If Maya revives, will she be the same?

insert_anagram_here · February 13, 2019

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is there any effect on a Shardblade if the deadeye is really far away from where the Blade is?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Define really.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The one that's trapped on the ship. Let's say they're taking him to the far side of Shadesmar, but the dude that owns that Blade lives in <inaudible>.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

We will deal with that in the books. There is an effect, but that's not enough of an effect.

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Considering no one says that their Shardblade is acting weird in two and a half thousand years.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That happens all the time in Shadesmar. If you were able to get it off the planet, it would have an effect.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

If you as the owner of the Shardblade were offworld and you tried to summon it, that would be the effect?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Either way. But you can't take spren off-world. I mean, you can, but you can't really. Really all that I have in the notes for it to do right now, is to add slightly more time. So you're like, "That's weird that felt like not ten heartbeats, it felt like twelve."

But it's like, you're on another planet, then it's suddenly speed of light type stuff. So suddenly it's like, "This is taking three years instead. That's a pretty big deal!"

So I've got a few weird speed of light things mixed into the cosmere, and that's one of them.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

6

Honestly, I don't understand your argument here, what does this WoB about the difference between an 'off-world' summoning and an 'on-world' summoning has to do with the

Quote

roughly as much time as a deadeye spren would need in order to be summoned in the corresponding location in the Cognitive, of the Shardbearer in the Physical (in a normal case at least).

1

Say that it takes 10 x D x V to 'in-world' summon a Dead Shardblade, where D is the in-world distance and V is the in-world Velocity per heartbeat. This WoB only says that an 'off-world' summoning would take 10 x D x V + L x C, where L is the off-world distance and C the speed of light. It isn't saying that V and C are equal.

Edit: @Calderis

My point is, I don't care about the speed of light argument, that's something you attributed to my argument, assuming something from a WoB and assuming that I'm doing the same thing. You keep on saying that I find 'unlikely explanations' for things, but you jump to conclusions based on arbitrary WoBs far too easily. You know what, that's okay, we are all making up theories here.

Edited February 13, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

CrazyRioter · February 13, 2019

The WoB clearly states that the difference will be negligible unless you are on a different planet. Certainly, a distance of a few feet won't matter and that's probably what we're talking about given that we know she's been hanging around him the whole time, because nobody locked her up.

insert_anagram_here · February 13, 2019

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

negligible

So you think that 12 instead of 10 is neglible but 7 instead of 10 isn't?

CrazyRioter · February 13, 2019

Just now, insert_anagram_here said:

So you think that 12 instead of 10 is neglible but 7 instead of 10 isn't?

That section is a bit confusing but it looks like the 12 heartbeats is if you're like in Low Orbit and you're trying to summon it. That's what he's talking about in that section. In the section where he's talking about being on the other side of the world he's like "yeah, nobody's gonna notice that because the effect isn't big enough."

Regardless, this is a distraction because we're talking about a few feet of distance at most. That's peanuts. Actually that's peanut cells. It doesn't matter.

Calderis · February 13, 2019

6 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

That section is a bit confusing but it looks like the 12 heartbeats is if you're like in Low Orbit and you're trying to summon it. That's what he's talking about in that section. In the section where he's talking about being on the other side of the world he's like "yeah, nobody's gonna notice that because the effect isn't big enough."

Regardless, this is a distraction because we're talking about a few feet of distance at most. That's peanuts. Actually that's peanut cells. It doesn't matter.

Exactly this. The WoB outright says that on world there will be no noticeable difference. That it happens all the time and no one notices.

And we know that Maya was there all the time.

Brandon's rules are consistent. The reason the speed of light matters, and this is not just an assumption it is what Brandon says in that WoB, is that the difference between summoning a shardblade with your spren right net to you, and your spren on the opposite side of Roshar is going to be less a fraction of a heartbeat, because the size of Roshar is not vast enough for light to take any significant time to traverse.

insert_anagram_here · February 13, 2019

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Exactly this. The WoB outright says that on he evenworld there will be no noticeable difference. That it happens all the time and no one notices.

And we know that Maya was there all the time.

