Who is the best leader

[Turtle373]

For some reason last night I was having a debate with myself on who the best leader in the cosmere is, I eventually settled on Raoden because he was able to turn a a group of people who had completely given up on life into a thriving community, and he turned two of his enemies, Aanden and Karata, into allies. So who do you guys think is the best leader?

I only put people who we've seen as an on screen leader, and I probably missed a couple so feel free to discuss why you think people who aren't on the list are the best leaders.

[Gasper]

I think it depends on the type of leader. As far as pure leadership ability, it has to go to either Dalinar or Kaladin. The only reason that Dalinar edges out Kaladin is that Dalinar has experience and is wiser. Kaladin has the potential to be a better leader than Dalinar because he is learning good leadership at a younger age than Dalinar. I am around the same age as Kaladin and I can tell you that there is no way I would let someone my age, no matter the culture, run a country or an army. Kaladin has about the limit of authority that I would give someone under the age of 30.

The character I would be most likely to vote for would be Elend. He is a scholar and a warrior, but does not let his ego get the final say in his decisions. He is not as decisive a leader as Dalinar, but I think that would have happened had he survived his encounter with Marsh and had Vin at his side after Harmony's ascension. He is loyal to his wife, he is willing to compromise with people who do not share his views, and he genuinely cares about his people. He is not just in it for the power, or the votes, or the prestige, he wants to make the world a better place for everyone. At certain times, he almost cares too much about the people. He is also self-sacrificing, during the final battle at the Pits of Hathsin, he is at the forefront of the battle, he fights even until the point where he can fight no more. Elend is the man that I would want to lead a country. 

[Jaywalk]

Dalinar all the way.

[Turtle373]

16 minutes ago, Gasper said:

The character I would be most likely to vote for would be Elend. He is a scholar and a warrior, but does not let his ego get the final say in his decisions. He is not as decisive a leader as Dalinar, but I think that would have happened had he survived his encounter with Marsh and had Vin at his side after Harmony's ascension. He is loyal to his wife, he is willing to compromise with people who do not share his views, and he genuinely cares about his people. He is not just in it for the power, or the votes, or the prestige, he wants to make the world a better place for everyone. At certain times, he almost cares too much about the people. He is also self-sacrificing, during the final battle at the Pits of Hathsin, he is at the forefront of the battle, he fights even until the point where he can fight no more. Elend is the man that I would want to lead a country. 

Yeah Elend was my second choice, at the end of HoA he was really starting to learn to make hard choices and I think that had he survived he would have been an amazing leader.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

I picked Raoden because even though we never actually see him rule from a throne it's obvious that the people love him. And that might just be because Iadon is not that great, but the loyalty he has is pretty significant. And then in Elantris, he gains allegiance very swiftly despite the fact that he's brand new to the city and they don't know his identity. He's very considerate of other people's needs and he's not full of himself. Kaladin is a close second though. This was a very hard choice. 

[+Ark1002]

Kelsier, no doubt. He created a huge plan against the Lord Ruler, succeeded, and has a religion based around him. Because of that.

Yeah, Raoden turned around those who had given up on life, but what where the Skaa? The exact same thing, and there was more.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Ark1002

[Ashertliden]

*Cough* The Lord Ruler *Cough*

[Quantus]

As others have said, it depends on what kind of leader and what they are leading: 

Dalinar is shaping up to be the quintessential War-time King, but I think he'd agree that he's not the guy for peace time politics, though he's who Id want facing down the Desolation. 

Kaladin is the right kind of leader on the Battlefield but is equally unsuited for council chamber politics, and isnt ready to lead nations (though at the end of the series he very well could be).

Ditto on the flip-side for Jasnah, she's ready to lead a faction of the coalition and great with the poltical side, but I wouldnt yet want her having the final word on the fate of the world. 

Lightsong would be horrified by the idea of anyone following him anywhere, which makes him a great religions leader (basically leads by accidental example) and Id love to see him resurrected on Scadrial as a prophet of the Path.  But he'd be terrible as a traditional leader of a nation, he doesnt have the focus and/or drive, and worst case would devolve into Elhokar (well meaning, but prone to missing key things).

Kelsier is a hard No for me, at least until we know details of what he was up to after Era1.  He was in many ways closer to a necessary monster than a good, long-term leader. Although he led a Crew with a specific goal quite well, he was unabashedly narrow in his thinking, and a bit of a psychopath (just because they make successful CEO's doesnt mean I actually want them in charge). 

It's been a really long time since I read Elantris, so Im going to abstain from comment on Raoden.  He was good at giving people Purpose and direction, which counts for a lot. 

