If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[insert_anagram_here]

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar grabs Adolin while the blade is still out, and Adolin and Dalinar suddenly hear Maya's voice urging them to talk. Both surprised, Adolin is able to get out of Dalinar's hands and they separate for a bit. They both think on this more with the occasional interaction. Then it happens again. Adolin still not ready to open up to his father but willing to try to figure out what is happening, Dalinar and Adolin begin working together while researching with Shallan, Jasnah and the Stormfather. Through working together they open up, talk, and resolve their issues with each other and resolve to restore Maya.

To each their own, so let me bring you my theoretical scenario.

Adolin mentions that he needed 7 heartbeats to revive Maya but that doesn't seem to work afterward and with the help from Shallan and Jasnah they figure out that Honor's Perpedicularity had probably something to do with it, the Realms were closer together. When Dalinar asks Stormfather if it's possible to help out Adolin with reviving Maya he refuses to offer his powers branding Adolin as 'not of Honor, he is bound to break his oaths'. Dalinar tells Adolin he cannot help, Adolin has a tantrum saying he should've never expected something from Dalinar, he killed Evi after all and leaves. Adolin determined to help Maya, sees Sja-Anat in the mirror, she tells him she has a way to help. End of Book 4.

[CrazyRioter]

Personally I'm imagining him getting beat to crap yet again, and thinking he's worthless. He's on the edge of dying, with his soul unusually open to outside influences, this makes it easier for Maya to get through to him, and push him into believing that he can be worthy if he has the courage to try. He swears the First Ideal, this gives Maya just enough strength, coupled with their desperation to pass him a little Stormlight to save him from bleeding out. He won't be able to access Stormlight regularly at that point but it'll start him on the path to swearing more Ideals.

Something along those lines anyway.

I think I prefer the idea of Adolin basically healing Maya through his own actions because I think he tends to feel like he gets handed everything good that happens to him. I want him to have something he can point to that was unquestionably something that happened because of who he personally is and what he personally did.

[StrikerEZ]

58 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think I prefer the idea of Adolin basically healing Maya through his own actions because I think he tends to feel like he gets handed everything good that happens to him. I want him to have something he can point to that was unquestionably something that happened because of who he personally is and what he personally did.

@Pathfinder This is almost exactly why I feel Adolin needs to revive Maya without any external help. It already feels like a lot of what Adolin has achieved is just handed to him (to some people), so reviving Maya could be Adolin’s own accomplishment. Don’t get me wrong, the path you envision with Dalinar and Adolin rebuilding their bond after Adolin finds out that Dalinar killed Evi, coupled with Maya’s bond being renewed with Adolin sounds really awesome...but I think that that can happen with or without Dalinar being explicitly involved in Maya’s revival.

I think this just comes down to how differently we view the well-being of dead spren. You think something has been fundamentally taken away from them and they can’t be revived until that is replaced. I think that their Investiture was redistributed via the nahel bond so they could exist more in the Physical Realm, but that the breaking of the nahel bond didn’t take away anything that was already there before the nahel bond and all that needs to happen is that someone forms a new nahel bond with them. 

[CrazyRioter]

Adolin and Dalinar rebuilding and redefining their relationship and Adolin resurrecting Maya are plotlines that can intersect, but I think it's because they will both involve some soul-searching on Adolin's part not because Dalinar is going to have anything to do with resurrecting Maya directly.

[Pathfinder]

58 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Pathfinder This is almost exactly why I feel Adolin needs to revive Maya without any external help. It already feels like a lot of what Adolin has achieved is just handed to him (to some people), so reviving Maya could be Adolin’s own accomplishment. Don’t get me wrong, the path you envision with Dalinar and Adolin rebuilding their bond after Adolin finds out that Dalinar killed Evi, coupled with Maya’s bond being renewed with Adolin sounds really awesome...but I think that that can happen with or without Dalinar being explicitly involved in Maya’s revival.

I think this just comes down to how differently we view the well-being of dead spren. You think something has been fundamentally taken away from them and they can’t be revived until that is replaced. I think that their Investiture was redistributed via the nahel bond so they could exist more in the Physical Realm, but that the breaking of the nahel bond didn’t take away anything that was already there before the nahel bond and all that needs to happen is that someone forms a new nahel bond with them. 

No worries. I understand and wish you luck with your theory! Guess at the end of the day all we can do is RAFO and whatever way it goes, it is sure to be epic  

[Jaelin]

3 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think I prefer the idea of Adolin basically healing Maya through his own actions because I think he tends to feel like he gets handed everything good that happens to him. I want him to have something he can point to that was unquestionably something that happened because of who he personally is and what he personally did.