Brandon's rules are consistent. The reason the speed of light matters, and this is not just an assumption it is what Brandon says in that WoB, is that the difference between summoning a shardblade with your spren right net to you, and your spren on the opposite side of Roshar is going to be less a fraction of a heartbeat, because the size of Roshar is not vast enough for light to take any significant time to traverse.

4

'outright says' huh? In case you read my previous reply to you, we are having different interpretations of the same WoB. It's beside the point, but in case anyone actually cares to listen to the other side of the argument, let me try to explain again, differently. Try and follow how the conversation is happening with me.

The WoB is initiated with a question about the difference in summoning duration if a Radiant is really far away and Sanderson replies 'it depends as to what you mean as really far away ' and so the questioner proceeds to ask about in-world distance, and Sanderson says 'There is an effect, but that's not enough of an effect ' and clarifies that ' If you were able to get it off the planet, it would have an effect '. Basically meaning that in both cases there is a difference in summoning duration but when you are off-world it's much greater, so the in-world effect is small that you could even concider that 'it's not much of an effect'.

And then he even proceeds to compare the difference in duration between 12 to 10 heartbeats VS the duration of 3 years. He's not comparing " peanut cells " to years, he is actually saying that in-world difference would be a few heartbeats and off-world would be years. (because in off world distance he is taking into account 'speed of light things')

You're not gonna find the full landscape of the moon until people start visiting it. And it's gonna grow on Shadesmar.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

8

Calderis · February 13, 2019

How does a WoB which demonstrates a method by which lightspeed can be subverted, how worldhopping is possible, support this idea?

If the summoning mechanism functioned in the same manner as Cognitive travel, then there would be more pronounced variation in speed across the face of a world, and almost no difference between worlds because you'd be skipping over all of those "light-years in steps"

That's clearly the opposite of what he says about summoning a blade.

Pathfinder · February 13, 2019

19 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I don't understand if you are placing this question as a counter argument here, but if you are it doesn't matter. Your guess is as good as mine. Finding a scenario how this could've happened doesn't make the argument 'everyone thinks they needed ten heartbeats to summon Shardblades' true. It's already true because it's in the books. Shallan thinks she needs ten heartbeats even if she didn't and Sanderson explained it. It's because of Perception.

Well, I meant that it could've been a necessisity when Honor was still alive, but after his death that restriction was removed.

*dons the special tin foil hat with that little windmill on top*

Reveal hidden contents

I always wondered why the Heralds abandoned their Honorblades. Could it be that by breaking the Oathpact, just by rejecting Honor, a significant power was lost along with the blades? Plates perhaps? Since oaths seem to be something of Honor, maybe there could've been ten Oaths (or Ideals) that held the Heralds, that needed to be said or thought in order for Honor to allow plates to materialize, maybe we just never witnessed that part of their powers. (It was called an Oathpact afterall)

Now we know that the Radiant process was copied from the Heralds and for people that were merely observing them, I'm assuming some sort of scholars that passed down that knowledge later on, they observed and concluded that 'a pause of a few heartbeats must be a prerequisite for their power to materialize' while the Heralds were waiting for their plates to materilize. So maybe that detail was recorded down at this point, maybe it was even an actual prerequisite for Radiants as well, before Honor died.

Fast forward Oathpact broken, Recreance, Hierocracy, the historical time where anything connected to the Heralds and the number ten is revered. Insidentally whatever knowledge outside the Vorin beliefs is 'lost'.

At some point we know they discovered (or maybe even re-discovered) that they could bond Dead Shardblades by using gems. How would they discover this exactly? Researching old texts and experimenting. So they found some old text saying 'a pause of a few heartbeats must be a prerequisite for their power to materialize' (even if the necessary time is just as little as whatever resticts the deadeye spren on Shadesmar). When the experiment worked, they concluded that 'heartbeats are indeed needed, and even ten, just like the Heralds themselves!' just to apply those Vorin beliefs in that text.

Far fetched, right?

6

Ok, any theories on why the 10 heartbeats for dead shardblades would have been a necessity while Honor was alive? Genuinely asking, not presenting as a counter argument

18 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

There were likely very very few if any dead Shardblades around before Honor's death and the Recreance.

