If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[CrazyRioter]

Spren aren't perfect but I would say they normally do have pretty good judgement. They are drawn or not drawn to certain people based on their behaviour. I would say it's at least highly suggestive of his basic compatibility. He might have some work to do to progress, but so have all our Radiant main characters.

Edited February 6, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Guest]

Who all at least have some idealism in their bones, who believe in something, an idea. I don't see anything like that in Adolin's actions. He can't even adhere to the basic Codes of War. He can't take responsibility for anything. He doesn't want to and there is nothing wrong with that - I see him as a free spirit, who doesn't like constraints. It just doesn't work for Radiants that way, whose Oaths are binding with dire consequences if broken.

Perhaps Adolin can believably grow out of that, but it is something, that is deeply rooted in his personality.

[CrazyRioter]

22 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Who all at least have some idealism in their bones, who believe in something, an idea. I don't see anything like that in Adolin's actions. He can't even adhere to the basic Codes of War. He can't take responsibility for anything. He doesn't want to and there is nothing wrong with that - I see him as a free spirit, who doesn't like constraints. It just doesn't work for Radiants that way, whose Oaths are binding with dire consequences if broken.

Perhaps Adolin can believably grow out of that, but it is something, that is deeply rooted in his personality.

Lift doesn't like constraints and doesn't like people relying on her because she's afraid she'll let them down. They're somewhat similar in that regard actually.

Adolin's issue isn't actually that he doesn't want to adhere to a higher ideal, he just doesn't see himself as worthy of such things. Deep down he lacks confidence in his own abilities, independent of what his rank, privilege and Shards have earned him. He also judges himself based on what Dalinar wants him to be, and feels like a failure for not being the person Dalinar wants him to be. I think Dalinar has projected onto Adolin the person he wishes he'd been when he was younger, which is obviously bad for both of them because Adolin isn't and can't be that person.

These are the major obstacles he faces.

Edited February 6, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Void89]

14 hours ago, deacon said:

Hmm, I guess I'll just disagree. But my point was addressed to Void, who was talking about becoming a Knight Radiant in general. I didn't say anything about Edgedancers. Oh, well!

Was talking about edgedancers as well, I thought that was obvious given the topic and the ideals I wrote down after the first, my bad

 

Also, because it's somewhat relevant and fitting

Oh, Adolin, Shallan thought. He’d arrived at a theory he liked, and now wouldn’t let it go. It was a common mistake warned of in her scientific books.

[RayW2]

For some reasons Adolin is very unsympathetic character for me. Adolin is 24, he's a grown man, but he has no responsibilities, he is immature and shallow. He claims that he doesn't want to take King's responsibilities because if he does so he won't have enough free time for entertaining. I mean, this is his own words. 

In comparison with backstories of some characters Adolin have had a normal life, and all speculations that it was the opposite sounds weird for me.

Generally I don't enjoy Adolin. He's lack of depth. Both a character, and a person. I understand that Sanderson perhaps didn't bother to give him strong characteristics as he wanted to write a "light" hero to provide some balance. And as a person Adolin is just shallow. There's not much in him. He never thinks about...I don't know, about this world around him. Compare him with curious Shallan or thoughtful Dalinar and...I'd say I don't enjoy reading him. His povs are lack of everything. Lack of thoughts, lack of feelings.

This story with dead spren in blade reeds like deus ex machina. Boring.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Greywatch
Staff edit

[Guest]

@RayW2

Judging from the amount of upvotes in this short amount of time, it seems like you stated something many people are afraid to say.

Anyway, I agree.

[CrazyRioter]

5 hours ago, RayW2 said:

 

In comparison with backstories of some characters Adolin have had a normal life, and all speculations that it was the opposite sounds weird for me.

His dad was either absent or alcoholic for most of his childhood and adolescence and his mom is dead. Clearly the epitome of a normal, happy life.He has major self-esteem issues that are coming increasingly to the forefront as of Oathbringer. He's only a shallow character if you read on a surface level and don't read deeper. And any character is 'shallow" if you only look at the surface layer. That's part of the reason I like him, he looks like the stereotypical self-confident jock, but he really isn't.

Regardless, this is getting a little off topic for this thread, there's other threads to discuss Adolin's character in general.

Edited February 6, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[MistboreD]

I agree, people put strong emphasis on it while it isn't that important.

Dalinar didn't have parents, his mother also died when he was a kid, maybe even younger than Adolin, his father was absent and didn't have time for Dalinar, then he got a brain injury during on of the duels and...well, you know.

I never seen someone talking about it and use it to victimize Dalinar or pity him.

[CrazyRioter]

1 minute ago, MistboreD said:

I agree, people put strong emphasis on it while it isn't that important.

Dalinar didn't have parents, his mother also died when he was a kid, maybe even younger than Adolin, his father was absent and didn't have time for Dalinar, then he got a brain injury during on of the duels and...well, you know.

I never seen someone talking about it and use it to victimize Dalinar or pity him.