I think we've seen foreshadowing that this is Adolin's intended character development. His ruminations in shadesmar indicate that he has come to value the trappings of his previous life less, accompanied with an appreciation that they are effectively meaningless compared to the people around him. He's being forced to realize that in situations like that (which are invariably more common in the desolation) he can't just be given everything and needs to 'earn' it himself.

 

Here's an interesting idea (although I don't think that it will necessarily happen this way):

What if Adolin, trying to get Maya to live again, gets Sja-anat to 'corrupt' her so that she can be alive once more.

I mean, he sees Renarin with Glys, and he's got Shallan who might tell him that Sja-anat isn't against humanity. So.. I guess it's in the realm of possibility.

[CrazyRioter]

3 minutes ago, Jaelin said:

Here's an interesting idea (although I don't think that it will necessarily happen this way):

What if Adolin, trying to get Maya to live again, gets Sja-anat to 'corrupt' her so that she can be alive once more.

I mean, he sees Renarin with Glys, and he's got Shallan who might tell him that Sja-anat isn't against humanity. So.. I guess it's in the realm of possibility.

It's been brought up before earlier in the thread, but I am highly skeptical that she could actually fix Maya, and I also don't want it to happen that way for the same reasons I don't want Dalinar to be involved in fixing her.

[StrikerEZ]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No worries. I understand and wish you luck with your theory! Guess at the end of the day all we can do is RAFO and whatever way it goes, it is sure to be epic  

Oh yeah, I totally agree on the epic part. Brandon will probably surprise both of us and do it completely differently. 

[Void89]

I think it's a certainty that adolin will become radiant, sometime. Enough foreshadowing was done, so something probably will happen - either some half alive maya giving him minor surges or so or some miraculous way to actually revive her fully... that said, the operative word is 'sometime'

Let's not forget that in order to become radiant you actually have to swear the oaths and mean them!

That's the basic stuff for alive spren.

So I can imagine that you have to really mean and live them as well as having some help or whatever else is necessary to revive a dead spren.

And Adolin as it is is nowhere near ready to swear the oaths.

The very first words of the first ideal are 'Life before death' yet Adolin was eager to punch/kill/maim sadeas from the very start, and that never changed throughout WoR, if you pay attention to the dialogues and monologues he had on that subject, until he acted on it in the most brutal of ways. (Regardless if he deserved it or not, that is not the issue here - Ameram and Elokhar deserved it too at that time and Kaladin lost Syl because of only considering it).

And at the end of OB he didn't even show remorse for how he did it, nope, he would do it again this instant if given a chance.

Regardless of the other stuff that comes next I actually think the killing of sadeas is the biggest issue that stands between him and his possible ascension to a knight radiant.

The second ideal is 'I will remember those who have been forgotten' and although he does occasionally show signs that he might understand that ideal, at several times he also forgets about other people or simply ignores them like elokhar after he died. I think he didn't mention his dead cousin once at any time in shadesmar, or how he hates and dismisses his bodyguards simply for the fact that they were kaladins men in WoR as he told Renarin.

The third ideal is 'I will listen to those who have been ignored'

Let's recap: Ignoring Kaladin at several Warcouncils, going so far to say 'Does the bridgeboy have to be here?' - Dismissing Dalinars visions for the better part of a book - Ignoring Shallans objections about learning how to duel, etc

 

Obviously he didn't only mess up all the time, but all the stuff he actually remembers and would speak for him getting radiant have already been mentioned several times.

But fact is that, as far as we know, spren don't say stuff like 'mhh right you did care that time and the other time, let's forget about the one time you didn't then - all good let's bond'

That wouldn't be enough for a spren that is alive as far as we know so it most certainly isn't enough for a dead one.

He might be on the way to become radiant but the fastest date that will probably happen is at the very end of SA4.

[CrazyRioter]

Adolin killed Sadeas because he knew he would keep on throwing lives away in pursuit of power. It was the only way he had at that point to prevent further loss of life at Sadeas's hands. I think killing a person who is a threat to many other lives can be easily fit within the First Ideal,

Adolin was intentionally not letting himself grieve over Elohkar in Shadesmar because it simply wasn't the right time to have a breakdown, not because he didn't care about him. Other people needed him in the moment.

Edited February 5, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Void89]

Ok my post might have been too long to see that easily sorry about that I'll shorten it since I think you misunderstood:

How he did it is important, it was butchery - also no remorse on that, and he had violent thoughts against him throughout the entire 2nd book.