 

Other: 

I think Vasher (Warbreaker and Peacegiver) deserves to be on the list, honestly.  And Mr.T should probably make the list to represent the pragmatists, though I wouldnt personally vote for him.  I think Susebron has a pretty good start, but he's reeeaaaallly young in almost every sense of the word.

[Fezzik]

Mr. T: leading a remnant of humanity.

[beantheboy12]

Kaladin has the most leadership skills, turning a group of stubborn bridgemen into well... The great bridge four. Though Elend was able to take control of a revolting city.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

I'm actually kinda surprised that Kelsier has tied for first place, at least for now. Sure, he led the gave the skaa hope but did he really lead them? I think, in reality, he's just very good at getting people to do what he wants and think in a way that's beneficial to him. And I'm not trying to downgrade what he did or call him selfish. I just don't think he would do a particularly good job actually ruling. I mean, can you imagine what would have happened had he taken Rashek's place? Kelsier is a fun guy to be around (unless you happen to be a noble) and he definitely possesses the charisma that inspires leadership, but I would never trust him to take control of a country. 

[GhoX]

I personally think Queen Fen should be on this list.

But otherwise, they all have their strengths and weaknesses as leaders. Dalinar, with his experience on the battlefield and in general life, has the capacity to see things from a broader and more long-term perspective than Kaladin, who has natural leadership potential but is too young to have as much experience as Dalinar. That being said, both of these men are soldiers, and both lack the political perspective of Jasnah or Sarene. 

Jasnah and Kelsier are both willing to sacrifice lives for their own cause, and this ruthlessness is useful during the times in which their respective books are set, due to dire circumstances. Both are very intelligent and aware of the significance of their cause, and the role that they play in politics and society. They both act as icons for their own beliefs, and hold a certain degree of power over the people. However, in the long run, both lack the overall compassion that we see in Raoden that makes a good leader. 

Raoden was raised in the court, and thus has significant knowledge of the political climate regarding Arelon. He is able to take a minority and empower them through tactfully removing his opponents to regain control and inspire his people. He, like Elend, cares for the lives of people and tries to see the motives behind people's actions and situations before judging them. Based off what we have seen in the Cosmere books so far, I would have to say that Raoden or Sarene make the more well-rounded leaders, although Jasnah would be the best leader in current situations. 

But Queen Fen. Enough said there. 

[ND103]

3 hours ago, Ashertliden said:

*Cough* The Lord Ruler *Cough*

That's where my vote goes. Because a utopia can't particularly exist in my opinion (based on my world view, and my subjective experience of life so far). 

In any non utopic world, I'd back the lord ruler. In terms of experience he lasted a thousand years. Yes the society he created was imperfect, but any society will end up imperfect. He did however have a bigger plan for the survival of the species. He managed to create the exact situation that led to humanity thriving post ruin. He was in a sense stagnant for a thousand years but he had picked up a sliver of preservation so that's kinda the shard I reckon... 

Yes he was ultimately defeated, so he's not all powerful, and his ideology was not going to last forever. But he did plan for that eventuality, so he did recognise it even if he didn't improve on his ways (which could've been preservation). 

That said, would'nt want to be a skaa under him. But then again, would anyone really want to be a commoner under any of the above leaders? Not me. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by ND103
Typo

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Voted Dalinar but could easily justify a Raoden vote as well. Kelsier has accomplished more than either, but hes not really a leader. He's a religious icon and a tremendous inspiration to the people of Scadrial, but he doesn't lead them.

3 hours ago, Ashertliden said:

*Cough* The Lord Ruler *Cough*

He did rule longer than anyone on the list, and with more absolutism. You could easily attribute all of the terrible things that happened under his rule to the fact that the planet was nearly uninhabitable. Who knows, maybe Rashek was planning to fix Scadrial and bring about utopia with his next bath in the Well. He did have 1000 years to plan.

[Turtle373]

I didn't put Susebron or Vasher on the list because we never actually see them lead, I didn't think about Queen Fen, King T, or Lord Ruler cause I didn't think about them. I don't think Kelsier is that good of a leader, sure he inspired a revolt, but he didn't lead that revolt, he only planned it.

[+Ark1002]

6 hours ago, Ashertliden said:

*Cough* The Lord Ruler *Cough*

*Double takes*

Wow, that's actually... the best example. TLR for the win!

[Jace21]

There's no definitive answer here, it depends what they're doing and who they are leading. To a certain degree it depends on when in their lives we're talking about to.

Dalinar, Kaladin, Raoden, Kelsier, Elend could all take it depending on the situation.

[Turtle373]

1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

There's no definitive answer here, it depends what they're doing and who they are leading. To a certain degree it depends on when in their lives we're talking about to.