This is verifiably incorrect. Tanavast was still "alive" during the Recreance. He saw it happen. That is why it was included in the visions. WoB are very clear on that. He literally watched all those windrunners and stonewards break their oaths. So there would be plenty of dead shardblades around before Honor's death

edit: upon re-reading i noticed you said "and the recreance". I apologize I mis-read your post. I have kept the original as reference.

18 hours ago, Calderis said:

@insert_anagram_here

Perception can act as a limiter, making an honorblade or a live sprenblade take 10 heartbeats when it shouldn't... But you can't make something happen that isn't possible simply because you believe it to be so.

Saying that the ten heartbeat limit on all shardblades is because of perception is a very very different statement than saying that Shallan and Szeth's perception made something unnecessary happen.

I've seen nothing anywhere that says that the ten heartbeat limit on shardblades in general is one of perception.

And I have seen nothing explain why shardblades have to be summoned in ten heartbeats to begin with. Do you have anything concrete or WoB to confirm the reason why to conclusively say it cannot potentially be perception as insert anagram posits?

17 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I agree. Perception does matter in the Cosmere, more than in real life, but there are hard limits on how things work that cannot be bypassed by believing it hard enough.

Syl's comments are pretty clear that the delay is a consequence of the state of the dead spren. Admittedly, Syl is not perfectly knowledgable, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary it's best to take her comments seriously.

Can you present concrete evidence that 10 heartbeats is one of those hard limits?

Is it though? We can take the comments in consideration, but given the unreliability of a spren's knowledge/recollection, it should be all treated as suspect till proven otherwise.

17 hours ago, deacon said:

I am previously aware of the scientific method, yep.

My responses I think are going to overlap with things already said, but that is life in a discussion forum.

Well, the idea that there was a change of summoning speed is not based on anything. In three books, it has not been touched on and nothing we've seen or heard of in the books has suggested that the ten heartbeats can be circumvented, until Maya. (considering the WoB I have referenced, I am theorizing that Maya is the first OBSERVABLE phenomena. To make clear I capitalized for emphasis, not yelling because I bolded and colored this entire sentence to denote a response)

People's hearts beat faster when in battle and in need (dat adrenaline~), but this is not new to the function of Shardblades. This is business as usual. This is not new to the Perpendicularity. It's still ten heartbeats, even if the heart is beating faster because of adrenaline or urgent need.

An increase in investiture does not make dead Shardblades summon faster; it has not been noted in any of the books so far. It's still always ten heartbeats. Even in the Perpendicularity, everyone else who used Shardblades summoned them in the normal 10 heartbeats, and in the Battle of Thaylen, just about everyone was in urgent need. (and yet I theorize that if a hemalurgic spike leaking could slow down the summoning, so too could an increase make it faster. do you have concrete evidence to say this is impossible?)

If Adolin was able to summon it faster the third time because of need but no one else who was in need could do that, then it can't be because of an effect in the area.(I already replied to this to Calderis, so please refer to that post, but the TLDR is that I combined Adolin's need with the realms being closer together. So I theorized that the need does in fact shorten the heartbeats, but it is too small to be observable. Once the realms were brought closer together, distance was also shortened, thereby the combined effects potentially resulted in the reduced time summon)

Being aware that this is only an example guess to you, still, here's an example response.

Already, I feel it's important to note this is already mostly the main theory I see going around. A combination of Adolin living the oaths, Maya starting to stir - whatever we think exactly that means - and a non-zero amount of people think the Bondsmith abilities are going to help. I personally don't care one way or the other if Bondsmith abilities are involved somehow, just that it doesn't make sense that the Bondsmith powers are the main/only facilitator here. (I disagree that my theory indicated that the Bondsmith powers are the main/only factor. I have included my theory that what Adolin is doing is crucial in making the scaffolding to guide the flow of power. Without it, there would, in my opinion, be no revival. However I respect that you can view the theory in that light, and prefer your own)

That's what I meant when I said there was no detail to it, though I'd love more on this. Anyone can make any kind of guess they want because it's so broad and vague, so in my opinion, it needs further reasoning to be used in an argument. Still a very fun WoB. (I disagree. It clearly says a spren can take in more investiture, and it could have an effect on it. So saying using investiture to cause an effect on Maya, who is a spren cannot happen, is contrary to that WoB. I think it is quite valid in backing up my theory. But you are of course entitled to disagree.)