His actions when he finally did it weren't reasonable it was anger - he later reasoned with himself and others that it was the right thing to do. But at the very moment he did it there was just anger there - no noble driven self sacrifice for the 'greater good'.

You might be right on elokhar, I have to admit I don't remember that if that really stood in the book ok, my bad - still not the only point I mentioned

Edited February 5, 2019 by Void89

[Lightblood]

Honestly I kinda hope that Adolin doesn't become a Knight Radiant. It fits his character arch better. He's the normal guy among all these super powered indivuals. He provides a contrast of a powerful non-radiant person.(granted he does have shards) I personally have always seen Adolin as the Sokka of the group (avatar the last airbender) and I like his role their. Now if he were to produce some minor powers through a partial/full revival of Maya. That would be okay. But I really think that Adolin is a really good baseline character for the rest of them. 

[Void89]

4 minutes ago, Lightblood said:

Honestly I kinda hope that Adolin doesn't become a Knight Radiant. It fits his character arch better. He's the normal guy among all these super powered indivuals. He provides a contrast of a powerful non-radiant person.(granted he does have shards) I personally have always seen Adolin as the Sokka of the group (avatar the last airbender) and I like his role their. Now if he were to produce some minor powers through a partial/full revival of Maya. That would be okay. But I really think that Adolin is a really good baseline character for the rest of them. 

I do too, but given the evidence it probably will happen, although as I mentioned almost certainly not as soon and as 'easy' as some people here hope for

Edited February 5, 2019 by Void89

[Lightblood]

Do you think we could convince Brandon to give Adolin a boomerang?

[CrazyRioter]

32 minutes ago, Lightblood said:

Do you think we could convince Brandon to give Adolin a boomerang?

I don't think boomerangs exist as a concept on Roshar, so no.

[Lightblood]

Just now, CrazyRioter said:

I don't think boomerangs exist as a concept on Roshar, so no.

sigh..... I guess we'll just have to settle for soul slicing super weapons.

[CrazyRioter]

Just now, Lightblood said:

sigh..... I guess we'll just have to settle for soul slicing super weapons.

Also why is this relevant to this discussion exactly?

[Lightblood]

Just now, CrazyRioter said:

Also why is this relevant to this discussion exactly?

I was making a reference for Adolin being a Rosharan Version of Sokka from Avatar the last airbender, It was a joke, not actually meant to be responded to.

[deacon]

3 hours ago, Void89 said:

Let's not forget that in order to become radiant you actually have to swear the oaths and mean them!

And Adolin as it is is nowhere near ready to swear the oaths.

The very first words of the first ideal are 'Life before death' yet Adolin was eager to punch/kill/maim sadeas from the very start, and that never changed throughout WoR, if you pay attention to the dialogues and monologues he had on that subject, until he acted on it in the most brutal of ways. (Regardless if he deserved it or not, that is not the issue here - Ameram and Elokhar deserved it too at that time and Kaladin lost Syl because of only considering it).

And at the end of OB he didn't even show remorse for how he did it, nope, he would do it again this instant if given a chance.

Regardless of the other stuff that comes next I actually think the killing of sadeas is the biggest issue that stands between him and his possible ascension to a knight radiant.

There's a lot to quote (whew!) so I'm just gonna keep the bit I'm particularly responding to? 

I do like looking at the WoBs and according to Brandon, there are Orders of Radiants who would be totally okay with how the murder of Sadeas went down:

Quote

Sweetness

What would the Willshapers think about Adolin killing Sadeas?

Brandon Sanderson

The Willshapers would probably be okay with that.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Quote

Jerich

After what Adolin does at the end [of Words of Radiance] are there still Radiant orders that would take him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there would be. In fact, yes. Definitely that's possible. I'm not going to say that he becomes one, but yeah.

Jerich

So like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers or...?

Brandon Sanderson

The Skybreakers might have trouble because it wasn't legal. But there are others who would be like "oh that was totally the right thing to do."

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

And we also know that there isn't only one to think of the First Oath. Even someone with ideas as way different from the Windrunners as a Machiavellian could say and mean the First Oath.

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Anyway, I definitely agree that he won't be a Radiant when we see him again for the first time in SA4, but I just think the reason won't be because the murder excludes him. Imo if Brandon actually does make Adolin a Radiant (who knows, like, 50/50 odds? He refuses to confirm or deny anything.), it's cause it'd be way too boring to have that happen right at the beginning. Brandon could always surprise me I guess but that's what I think right now.