I don't pity Adolin or see him as a victim. It's merely that he hasn't lived the perfect life some people insist he has.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't pity Adolin or see him as a victim. It's merely that he hasn't lived the perfect life some people insist he has.

Rayw2 didn't say Adolin lived a perfect life. He said:

"In comparison with backstories of some characters Adolin have had a normal life"

I took that to mean he felt Adolin's younger life was not as extreme as let us say Kaladin, Shallan, or Dalinar. 

[MistboreD]

21 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't pity Adolin or see him as a victim. It's merely that he hasn't lived the perfect life some people insist he has.

No, but some does.

As for perfect life, it (post above) was more about more normal and stable life if compare it with other characters.

[CrazyRioter]

17 minutes ago, MistboreD said:

No, but some does.

As for perfect life, it (post above) was more about more normal and stable life if compare it with other characters.

Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar are extreme cases. Just because his life wasn't as rough as theirs doesn't mean it was fine and dandy.

And this is still off topic and should be moved to another topic where it can be discussed without derailing this topic further.

Edited February 6, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar are extreme cases. Just because his life wasn't as rough as theirs doesn't mean it was fine and dandy.

And this is still off topic and should be moved to another topic where it can be discussed without derailing this topic further.

Again, I feel you are taking Rayw2's statement out of context. He never said Adolin's life by itself was fine and dandy. He said in comparison to some characters it could be seen as normal. I am only stressing that difference because things could get heated and misunderstood if the conversation continues on that misunderstood premise. 

[Brightness Jencee]

1 hour ago, CrazyRioter said:

His dad was either absent or alcoholic for most of his childhood and adolescence and his mom is dead. Clearly the epitome of a normal, happy life.He has major self-esteem issues that are coming increasingly to the forefront as of Oathbringer. He's only a shallow character if you read on a surface level and don't read deeper. And any character is 'shallow" if you only look at the surface layer. That's part of the reason I like him, he looks like the stereotypical self-confident jock, but he really isn't.

Regardless, this is getting a little off topic for this thread, there's other threads to discuss Adolin's character in general.

I agree, not to mention that his dad remembers nothing of his beloved mother's how weird would that be? I also don't think he's a victim, I just don't think he's lived a perfect sheltered life.  Everyone has a different story and different obstacles to overcome.

I've been thinking about whether or not Adolin even personifies the Edgedancer ideals that we know so far...

1. I will remember those who have been forgotten.  I guess you could count remembering his mom who his dad had forgotten. Adolin helped the whore being abused by Sadeas's men. In a way, he remembers Maya, who has been forgotten by everyone.

2. I will listen to those who have been ignored. He listens to Maya once he really knows she is real. Adolin listens to Renarin, who is ignored by pretty much everyone, all the time and values his input.

Any other thoughts about how he does or does not personify the edgedancer ideals? It seem he must personify them to an extent in order to revive Maya since she is an Edgedancer siren.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Brightness Jencee said:

It seem he must personify them to an extent in order to revive Maya since she is an Edgedancer siren.

Does it?

That, yet again, still is only a theory.

[CrazyRioter]

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Does it?

That, yet again, still is only a theory.

it's currently the best guess we have for how one revives a dead spren.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

it's currently the best guess we have for how one revives a dead spren.

Best guess, in your opinion. Personally I feel my theory is the best guess. Everyone has a right to their interpretation. 

[Jofwu]

22 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

it's currently the best guess we have for how one revives a dead spren.

It seems highly likely that you have to BOND the spren in order to revive them, but I don't think that implies you have to exhibit the proper ideals. (which seems to be what SLNC was questioning) Personally, I'd go so far as to say it's downright likely that people can become Radiants of a specific order without fitting that order at all.

There are some less significant pieces of evidence in favor of the idea, I think, but Venli is a pretty strong case for it. She is VERY different from Eshonai, to the point that I really don't see how a single spren can see the Willshaper ideals (whatever they are, exactly) clearly in both of them. So it seems to me that there's some flexibility.

Mechanically speaking, I don't see any reason whatsoever as to why any person can't bond with a spren of any order. That's simply a decision for the spren (and perhaps in part for the human) as far as I can tell. If the person doesn't fit into the order, it would mean that they will have a hard time advancing, and the spren might see that as a reason not to choose that person. And it seems like the spren would be less likely to choose someone who doesn't fit their own inherent values from the start. But I don't see any reason why they couldn't choose whoever they please, if they have some motivation that supersedes all that logic.

So whether Adolin fits or not, I think Maya is entirely capable of bonding with him.

[Alderant]

25 minutes ago, Brightness Jencee said:

I agree, not to mention that his dad remembers nothing of his beloved mother's how weird would that be? I also don't think he's a victim, I just don't think he's lived a perfect sheltered life.  Everyone has a different story and different obstacles to overcome.

I've been thinking about whether or not Adolin even personifies the Edgedancer ideals that we know so far...