Bondsmiths being used don't dispute your theory, either, because Bondsmiths can 100% affect the power of Connection. It's just that Connection is not investiture, and they work differently. Connection isn't going to follow the same rules as investiture. (when did I ever say it would follow the same rules. Btw you are basing your assertions on one WoB that says connection is not investiture directly. That does not preclude it from working like it in anyway. In fact that WoB gives you no indication on HOW it would work differently. Everything else in your statement as them not working on the same rules is purely conjecture on your part)

Your opinion that Bondsmiths can jump the hurtle of assigned investiture is a risky one and I don't think there's enough of a foundation there. Dalinar has affected the powers' of people he already knows - he personally has Connection with Shallan - and affecting the connection of dead Blades that never belonged to him is still completely unknown territory. We've never seen the Bondsmith powers affect a third-party relationship - ie. the kind of personal only-two-allowed-here relationship that is a Radiant and their spren/Shardbearer and their Shardblade. So while I'm saying I don't think it's ruled out, I also think there's not anything to support it, either. (there is a WoB, that I will pull up and add after I am done typing, that clarifies that it is the Bondsmiths power system to empower other radiants. He didn't say other radiants the bondsmith knows. he said other radiants, full stop. Dalinar didn't know the stones of the temple prior to reuniting them. So I feel that is stretching the situation when we have verified that bondsmiths can effect, and empower other radiant's surges despite it not being their own. I will also add in the case of Shallan, it was done without her knowledge or consent. She just walked by Dalinar, and it happened. So the Bondsmith ability augments other radiants abilities despite the identity of the investiture being associated with another radiant)

(edit: here is the WoB I was referring to:

LerasiumMistborn
You said Bondsmiths can boost other Radiants' powers. That moment when Dalinar helped Shallan a create a map. Can he do it with all Radiants? And this “boost” is always different with each Order?

Brandon Sanderson
Yes, and yes.)

That tends to be my philosophy. It's my experience that "the lack of opposing evidence to the theory" is not the same thing as "evidence that supports the theory". Of course everyone is allowed to theorize and play in the space Brandon made, but after a lot of frustrations in the past, I am never going to support a theory whose strongest argument is just that it's possible. Otherwise, I'll never get through the gaps in between SA books. (i think you misunderstand a large purpose of my posts. I was basically saying exactly that to calderis. The theory that Maya is healing, is a theory. Just because there may be other theories that do not work for him, does not preclude those theories from being possible and just as valid. please refer back to my prior posts. I was illustrating as to why maya healing was a supposition, not a verified fact. And then I presented alternative reasons that these things could have happened to show why it is a supposition and not a fact.

edit 2: to add, there does not even have to be an alternative theory or explanation for maya healing to be supposition. There is too little to go on to classify it as anything else. For instance, spontaneous generation was accepted as fact for a two millennia before multiple tests were able to show in a myriad of situations that things did not actually work that way. We do not have enough information to solely conclude that Maya is healing, just like we do not have enough evidence to solely conclude the other theories, including my own.)

I've already said that Connection and investiture are different. If a Bondsmith is involved, it can't be investiture. They are not the same thing and have different rules. Bondsmiths might be able to affect the Connection between Blade and bearer, but investiture wouldn't affect Connection. You'd have to ignore all the WoBs about the nature of investiture and Connection to say that investiture could be used to fix a broken Connection. To use your metaphor, that'd be like placing two broken cords (damaged Connection) next to each other, sending electricity (investiture) through both, and then saying that the cord is now whole. Connection and investiture are two different things. The Connection between the bearer and Blade IS the bond between the bearer and Blade. I've just been using them interchangeably; perhaps I assumed people reading would understand I meant they were the exact same thing. (and this is again where I feel you are misunderstanding what i was saying. Connection and the bond I feel are two different things. Adolin is strengthening his connection to Maya, the bond remains the same. It to me is a faux bond. The faux bond allows the wielder to summon a shard blade, dismiss a shard blade, and wield a shardblade. All that has happened is Adolin can summon the shardblade sooner, and hear Maya (who was always there screaming when summoned, just we only heard it when a radiant would touch the blade, but it doesn't change she was always "speaking"). Adolin did not breathe in stormlight, nor exhibit any of the surges that is indicative of a bonded radiant. Adolin didn't do anything "new". He just did what he already could do, but sooner or clearer. To me in order to do "more" the bond needs to be healed. In my opinion, that healing would come from an infusion of investiture from a bondsmith that can also manipulate connection as the guide. This theory does not work for you. I totally respect that. But it can exist with the information we currently have till we find out more)

