-all after he dies.

Then you'll have to get the Heralds to turn against each other. A tricky balance since they would be essential in beating Rashek. They are going to be the only people Rashek can't 1 shot murder in the entire arena. 

If those 2 things are accomplished and we can prevent Susy from creating another Nightblood, it probably comes down to a Rosharan or a Scadrian. Marsh v Dalinar. The Ventures v. Kaladin/Jasnah. 

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4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That's basically what my whole point was. Rashek is obviously the biggest threat outside of the Shards themselves. If there were a Herald that somehow was able to do all the Surges, like say if Taln swallowed Yelig-Nar, then that would be the biggest threat only because of the unlimited power supply.  Since that's probably not an option it's gonna be Rashek's show. If everyone bands against him then the contest becomes more of a free-for-all after he dies.

Then you'll have to get the Heralds to turn against each other. A tricky balance since they would be essential in beating Rashek. They are going to be the only people Rashek can't 1 shot murder in the entire arena. 

If those 2 things are accomplished and we can prevent Susy from creating another Nightblood, it probably comes down to a Rosharan or a Scadrian. Marsh v Dalinar. The Ventures v. Kaladin/Jasnah. 

I don't think Susebron could create another Nightblood in this scenario since some sort of shardic intervention was necessary to create Nightblood in its current form. He could probably come up with a shardblade more like Vivenna's though.

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

it does depend, but Taln, Palliah (edgedancer herald i think) and Jezereh would already all be touching the ground with their feet (Kaladin has shown any part touching works)

I believe Kaladin was barefoot, so this only works if the Heralds fight without shoes. 

It's a legitimate point though, probably the only way with even a chance of slowing Rashek in time.

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2 hours ago, Invocation said:

Yeah, I kind of didn't think about how powerful Rashek would be when accounting for this whole battle thing.

No worries. It is hard to balance a fight because of a whole lot of factors. Brandon has also stated he did not create the magic systems to fair between them. There are going to be some just plain and simple stronger than others. 

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That's basically what my whole point was. Rashek is obviously the biggest threat outside of the Shards themselves. If there were a Herald that somehow was able to do all the Surges, like say if Taln swallowed Yelig-Nar, then that would be the biggest threat only because of the unlimited power supply.  Since that's probably not an option it's gonna be Rashek's show. If everyone bands against him then the contest becomes more of a free-for-all after he dies.

Then you'll have to get the Heralds to turn against each other. A tricky balance since they would be essential in beating Rashek. They are going to be the only people Rashek can't 1 shot murder in the entire arena. 

If those 2 things are accomplished and we can prevent Susy from creating another Nightblood, it probably comes down to a Rosharan or a Scadrian. Marsh v Dalinar. The Ventures v. Kaladin/Jasnah. 

Totally get this is not the point of your post, this is completely meant as a slight aside, but I theorize that swallowing Yelig-nar would act like nightblood. I think he only consumes the host while it uses his abilities. I think a "perfect" host for it would be someone that can already draw investiture in. So Taln would need the "unlimited" honorblade bonded to fuel the powers granted by Yelig-nar. Again, has nothing to do with the point you are making, totally intended as just an aside. 

Lol the Heralds turned against each other would be Ashyn part 2

I think even if Susibron could create another nightblood, it would be more to his detriment than boon. Those breaths that he could always pull back, become a depreciating supply due to his feeding. All the other combatants have numerous means of keeping away and out of range of Susibron. So ultimately they would just need to do what the fused attempted to do the Szeth. Steal the sheath, and let him kill himself from being consumed. 

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

I believe Kaladin was barefoot, so this only works if the Heralds fight without shoes. 

It's a legitimate point though, probably the only way with even a chance of slowing Rashek in time.

True, though one would imagine they would be barefoot as they would know they would be limiting their combat effectiveness, and wouldn't need to worry about stubbing their toe lol. Thank you. 

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While regarding Rashek, I think that we must consider one crucial point. The Lord Ruler's purpose, that is, the very reason Brandon Sanderson wrote him, was to be overpowered. he has not written any other character in the Cosmere, aside from the shards for this reason alone. 

That's not to say that there are not any other OP characters in the Cosmere, however none of these characters were created from a base trait of overpowerdness. 

In my opinion, aside from the shards, The Lord Ruler has the most valid claim to Godhood out of any character in the Cosmere so far. 

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