1. I will remember those who have been forgotten.  I guess you could count remembering his mom who his dad had forgotten. Adolin helped the whore being abused by Sadeas's men. In a way, he remembers Maya, who has been forgotten by everyone.

2. I will listen to those who have been ignored. He listens to Maya once he really knows she is real. Adolin listens to Renarin, who is ignored by pretty much everyone, all the time and values his input.

Any other thoughts about how he does or does not personify the edgedancer ideals? It seem he must personify them to an extent in order to revive Maya since she is an Edgedancer siren.

 

I don't have a lot to add here, I think the discussion is generally at a standstill. One side believes that Adolin is well on his way, the other does not.

My two cents:

Edgedancer ideals

1. I will remember those who have been forgotten. I've seen this debated both ways to little effect. There is some evidence that Adolin "remembers" the forgotten, but there is also evidence he does not. Yes, Adolin helped the whore, but so many who use this example fail to remember that Kaladin was there and was trying to make his way to defend her when Adolin intervened--and arguably, it's conceivable that Adolin only intervened because it was Sadeas's man, and not because the whore was being abused. There's not enough textual evidence to confirm or deny this. We do have textual evidence that Adolin thinks of the men who died at the Tower less than either Dalinar or Kaladin--and Adolin should have been much higher in this regard because of how many he knew and interacted with personally. So I'll leave that there.

2. I will listen to those who have been ignored. There isn't really any textual evidence to support that Adolin "listens" to Maya once he "knows" she is real, aside from the fact that he uses her name instead of simply calling her "his Shardblade". In Words of Radiance, Adolin notes that he never gave the blade a name because he felt that the blade should be called by what the original Knight Radiant had called it. He learns the name--he uses it. Yet, I don't think you could call any Shardblade "forgotten", since every single Shardblade in Alethkar is accounted and has a history. But that's a little pedantic. Moving on.

2a. Renarin. I personally feel that using Renarin as a qualifying factor here is a pretty poor argument. I'd argue that, now that Renarin is a member of Bridge Four, he's found a place that not only is he remembered and listened to, but accepted and cherished in the same way that Adolin has. Also, I'd worry about Brandon's writing ability if Adolin, the "everyman" character of Stormlight, didn't stick up for his brother--doing so is a perfectly normal thing for an older brother to do, and isn't really emblematic of an outstanding and exemplary character trait.

Finally, to say that Adolin must embody Edgedancer traits because he has an Edgedancer deadeye is kind of a logical fallacy. Maya did not choose Adolin--she was given to him after he won her in a duel. This means, since she didn't choose him as her Radiant, that Adolin doesn't have to embody Edgedancer ideals. There's just too much variance and plausibility for both sides to be absolutely definitive in either direction.

Just now, CrazyRioter said:

it's currently the best guess we have for how one revives a dead spren.

I think @SLNC means that the very idea of reviving a dead spren is still only a theory at best. The textual evidence supporting the idea is subjective to too many different interpretations to be adequately confirmed en masse.

[CrazyRioter]

6 minutes ago, Alderant said:

Finally, to say that Adolin must embody Edgedancer traits because he has an Edgedancer deadeye is kind of a logical fallacy. Maya did not choose Adolin--she was given to him after he won her in a duel. This means, since she didn't choose him as her Radiant, that Adolin doesn't have to embody Edgedancer ideals. There's just too much variance and plausibility for both sides to be absolutely definitive in either direction.

We do have the WoB I posted earlier that she might well have chosen to bond with him if she were alive.

[Alderant]

Just now, CrazyRioter said:

We do have the WoB I posted earlier that she might well have chosen to bond with him if she were alive.

We can agree to disagree. Saying "I think so" is hardly definitive, especially with such a pregnant pause in the middle as is in the audio.

[CrazyRioter]

Just now, Alderant said:

We can agree to disagree. Saying "I think so" is hardly definitive, especially with such a pregnant pause in the middle as is in the audio.

probably he was deciding whether to answer that or not.

[Alderant]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

probably he was deciding whether to answer that or not.

Hahaha. Perhaps, but I'd rather not assume. Regardless, "I think so" is by definition not a definitive statement.

Also, I think @Jofwu's point (and a point made previously as well) is applicable to this still. Just because she might have chosen Adolin doesn't necessarily mean he embodies Edgedancer ideals. Spren make mistakes. Spren don't always choose people that match the ideals of the Order they bond.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Alderant
Additional thought.

[CrazyRioter]

Just now, Alderant said:

Hahaha. Perhaps, but I'd rather not assume. Regardless, "I think so" is by definition not a definitive statement.

maybe not but it's pretty suggestive I think. Obviously you disagree.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I think @SLNC means that the very idea of reviving a dead spren is still only a theory at best. The textual evidence supporting the idea is subjective to too many different interpretations to be adequately confirmed en masse.

Kinda.

More the fact, that a bond must form to revive a deadeye is only a theory, that gets thrown around as fact.