But Bondsmiths would be involved in the future; we haven't seen a Bondsmith powers affecting Adolin and Maya's bond in the books. (that is your assumption, not fact. I disagree)

I have responded to your response in blue to better reply to each point you made.

15 hours ago, Ryu Hatsu said:

Imagine the implications if she revives? I mean, what does that do to the Oathpact and the spren involvement? I personally think that she could/would make things incredibly hard for the group due to her potential trauma, but it would make for an interesting twist! I love the fact that she engaged, that changes everything. And I always root for Adolin, because you just have to, even Kal does. Hahaha

I think the implications if she is revived would be great because (according to my theory) it could mean the rest of the deadeyes could be revived, and forgiveness could be forged. That not only the bond itself could be healed, but so too the rift between spren and man.

15 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I would expect her to be trying as hard as she could to be helpful for Adolin's sake if nothing else, and I would expect her to know things that would be helpful enough to outweigh any issues caused by her trauma. It'd expect issues in that regard to be interpersonal in nature.

And I think it would absolutely have a huge effect on spren relations with humans particularly if she and Adolin could find the time to travel through Shadesmar and talk to them. Admittedly, Adolin is going to have a lot of demands on his time.

Got nothing to add here. It is what works for you, and you see it as a beautiful moment for Adolin. More power to you.

11 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Well, I didn't say that there isn't a hard limit. It's roughly as much time as a deadeye spren would need in order to be summoned in the corresponding location in the Cognitive, of the Shardbearer in the Physical (in a normal case at least). But the fact that it has to be perceived as 'exactly ten heartbeats' could be a Vorin belief attributed later on to that discovery, coinciding roughly with the actual fact. In general, explaining natural phenomena with superstition isn't something unheard of for religions, it's part of what makes people believe them in the first place.

As CR said, there weren't many cases of Dead Shardblades pre-Recreance so that only adds strength to the possibility of a 'misunderstanding'. By the time they needed to understand how dead Shardblades worked, Radiants were already gone.

Edit: I only presented the 'Vorin misunderstanding' theory as a possible explanation as to how the perception of 'ten heartbeats need' came to be established because @Pathfinder asked. I'm not here to convince anyone of this specific theory(I've only thought it up just last night) but my point is that there could be any other reason as to how 'ten heartbeats' has become an idea as a prerequisite, even if it isn't exactly like that.

The fact that perception matters is proven both in-book and with WoBs.

Nothing to add here. I am interested in learning more about your theory, and thank you for answering my question!

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

I find it far more likely that the ten heartbeat limit is the natural boundary, as when shardblades first became summon able for a gem bond, the only record of any kind of summoning should have been from the radiants themselves.

And has already been covered in this thread, the distance mechanic is based off of the speed of light, so unless you and your blades spren are on different worlds the difference in summon length should be negligible.

We know that in the event of a continuous flow pacemaker, a shard bearer would sense something other than the heartbeats, but I'm willing to bet the general time frame would be much the same.

Except in that very WoB, as well as the WoB regarding oathgates Brandon admits he is playing fast and loose with speed of light, and he is have trouble reconsiling what he wants to do vs the actual technicalities of it. Very similar to his issue with speed bubbles and red shift. So I believe it is too early to discount something because of a mention of "speed of light" especially by his own words he said he was playing around with it.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

You said this.

But per this WoB it's based off the speed of light. So regardless of where the spren is on Roshar, the time difference is going to be so small as to be unnoticeable.

And the bit about the ten heartbeats being a representation... Is exactly my point. A different representation could occur and would still require a similar time frame in order to summon the spren.

