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If Maya revives, will she be the same?


Invocation

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1 hour ago, Sunbringer said:

Good point. However, Szeth killed the people before being a skybreaker. He also didn’t want to do it. Adolin just wanted Sadeas dead (and with really freaking good reason)

 

59 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Szeth also killed the people because he was following orders he believed he had a religious obligation to follow. He was acting in accordance with an authority. That's the reason Nale picked him up in the first place.

I will reply to you both in one go but tagged both so both will see. I will need to locate the WoB, but Brandon has commented that Skybreakers admit anyone who hold strongly to a personal code. That code can take varying forms. This results in even skybreakers disagreeing with each other. Adolin's code what he felt there was a strict definition of right and wrong, and that Sadeas breaks that sense of morality and that he would continue to do so. So like Szeth executing the warden at purelake, Adolin executed a repeat offender (in his mind). Adolin also does not view what he did as murder. To be clear I am not arguing that Adolin will become a skybreaker over an edgedancer. My point is only to say that the order should not be excluded from consideration. 

 

edit: found it. WoB below and pertinent part bolded for reference

IHeartMyKitten
Would Szeth still have been chosen to be a skybreaker if Nalan'Elin had known that Szeth was willing to kill Adolin "on his own time" unlawfully without being compelled by his oathstone? Or did Nalan'Elin know about that and still think he'd be a good fit?

Brandon Sanderson
Nobody is perfect, and Nale knows this--but he has worse days than others. It's not so much the law, as willingness to follow a personal code, that Nale is most interested in. He's also more harsh with people once they join the order than before.

So, he wouldn't have loved it, but it wouldn't have stopped him from offering.

 

edit: LOL in the span of attempting to locate the other WoB where it states about two skybreakers not agreeing, i came across a WoB where Brandon states how Spensa could potentially fall into both edgedancers and skybreakers

 

Phantine
Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes:

If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best?

Brandon Sanderson
Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer.

 

and found the other WoB

lupicorn
I had a question about what it means to swear the Ideal of Law. Several fans have told me it means to define the law, in the Nixon, "when the president does it, that means it is not illegal," sort of way. I interpret it as becoming the embodiment of the law such that they can't willingly violate any law without breaking their oaths.

Do either of these interpretations hit the mark? Nale seems to follow the law more so than most and that doesn't just seem like a personal preference.

Brandon Sanderson
I would say that both of these interpretations could work for a given Skybreaker, which is why there is disagreement among the order itself. Perception is a big part of the oaths.

I wouldn't want to squish this discussion by offering too much on one side or the other, as this is exactly where I want the conversation to be going right now

Edited by Pathfinder
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48 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

He was acting in accordance with an authority. That's the reason Nale picked him up in the first place.

Didn't Szeth followed a rock? While Adolin killed to in his mind save his father and a lot of other people so you can say also strong personal code

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

To be clear I am not arguing that Adolin will become a skybreaker over an edgedancer. My point is only to say that the order should not be excluded from consideration. 

I don't think anyone said that Adolin definitely couldn't be a Skybreaker, only that it was not a great fit.  Certain orders are better fits for certain types of people; certain orders would take more or less issue with specific actions (e.g. murdering a Highprince).  

P.s. This is all really off topic.  There's loads of other threads arguing over which Order he fits best and whether or not he will/should become a Knight Radiant, and this discussion would best fit one of those.  

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1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I don't think anyone said that Adolin definitely couldn't be a Skybreaker, only that it was not a great fit.  Certain orders are better fits for certain types of people; certain orders would take more or less issue with specific actions (e.g. murdering a Highprince).  

P.s. This is all really off topic.  There's loads of other threads arguing over which Order he fits best and whether or not he will/should become a Knight Radiant, and this discussion would best fit one of those.  

Sorry to nitpick but if you refer to page 2, Naurok said:

"Maybe since Adolin is the one that won Maya and has forged some sort of connection over the years maybe through this rebirth she instead becomes a spren to fit Adolin's personality instead of him being fit for any specific Order. Like a mix of Edgedancer and Skybreaker, receiving the surges of Division and Abrasion or Progression and Gravitation (I prefer the first pair)."

Which is in line with the subject matter. CrazyRioter responded:

"And Adolin is definitely not a Skybreaker type."

 

So the subject matter was in line within the thread, and CrazyRioter did in fact say Adolin could not be a skybreaker. So my response was inline with the thread. However, I think I made my point rather well that Adolin could be a skybreaker, or stoneward, or any other radiant order if so inclined based on WoB so I have no problem dropping the subject if you would like to change the topic. 

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A more interesting question, at least to me, is that if Maya gets revived, will she still have her memories from before?  If yes, will we get her as the Interlude Novella character viewpoint to recount some of those memories, mixed with her adjusting to her new life and how the world has changed?

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16 minutes ago, Stark said:

A more interesting question, at least to me, is that if Maya gets revived, will she still have her memories from before?  If yes, will we get her as the Interlude Novella character viewpoint to recount some of those memories, mixed with her adjusting to her new life and how the world has changed?

I think that is an awesome idea!

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A Maya PoV would be swell. I'd totally read a Maya and Adolin novella (with guest appearances from Lift and Wyndle). Getting her thoughts on..well a lot of things first hand would be really fascinating.

There's been some speculation on how Syl differs from more recently created honorspren as a result of changing human perceptions of honour, It' be interesting to explore similar themes with how Maya differs from the younger generation of cultivationspren.