Dalinar, Kaladin, Raoden, Kelsier, Elend could all take it depending on the situation.

I left it vague like this on purpose because I was curious on who you guys thought was the best with their combinations of strengths and flaws. You can focus on battles, or political or motivational, just whoever you think does it best.

[goody153]

Depends on who is leading what kind of group of people/organization.

Elend might be better than everybody in terms of economic, technological and diplomatic relations(as he shows to be the best in a democratic setting). 

Kelsier is not qualified to rule anything that isn't a society that would burn itself out eventually. So he can't lead a stable society without messing it up rightly.

Dalinar isn't a leader for the modern age but he certainly understood how to lead in the timeline of stormlight archives. He is an effective leader even in the state of war. 

Elhokar seems like mediocre feudal age ruler.

Kaladin isn't meant to lead anything but a squad of soldiers or an army. 

Raoden/Sarene - dunno haven't read Elantris

Lightsong is not the leadertype i suppose.

So answer should be either Dalinar or Elend depending on how the state of the world goes

10 hours ago, Ashertliden said:

*Cough* The Lord Ruler *Cough*

Wait nevermind. This has to be the correct answer.

Rashek storming knows what's up(he even managed to build the most stable and longest running empire ever lol)

He isn't called The Lord Ruler for no reason lol

Edited January 22, 2019 by goody153

[Toaster Retribution]

I vote for Kelsier. Partially because I love the guy, and partially because he is able to inspire or trick people into doing basically anything. He is also prepared to go very far to aid his followers, and is a brilliant strategist. He is also competent enough to deal with basically any threat.

Raoden is brilliant as well, however. And while I don’t think they are the best, Hrathen and Gavilar certainly deserves to be mentioned. 

[Jace21]

9 hours ago, goody153 said:

Kelsier is not qualified to rule anything that isn't a society that would burn itself out eventually. So he can't lead a stable society without messing it up rightly.

Ruling =/= Leading

Thats where the ambiguity come in. While Kel may not make a good ruler (though he seems to do ok based on what little we know of the Sovreign), that was not the question.

Put Kel in a situation where he needs to inspire and lead a small group of people to achieve a specific goal and he would excel, as much or more than the other options.

Could any of Brandons other characters have organised the overthrow of the Final Empire? Probably not.

The fact that he does makes an argument for Kel > Rashek when it comes to leadership too.

[Zephrun’s Imperium]

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I vote for Kelsier. Partially because I love the guy, and partially because he is able to inspire or trick people into doing basically anything. He is also prepared to go very far to aid his followers, and is a brilliant strategist. He is also competent enough to deal with basically any threat.

1

That's the problem. Tricking people just isn't the same. If you're going to lead, you want the trust of the people. And while I completely agree with his strategic ability, I don't think he could very well shield an empire against three storming armies. You'll want someone like Dalinar for that. Or better yet, someone who could avoid that situation all together. I agree with @Jace21 Kell is good for leading small groups and being inspiring. 

[Pathfinder]

I say Jasnah. She has the experience from being raised as a leader, she has shown she can bring together disparate groups to work together (ardents, stormwardens and scholars) under her, she is respectful of others beliefs, she is progressive, and intelligent. So I vote other for Jasnah. 

[Kon-Tiki]

Kaladin wouldn't even really run an army well. He can barely run a batallion. He's a fantastic battlefield commander but that's like 10% of running an army

EDIT: Not only that, but he has no experience dealing with multi-front battles or deploying Shardbearers.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Kon-Tiki

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Shard of Thought said:

That's the problem. Tricking people just isn't the same. If you're going to lead, you want the trust of the people. And while I completely agree with his strategic ability, I don't think he could very well shield an empire against three storming armies. You'll want someone like Dalinar for that. Or better yet, someone who could avoid that situation all together. I agree with @Jace21 Kell is good for leading small groups and being inspiring. 

I see your points. Tricking isn’t leading, but Kelsier can trick the enemy. And he would have dealt with the armies by simply assassinating the leaders and create infighting between the generals. The one thing he couldn’t feasibly have done in that situation is take out the koloss, but that was never about leadership. 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I say Jasnah. She has the experience from being raised as a leader, she has shown she can bring together disparate groups to work together (ardents, stormwardens and scholars) under her, she is respectful of others beliefs, she is progressive, and intelligent. So I vote other for Jasnah. 

I kinda disagree here. Jasnah is good at getting people to do stuff, but that isn’t leading. You need social abilities to lead, and Jasnah isn’t really inspiring or socially skilled in that way. I think we will see flaws in her leadership in SA4.