You take the WoB out of context. The full sentence is:

"So you're like "that's weird that felt like not ten heartbeats, it felt like twelve. But it's like, you're on another planet, then it's suddenly speed of light type stuff. So suddenly its like this is taking three years instead. thats a pretty big deal! So I've got a few weird speed of light things mixed into the cosmere, and that's one of them."

He states there is a difference of 12 heartbeats on the current planet. It is when you get off planet it becomes 3 years because it is then suddenly speed of light stuff.

11 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

The vast vast majority of the summoning time is just the process of 'waking up' the dead spren just enough to summon them. The distance is irrelevant under normal circumstances.

What is confirmed: summoning time is attributed to reviving the spren (as per Brandons own words)

what is not confirmed: the distance is irrelevant under normal circumstances

10 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

The WoB clearly states that the difference will be negligible unless you are on a different planet. Certainly, a distance of a few feet won't matter and that's probably what we're talking about given that we know she's been hanging around him the whole time, because nobody locked her up.

It does not clearly state that. Please refer to my earlier post.

10 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

That section is a bit confusing but it looks like the 12 heartbeats is if you're like in Low Orbit and you're trying to summon it. That's what he's talking about in that section. In the section where he's talking about being on the other side of the world he's like "yeah, nobody's gonna notice that because the effect isn't big enough."

Regardless, this is a distraction because we're talking about a few feet of distance at most. That's peanuts. Actually that's peanut cells. It doesn't matter.

I do not see it stated anywhere in that WoB about low orbit. Could you point that out to me? it is not a few feet to me when the realms are brought together. So it is not peanuts to me. Though I respect that you would interpret that differently.

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Exactly this. The WoB outright says that on world there will be no noticeable difference. That it happens all the time and no one notices.

And we know that Maya was there all the time.

Brandon's rules are consistent. The reason the speed of light matters, and this is not just an assumption it is what Brandon says in that WoB, is that the difference between summoning a shardblade with your spren right net to you, and your spren on the opposite side of Roshar is going to be less a fraction of a heartbeat, because the size of Roshar is not vast enough for light to take any significant time to traverse.

Already covered this in an earlier response. please refer to that response.

Can I just state something to everyone in general? Disagreeing on theories, and having theories of your own is not intrinsically saying other theories are wrong. This is not an "us" vs "them" scenario. People can interpret things differently, and derive differing theories without negating another's experience. That is just my own two cents on this whole thing.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

How does a WoB which demonstrates a method by which lightspeed can be subverted, how worldhopping is possible, support this idea?

If the summoning mechanism functioned in the same manner as Cognitive travel, then there would be more pronounced variation in speed across the face of a world, and almost no difference between worlds because you'd be skipping over all of those "light-years in steps"

That's clearly the opposite of what he says about summoning a blade.

Brandon has said regarding the instantaneous travel regarding Oathgates runs into problems regarding the speed of light.That he would like it to function via the spiritual realm, which is all places and all times at once, but Peter would have a problem with it because of the speed of light so he is still working on reconciling the two to figure out how he wants to handle it.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Pathfinder

insert_anagram_here · February 13, 2019

19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That's clearly the opposite of what he says about summoning a blade.

I added that WoB because it mentions 'steps in light years' when traveling between worlds. I'm just trying to clear up this misunderstanding that speed of light is usually referenced by Brandon in 'off-world' traveling. Sorry if that actually complicated things further for you.

Pathfinder · February 13, 2019

Hey, just had a random thought. What if what Adolin is doing could be considered savantism for a shardblade bond? We have seen mistings, as well as soulcasters getting more than average out of their powers through repeated use and focus. Adolin does summon and unsummon Maya as a nervous habit and he has heavily practiced throwing the blade and other means of using it. This still runs into the issue of why hasn't anyone else done so before, but just a thought I had.

CrazyRioter · February 13, 2019

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Hey, just had a random thought. What if what Adolin is doing could be considered savantism for a shardblade bond? We have seen mistings, as well as soulcasters getting more than average out of their powers through repeated use and focus. Adolin does summon and unsummon Maya as a nervous habit and he has heavily practiced throwing the blade and other means of using it. This still runs into the issue of why hasn't anyone else done so before, but just a thought I had.

