Zinnwalder

Did Honor break an oath?

22 posts in this topic

So, here's a question I've been wondering. Did Honor break an oath. We know that at the breaking of adonalsium the shards agreed to go their separate ways. But then we see that Honor and Cultivation ended up on Roshar. On top of that, Honor then traps Odium in the same system. Making for 3 shards in the same area. Now I think there is some wiggle room when it comes to trapping odium, and how this can still be construed as honorable and keeping with his promise, but what was his reasoning for sharing the planet with cultivation?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

source

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, to be fair, if Honor arrived first and then others showed up, he wouldn't have broken his oath. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems pretty clear to me that Tanavast and the vessel of Cultivation (I don't think we know her name) were romantically involved. My strongest actual evidence for that is that Wyndle says he thinks Cultivation has abandoned humanity after Tanavast died, which admittedly isn't that strong, but I don't think its a real reach to speculate in that direction

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kon-Tiki is right, Honor and Cultivation were in a long-lasting relationship and it's very possible that they were married (or the equivalent) and that lead Honor to consider them the same, so there was that loophole.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that one of two scenarios happened. Either

  1. the original Vessels made the pact before they took up the Shards, which means that they wouldn’t have to deal with the Shardic restriction of adhering to oaths; or
  2. the original Vessels made the pact after they took up the Shards, but the wording was something like “we will not interfere in other Shards’ business,” which still allows for Shards to work together, like Honor with Cultivation and Ruin with Preservation.

It’s probably neither of these, and Brandon will do something much better anyway. :P

Edited by StrikerEZ
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or it wasn't even an actual pact, just a kind of general consensus.

"Hey we should probably go our separate ways, right guys?"

"Uhh, let me think about that (nope)."

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My headcanon on this has been that Tanavast had a different... oath, let's say, he saw as being more important. Maritalrital vows, for example.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could it be that Honor didn't know that Cultivation followed him to Roshar?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Could it be that Honor didn't know that Cultivation followed him to Roshar?

They came together.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always wondered if Honor's power might have been based on the moon Nomon rather than the planet proper.  That might explain the drifting perpendicularity on Roshar's surface.  Theoretically that would give him and Cultivation enough separation to satisfy the "not in the same place" requirement.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I've always wondered if Honor's power might have been based on the moon Nomon rather than the planet proper.  That might explain the drifting perpendicularity on Roshar's surface.  Theoretically that would give him and Cultivation enough separation to satisfy the "not in the same place" requirement.

I kind of doubt that, given how he Invested as heavily as he did into the highstorms. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding Sanderson's words about Honor wouldn't even think it was a loophole. I kinda get the line of thinking there.

The promise was "to go their own separate ways and not bother each other" which Honor and Cultivation considered themselves as going their own separate ways together. As it was mutually agreed upon that "their separate way" is together like they have been before.

It does beat the oath as they don't even violate it if they believe that the oath is about separate ways not actually as shards.

Edited by goody153
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

source

Correct me if I'm wrong (since I'm not a native English speaker I might be missing something here) but since the original question is about 'when' they arrived wouldn't Sanderson say 'they came together' even if he meant 'they came at the same time' and not necessarily meant they decided to go on Roshar 'together' ? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Correct me if I'm wrong (since I'm not a native English speaker I might be missing something here) but since the original question is about 'when' they arrived wouldn't Sanderson say 'they came together' even if he meant 'they came at the same time' and not necessarily meant they decided to go on Roshar 'together' ? 

Yeah, that’s what ‘they came together’ could mean in that context. But, with the context of other WoBs we have, we know that Honor and Cultivation were romantically involved, even before they became Shards. So, it makes sense that they’d stick together even after becoming Shards.

Quote

StormAtlas(paraphrased)

Were Cultivation and Honor romantically involved?

Brandon Sanderson(paraphrased)

Yes.

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I know that they were romantically involved, but becoming a Vessel changes a person, a Shard is a very powerful thing. As much as they wanted to stay together afterward, in time they would become compelled to follow the Intention of their respective Shards right?

So my completely hypothetical scenario would be that Honor, willing to keep his word, left for Roshar, without noticing that Cultivation was right behind him or maybe arriving in the solar system via another route. I base this on the fact that the Heralds were made with Honor's Investiture only and, correct me if I'm wrong, Cultivation doesn't seem to be involved until the Knight Radiants were created.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The change caused by being a vessel does not appear to be an isntantaneous or even a fast process.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yes, I know that they were romantically involved, but becoming a Vessel changes a person, a Shard is a very powerful thing. As much as they wanted to stay together afterward, in time they would become compelled to follow the Intention of their respective Shards right?

Well apparently Cultivation feels similarly about the Stormfather, who carries Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, to how she did about Tanavast, so IDK...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Yes, I know that they were romantically involved, but becoming a Vessel changes a person, a Shard is a very powerful thing. As much as they wanted to stay together afterward, in time they would become compelled to follow the Intention of their respective Shards right?

It could also be that their intents aren't actually opposed to each other as well so it doesn't matter for them if they sticked together. 

Hell Ruin and Preservation stuck together and they're basically enemies by intent. Oh Dominion and Devotion don't seem complementary too but they found the benefit of sticking together.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Leras and Ati started as enemies. Frost describes Ati as kindly until Ruin eventually overcame him

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, goody153 said:

It could also be that their intents aren't actually opposed to each other as well so it doesn't matter for them if they sticked together. 

Yes indeed, it could've happened either way, I'm just theorizing one (of the many) possible scenario that fits the info we have at this moment.

I meant that Honor's Intent would compel him into keeping his word truthfully (read the 2nd post of the thread) where Cultivation would've been able to 'tweak the rules' (prune), arriving in the Cognitive Realm or on one of the moons in secret, and in doing so still keeping the agreement of the Shards. 

As far as I know, all the Shards were supposed to stick to their word about splitting up, but as you've already mentioned, a lot of them didn't. So either their word isn't as 'sealing' (as Odium told Taravangian in OB - yes it could be a lie anyway) or it is sealing but doesn't surpass the Shard's Intention, they are compelled to follow their honour/passion/etc.

I think the later is a more interesting scenario that's why I'm trying to find a justification of how a Shard would act in that certain way even though it's somehow 'bound by their word'.

5 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Well apparently Cultivation feels similarly about the Stormfather, who carries Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, to how she did about Tanavast, so IDK...

I remember something like that and I've pulled the WoB below. It's important to re-read them once in a while because we sometimes remember what we've interpreted out of one instead of what was actually said.

Quote

WeiryWriter

What are Cultivation's feelings with regards to the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

Cultivation's feelings... Cultivation is, *long pause* I just have to decide how I can say things that are not spoilers. Cultivation-- The Stormfather reminds her of certain things about someone else she knew, and she feels the same way about the Stormfather in some ways as this person that she knew.

JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014)
 

Especially since Sanderson seems very reluctant to answer, I think it's important to notice the wording used here. It's talking about 'certain things' and 'in some ways' about a person that 'she knew'. It's as vague as it can get really.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the pact was not “go their separate ways” but rather a pact of non-interference. So it would be entirely consistent to be on the same planet, so long as they didn’t interfere with one another. And, given how we’ve seen Cultivation and Honor’s magic and spren act thus far, it seems like they upheld that pact. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.