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Having a sentient spren viewpoint, any sentient spren viewpoint, would be super cool.  The chapters we have gotten from Eshonai and Venli have been pretty interesting to me.  Getting into the headspace of a non-human race to see how they perceive the world is pretty cool.

 

Getting inside a spren's mind?  Yeah, that would be neat.  A resurrected Maya, or seeing the thought process of an Inkspren - driven by logic, with that interesting speech pattern.  Or in the mind of a pattern? Or Glys, or even one of the Unmade?  I'd love to see a spren POV.

 

But Maya's is top of my list.

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Brandon has said their will probably be a spren PoV eventually, which I am also looking forward to for the same reasons as you. I also find attempts to imagine the inner workings of a non-human intelligence fascinating. It being Maya, who is fascinating for so many other reasons would just be icing on the cake.

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I found the WoB in question

Quote

Scriptorian (paraphrased)

Will we ever read from a spren's viewpoint?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It is likely you someday will.

Scriptorian (paraphrased)

A book where the flashbacks are spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Probably not. Or it’s not planned right now.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

So anyway, it'd probably just be an interlude, but we can hold out hope for something a bit more substantial right?

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2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

Brandon has said their will probably be a spren PoV eventually, which I am also looking forward to for the same reasons as you. I also find attempts to imagine the inner workings of a non-human intelligence fascinating. It being Maya, who is fascinating for so many other reasons would just be icing on the cake.

If this is true, I hope it's from the POV of Maya after or in the process of fully "reviving". Or if the nature of her having been broken means she goes in and out of lucidity.

Can you imagine Maya POV chapters reading like Charlie from "Flowers For Algernon"? Storms!

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4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Can you imagine Maya POV chapters reading like Charlie from "Flowers For Algernon"? Storms!

I think that would be a very powerful and beautiful way to humanize the trauma the spren went through when the oaths were broken and the climb back to sapience

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On 1/30/2019 at 10:39 AM, Scion of the Mists said:

Without derailing this thread, can you briefly explain the Adolin as Skybreaker thing?  I hadn't heard of that before (although I tend to avoid arguments about character-related stuff). 

Sorry, really late back. This was a recollection of a couple threads a ways back before Oathbringer. There was a few people that disagreed which Order Adolin was suited for (be it Skybreaker, Edgedancer, or team not a Radiant).

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22 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

I just don't see a bond with a spren (even if that spren was dead for a thousand or so years) failing to grant Surges

That's assuming the Nahel bond is the only kind of bond spren can have. It might end up being a hybrid between a seon-type bond and a Nahel bond, to where Maya can talk and be summoned faster, but not that it's deep enough to grant surges.

Edited by Invocation
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I assume you mean it isn't deep enough to grant Surges. But again, I think about what the Nahel bond is: the spren gets sentience in the PR and gets to experience change in a way not possible in Shadesmar. In return, the human (and now listener) gets access to the Surges and stormlight. If healing is to happen here, I'd imagine it actually requires a deeper bond between Adolin and Maya, not a shallower one

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6 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

I assume you mean it isn't deep enough to grant Surges.

Yeah, my bad. 

7 minutes ago, Kon-Tiki said:

But again, I think about what the Nahel bond is: the spren gets sentience in the PR and gets to experience change in a way not possible in Shadesmar. In return, the human (and now listener) gets access to the Surges and stormlight. If healing is to happen here, I'd imagine it actually requires a deeper bond between Adolin and Maya, not a shallower one

It's a deeper bond than what they have now, yes, but not deep enough for the merging of spiritwebs that grants the powers. I don't think Maya could grant powers again, even if they did bond that deeply. I think with the betrayal of her last Radiant, the portion of her spiritweb that is able to do that is gone, on a permanent basis now that her Radiant is dead. She might be able to wake up and not be a full deadeye, but I doubt she's going to be fully resurrected in the same way that Syl was.

That, or Adolin is going to end up fully merging himself with her and you've got some strange Robocop (Sprencop?) situation happening where they act together physically as well as mentally.

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As I've stated numerous times before, the restoration that's happening with Maya's mind, in my opinion, means that a Nahel bond is forming. I don't think that she could be restored by anything other than what she lost. 

I don't think that was "ripped out" of her was actually a part of her that can't return. Spren typically have no Physical aspect, and so when they transition to the Physical they become weak mentally. They go stupid. I think the deadeyes are just an extreme of this. 

When the bond was abruptly severed, rather than ending naturally through dissolution or death of the Radiant, they were left in a state in which they are supposed to have a fully realized corporeal Physical form. Without the bond to a Radiant that allows them to piggyback on the Physical aspect of the Radiant, that means that having that Physical form must rob investiture from the only place they have to support it. Their mind. Just as merely existing in the physical without a bond makes them function like a non-Sapient spren, being forced into a Physical form completely destroys the ability to function. 

I think that what was "ripped out" is still a part of them, it's just forced into maintaining a Physical aspect that they aren't supposed to have in the first place. Even unsummoned, this would still ruin them, just as a person in the Cognitive from the Physical still has a Physical aspect that allows them to transition back. 

In my opinion, her mind returning and the decreased time allowed for her to be summoned means that a Nahel bond is being restored to her and she's beginning to rely on Adolin's Physical aspect in the same way she used to rely on her Radiants 

For Maya to be healed, Adolin will be an Edgedancer. 

Edited by Calderis
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