Rock and Cultivation's Perpendicularity

[BrightnessSamantha Grand]

I've been listening to WOR on Audible for the 4th or 5th time  and this particular scene has really stuck with me this time around. Rock is telling the story on how the Horneater Peaks were created by all these beings (obviously spren or shards even...?) How he went into the Horneater ocean and met the spren that lived there. He talks about how this spren doesn't want to be known, or something along those lines.

The facts that Rock can see spren, he even mentions that the ocean has something to do with it and he hasn't been truthful about his past make me think there's something more going on here. 

We know that the Horneater ocean is Cultivation's perpendicularity so this mighty spren that lives there has to be related to Cultivation, right? 

With that said, I would love to hear some of your theories or WOB that I might have missed on this subject! 

[Kon-Tiki Misting]

Horneaters and Herdazians have Listener blood in them. Its why the Herdazians have strange fingernails and its why the Horneaters can eat shells and see spren.

Quote

Questioner

I really like how you have different fingernails. *inaudible* Because I barely noticed, rereading for Stormlight, you've got the He--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Herdazians. 

Questioner

Herdazians.

Brandon Sanderson

That's because Herdazians are-- have Parshendi blood. Parshmen blood. They're one of the halv-- they're one of the mixed breeds. Horneaters *inaudible* too.

Questioner

Horneaters, um.. they're not *inaudible* with Parshendi are they?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, they are.

Questioner

That's where they get the red hair then.

Brandon Sanderson

That's where they get the red hair. And they actually can-- they call them Horneaters because they eat shell, and they actually can metabolize it which humans can't. Yeah. They've actually got, actually-- they've actually got different teeth than humans have.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

[insert_anagram_here Vanisher]

I wonder if they got gemhearts too and if that's what gives them the ability to see spren. 

[BrightnessSamantha Grand]

23 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Horneaters and Herdazians have Listener blood in them. Its why the Herdazians have strange fingernails and its why the Horneaters can eat shells and see spren.

I did not know that Horneaters and Herdazians have Listener blood.  I guess it makes sense now that I think of it. 

1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I wonder if they got gemhearts too and if that's what gives them the ability to see spren. 

I don't think they have gemhearts though.  I think it has to do with the Horneater Peaks and Cultivation's perpendicularity.  Rock even says the Horneater Ocean is part of the reason that he can see spren.

[Ciridae Svrakiss]

I'd have to go back and check, but I think what Rock mentions is that he met a God coming out of one of the lakes on the peaks, which was actually Hoid coming out of the Perpendicularity. Or do you mean a different scene? Iirc he does mention spren of the ocean in the origin story of the horneaters, but they refuse to help them because humans would just catch them with hooks. But I don't think he ever saw them, they're just part of the story. 

[Weltall Voidbringer]

Rock's ability to see spren isn't universal among his people, to the point that they have a special word for it, alaii’iku. It's not unique to him and he doesn't actually say that it's something he gained by swimming near Cultivation's Perpendicularity. Kaladin assumes that to be the case but Rock deflects the question by saying it's not part of the story he's trying to tell. All he does say is 'Is not part of story. It is... involved' which in context does not necessarily mean 'the waters were involved' but could be taken to simply mean 'it's complicated'. So we're not sure how he gained that ability, only that he doesn't want to talk about it. Given that Oathbringer practically hits us over the head with the fact that Rock is holding things back from Bridge Four, his reticence on the subject of seeing the spren might be related to the stuff he's concealing about his past.

Oh, and that god that he talked about meeting? It was Hoid. You can figure this out pretty easily from Rock's description and the way Sigzil reacts to it. This may or may not count as one of 'the last seven times' he got involved in religion and it lead to disaster, as he recounts to Shallan in Oathbringer.

[BrightnessSamantha Grand]

1 minute ago, Ciridae said:

I'd have to go back and check, but I think what Rock mentions is that he met a God coming out of one of the lakes on the peaks, which was actually Hoid coming out of the Perpendicularity. Or do you mean a different scene? Iirc he does mention spren of the ocean in the origin story of the horneaters, but they refuse to help them because humans would just catch them with hooks. But I don't think he ever saw them, they're just part of the story. 

I have been trying to find the exact quote of it.  I'll probably have to dig out the book.  I'm pretty sure what I'm talking about was not Hoid coming out of the Perpendicularity.

[StrikerEZ Mistborn]

@BrightnessSamantha Personally, I think that most of the story of the creation of the Horneater Peaks is just the Unkalaki’s version of the creation story. And I don’t think there was any one spren that the Unkalaki asked for help, it was the gods of the ocean, trees, and mountains that they asked for help. I definitely think Cultivation made the Horneater Peaks the way they are, though I don’t think Rock’s weirdness with seeing spren is because he swam in the perpendicularity.

[BrightnessSamantha Grand]

"You can see the spren," Kaladin pressed, "because of what happened to you in these waters."

"Is not part of story," Rock said, eyeing him. "It is....involved. I will say no more of this thing."

Page 540 on the Kindle.  Chapter 46, Patriots

@Weltall  The ability may not be universal among the Horneaters but Rock does say that swimming in the ocean was involved.

"I'd like to visit," Lopen said.  "Go for a dip myself."

"Ha! Is death to one not of our people,"  Rock said. "I could not let you swim....

To sum it up Sigzil said that it's death because the Horneaters kill anyone who tries to swim in the emerald pools.

@StrikerEZ When Rock is saying gods he is referring to spren.  Kaladin even asks him if he means gods like Syl.  He follows Kaladin's gaze as he looks at Syl and says "These are gods," Rock said following Kaladin's gaze. "Yes. Some gods, though, they are more powerful than others.  The tana'kai, he sought the strongest among them....

Rock frequently talks about how his people consider spren gods.

 

Edited to add:

After re reading the passage, it was definitely Hoid coming from the perpendicularity. I must of mis remembered it.  There is still more than meets the eye here.  Why would the Unkalaki kill anyone, other than their own, who attempted to swim there.  Why is he so vague and secretive when talking about swimming in the ocean?

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by BrightnessSamantha

[Kon-Tiki Misting]

It might not be particularly helpful to this thread, but the Shin also worship stone spren in the mountains

[BrightnessSamantha Grand]

@Kon-Tiki I wonder if the shin are related to the parshendi as well? 

Mild OB spolier

Spoiler

Wasn't Shinovar supposed to be the designated human area of Roshar?

I can't help but wonder if there isn't something there as well....

[Kon-Tiki Misting]

I think the Shin are the least likely to have Listener blood. That's the original land humanity was given when the immigrated from Ashyn. The Shin never left, never intermingled. Their flora and fauna are Earth-like, not rocky and crustacean like the rest of Roshar. Their weirdness is that they look like small bald white people in a world where most people look like what we on Earth would call Asian or African