ZenBossanova Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 While Hemalurgy is a useful and versatile magic system, charging spikes is harder to do without large scale murder. But is it impossible? Could we spike an elderly misting, and not remove the spike until death? We know spiking AND REMOVING THE SPIKE is fatal. But only inserting a spike should not necessarily be fatal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 IIRC, there's a way to survive Hemalurgy, so it's not always fatal. It's not pleasant though. I think there was a thread a while back about something similar, but I can't find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted January 22, 2019 Report Share Posted January 22, 2019 In-world, in Era 2, Spook advocated for asking elderly Allomancers and Feruchemists to sacrifice themselves for just that purpose. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goody153 Posted January 24, 2019 Report Share Posted January 24, 2019 On 1/22/2019 at 11:42 PM, Invocation said: In-world, in Era 2, Spook advocated for asking elderly Allomancers and Feruchemists to sacrifice themselves for just that purpose. Yeah this seems a practical application but you'd to have a really strict and really monitored activity about this. It'll be similar to organ donation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 Not sure if they are aware "in world", but "out world" we know as per WoB using hemalurgy regardless if you survive or you are elderly and going to die anyway, "you" end up horribly mutilated. So spiking the elderly before they pass is still harming them irrevocably. I honestly believe there is no way hemalurgy as we know it can ever be ethical or not harmful. I state that viewing medallions as a separate creature, even if they were potentially developed through hemalurgy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govir Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 I think the main question here to determine the viability of this is if you can "pre-spike" people, i.e. spike someone as if you were stealing something, but never remove the spike until they die of natural causes. In my opinion, I don't think this is possible. I don't have any proof to this assumption, but we've never seen anyone even attempt it. The closest is when Spook is given Pewter burning ability, and that guy died pretty quickly as far as I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Govir said: I think the main question here to determine the viability of this is if you can "pre-spike" people, i.e. spike someone as if you were stealing something, but never remove the spike until they die of natural causes. In my opinion, I don't think this is possible. I don't have any proof to this assumption, but we've never seen anyone even attempt it. The closest is when Spook is given Pewter burning ability, and that guy died pretty quickly as far as I remember. My instinct is to say no. Spiking requires intent. You have to intend to spike someone for an ability. Piercing them at the right spot is what determines the ability, so to me the moment the spike pierces the right location with the right intent, the ability or what have you is then stored in the spike. All leaving the spike in the person accomplishes is prevents decay of the charge in the spike while surrounded by blood. We do not know the method required to keep a person alive after they are spiked. The implication to me is something must be done to prevent them from dying from the removal of the attribute, not just the physical removal of the spike. Either way it still would not be ethical because the person's "soul" who was spiked would be irrevocably damaged. Edited January 31, 2019 by Pathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantus Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 I think the act of implanting the spike itself, regardless of when it's removed, is going to be the cause of the damage. Hemalurgy works on the principle that the metal can access the spirit-web directly using the blood, and the "charge" that is put in the metal is itself the Investiture that comprises the piece of spirit-web being removed, such that that act of charging the spike is removing a piece of the spiritweb, regardless of whether the spike is immediately removed from the victim's body or not. So you've either stabbed them with the full Intent to remove a piece of their soul in the process, or you've simply stabbed them with a pointy object. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goody153 Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 Yeah intent is pretty important to Hemalurgy (i'd say just as important as the bindpoint and what you are stabbing him/her with) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted February 6, 2019 Report Share Posted February 6, 2019 Spike them while they tap a gold medallion. Then reinsert the spike and let them keep it until their natural death. This would let them survive the spiking and let them keep their spirit intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightblood Posted February 6, 2019 Report Share Posted February 6, 2019 12 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: Spike them while they tap a gold medallion. Then reinsert the spike and let them keep it until their natural death. This would let them survive the spiking and let them keep their spirit intact. Ummmm... I don't think so. Your still ripping out their spirit web, It might be able to heal the hole but I think that in most cases, spiking them straight up kills them. It rips apart their spirit to a point where you can no longer live. WoB say that it is possible to spike them and not die just extremely difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted February 6, 2019 Report Share Posted February 6, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Lightblood said: Ummmm... I don't think so. Your still ripping out their spirit web, It might be able to heal the hole but I think that in most cases, spiking them straight up kills them. It rips apart their spirit to a point where you can no longer live. WoB say that it is possible to spike them and not die just extremely difficult. That’s the point of the F-gold medallion. Keep them alive through the process of spiking them. Then reinsert the piece of soul you took so that they can remain whole until they die. People die from getting spiked because generally they’re getting stabbed through the heart. Not a big deal for a bloodmaker. Edited February 6, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightblood Posted February 6, 2019 Report Share Posted February 6, 2019 57 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said: That’s the point of the F-gold medallion. Keep them alive through the process of spiking them. Then reinsert the piece of soul you took so that they can remain whole until they die. People die from getting spiked because generally they’re getting stabbed through the heart. Not a big deal for a bloodmaker. I have an update! The coppermind says "Damage to the soul, such as that caused by Hemalurgy, can be healed by Bloodmakers." So you wouldn't even need to re-insert the spike back into the person you would just need them to keep tapping gold. My question now is if it heals the spirit then could we have an unlimited spike factory? Like does it fix the soul so that its still a coinshot for instance and you could spike him again for another charged spike? Or when it heals the spirit does come back as a normal person? I don't see why it would but when we get this far into Hemalurgy I always like to leave myself room for doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordNimiForPresident Posted February 7, 2019 Report Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Lightblood said: I have an update! The coppermind says "Damage to the soul, such as that caused by Hemalurgy, can be healed by Bloodmakers." So you wouldn't even need to re-insert the spike back into the person you would just need them to keep tapping gold. My question now is if it heals the spirit then could we have an unlimited spike factory? Like does it fix the soul so that its still a coinshot for instance and you could spike him again for another charged spike? Or when it heals the spirit does come back as a normal person? I don't see why it would but when we get this far into Hemalurgy I always like to leave myself room for doubt. I've always assumed that we are misunderstanding Brandon when it comes to healing from Hemalurgy. It would be story breaking if you could just circle spike someone and make unlimited metalborn. It wouldn't really make sense anyway. Healing in the Cosmere depends on having your Spiritual Ideal self as a template for the regrowth. If you tear part of that off, what are you using as a template to grow it back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossamund Posted February 7, 2019 Report Share Posted February 7, 2019 I believe that repaired spirit web is supposed to be like scar tissue. There's not a gaping hole in you but it's still not functioning quite right. Beside we don't know how much investiture it takes to repair a spirit web, maybe it takes a years worth of healing in which case even with perfect healing farming people wouldn't be very practical. So long as you can't make spikes at a silly rate farming people wouldn't be too world breaking, after all spikes can be made through breeding and other op things like compounding exist.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walin Posted February 7, 2019 Report Share Posted February 7, 2019 I think that taking attributes is way too hard to do without irrevocably damaging people. Harvesting people at the end of their lives, like having a Hemalurgic Donor card, and a spike set in emergency response teams, is what I foresee in at least a few cities or countries on Scadrial in Era 3 (2.5). Harvesting gold spikes is just about the only one that I can justify repeatedly farming people for; I'm going to go with what Rossamund said, that farming a person multiple times isn't practical. While it'd be unethical, perhaps during wars (especially in early Era 2 where trench warfare is still a future possibility) soldiers could have reloadable bayonets for spiking enemies with? Healing victims of spike damage is a good thing, though I have no idea how viable it is to actually be implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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