[Guest]

These WoB neither confirm nor deny anything about how Edgedancers would have responded to the murder.

However, we have an actual in-book example of how an Edgedancer - Lift - dealt with someone, who was at least as bad as Sadeas. Namely, Nale. Some might argue, that he was even worse for Lift, since he actually sought to kill her as she is a Surgebinder and he has killed their kind countless times before.

How did she handle it? She reasoned with him, that there is no sense in killing the Surgebinders by showing him the Everstorm, which meant the arrival of the Desolation. Defeated Nale was defenseless. Did she kill him? No, she hugged him. Even though, she had every reason to kill him, she didn't. Would she have killed him, if he hadn't seen reason? Perhaps, we don't know.

Some might argue, that Sadeas was beyond reasoning. Perhaps. Dalinar certainly didn't think so though. The point is, that from the first moment we meet Adolin, he is full of hate against Sadeas, wants to duel him to kill him. He didn't even try to reason, the thought never crossed his mind. Instead, he let himself get provoked by Sadeas and murdered him, while describing it gleefully to the reader. Seriously, that scene is graphic as storm.

For me, that just doesn't fly for an Edgedancer.

Edited February 6, 2019 by SLNC

[deacon]

39 minutes ago, SLNC said:

These WoB neither confirm nor deny anything about how Edgedancers would have responded to the murder.

However, we have an actual in-book example of how an Edgedancer - Lift - dealt with someone, who was at least as bad as Sadeas. Namely, Nale. Some might argue, that he was even worse for Lift, since he actually sought to kill her as she is a Surgebinder and he has killed their kind countless times before.

How did she handle it? She reasoned with him, that there is no sense in killing the Surgebinders by showing him the Everstorm, which meant the arrival of the Desolation. Defeated Nale was defenseless. Did she kill him? No, she hugged him. Even though, she had every reason to kill him, she didn't. Would she have killed him, if he hadn't seen reason? Perhaps, we don't know.

Some might argue, that Sadeas was beyond reasoning. Perhaps. Dalinar certainly didn't think so though. The point is, that from the first moment we meet Adolin, he is full of hate against Sadeas, wants to duel him to kill him. He didn't even try to reason, the thought never crossed his mind. Instead, he let himself get provoked by Sadeas and murdered him, while describing it gleefully to the reader. Seriously, that scene is graphic as storm.

For me, that just doesn't fly for an Edgedancer.

Hmm, I guess I'll just disagree. But my point was addressed to Void, who was talking about becoming a Knight Radiant in general. I didn't say anything about Edgedancers. Oh, well!

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, deacon said:

Hmm, I guess I'll just disagree. But my point was addressed to Void, who was talking about becoming a Knight Radiant in general. I didn't say anything about Edgedancers. Oh, well!

Ah, you're right. I suppose, I was going by the thread's topic of Maya's possible revival, which would mean Edgedancer.

Also, I don't see him attracting any spren while bonded to a deadeye.

[deacon]

Just now, SLNC said:

Ah, you're right. I suppose, I was going by the thread's topic of Maya's possible revival, which would mean Edgedancer.

Also, I don't see him attracting any spren while bonded to a deadeye.

Yeah, I don't know either. It still seems really up in the air to me? Like, is Brandon not saying anything about Edgedancers and this question because he doesn't want to give away that he will be one? Or because he doesn't want to give away that he isn't? Brandon obviously isn't going to say anything before SA4 so all we have is the evidence in the books, and Adolin definitely won't be approached by any radiant spren while he has Maya, oh definitely. I know some people think it's 100% confirmed but I really think it could go either way.

[CrazyRioter]

I'm pretty sure this was posted earlier in the thread but I'll post it again for ease of access (and because it is my WoB and I am extremely proud of it).

Quote

CrazyRioter [PENDING REVIEW]

Would Maya have wanted to bond with Adolin if she were alive?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I think so.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

This is post-OB so persumably takes into account his killing Sadeas.

[Guest]

And this still does not confirm anything. I was arguing about whether or not Adolin is made out of the stuff, that could swear the Edgedancer ideals.

Many spren would have liked to bond certain humans:

Quote

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.

- Chapter 12, page 12 from Words of Radiance (in-world)

Spren make mistakes - Syl almost did one with Kaladin, as apparently the Cryptic, that tried to bond Malchin. It is an actual effort of both the human and the spren and not definite just because the spren wants it so.

Edited February 6, 2019 by SLNC