Savantism works because repeatedly channeling large amounts of Investiture changes your soul. With Shardblades there is little or no Investiture flowing through the person.

Pathfinder · February 13, 2019

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

Savantism works because repeatedly channeling large amounts of Investiture changes your soul. With Shardblades there is little or no Investiture flowing through the person.

Hmmm, not sure we can say there is no investiture going through the person with the shardblade, though I do agree the amounts wouldn't be great. We know a living radiant bond involves the spren filling the cracks in the Radiant's spirit web. When you force open those cracks further, causing more investiture to fill it, you are termed a savant. So if we were going on the premise that the bond with a dead shardblade is like a living shardblade bond (this is completely separate from my theory about involving a bondsmith, so interpreting information completely different), then one could reason that the dead shardblade is filling up those cracks with the bond. Though again, like I said, there still runs into the problem of being unable to "flare" summoning a shardblade, or at least I do not think we have seen that occur on screen. Interesting thoughts!

deacon · February 14, 2019

7 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Can I just state something to everyone in general? Disagreeing on theories, and having theories of your own is not intrinsically saying other theories are wrong. This is not an "us" vs "them" scenario. People can interpret things differently, and derive differing theories without negating another's experience. That is just my own two cents on this whole thing.

I would like to respond to this by saying that is already the understanding we have in a place like this. You and I and many others are responding to each other's posts, agreeing and disagreeing with others' interpretations. I agree. But if what we're doing qualifies as telling you you're wrong, then so are your responses. Pointing out weaknesses in an argument is not a rude thing in and of itself, yes; people love to theorize and guess and the discussion of those will involve disagreeing with each other. This kind of discussion is something I find fun, and I make the assumption this is the case for everyone else, but I don't enjoy having intentions or tones assumed of my posts when I didn't put it there. But maybe you were thinking of someone else when you wrote this, but it was left open.

That said, I think I'm with the topic for the moment. I do make reasonable inferences from the WoBs and in-book facts we're given, and it's not fun to get the response that the inference can't be true because such-and-such hasn't technically been ruled out. Requiring concrete evidence for others' theories but not requiring them for your own doesn't make for a fun conversation on the other side of it. Yes, yes, the 17th Shard is the Shard of Pedantry and a haven for splitting hairs, lol, but there comes a point when one is done. Til the next one, I guess.

Edited February 14, 2019 by deacon

insert_anagram_here · February 14, 2019

12 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Hey, just had a random thought. What if what Adolin is doing could be considered savantism for a shardblade bond? We have seen mistings, as well as soulcasters getting more than average out of their powers through repeated use and focus. Adolin does summon and unsummon Maya as a nervous habit and he has heavily practiced throwing the blade and other means of using it. This still runs into the issue of why hasn't anyone else done so before, but just a thought I had.

Not sure I understand the whole idea with Savantism yet, but it feels like Shardblades don't actually use much Investiture when they aren't providing Surges at least. Yes, they sever the Spiritual when they cut.. (Is Investiture needed for that?)

Maybe a Radiant of the 5th Ideal could potentially channel that kind of volume of Investiture, and become a Savant. Maybe that's what Heralds were essentially.

But I personally don't think just summoning a blade repeatedly, which was even bonded with a gem, would make a Savant.

Edited February 14, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

CrazyRioter · February 14, 2019

A Radiant could become a Savant by Surgebinding a lot, because they are channeling a lot of Investiture, but summoning and dismissing a blade, either living or dead, does not require Stormlight, nor does cutting things with them, so it's safe to say that using a Shardblade isn't channeling Investiture in a way that would create a savant.

Also, we know Adolin picked up his habit of summoning and dismissing the Blade repeatedly from Dalinar, who had his Blade for like more than twice as long as Adolin has had his, and he never experienced anything of this nature with it through all the time he was bonded with it.

Pathfinder · February 14, 2019

16 hours ago, deacon said:

I would like to respond to this by saying that is already the understanding we have in a place like this. You and I and many others are responding to each other's posts, agreeing and disagreeing with others' interpretations. I agree. But if what we're doing qualifies as telling you you're wrong, then so are your responses. Pointing out weaknesses in an argument is not a rude thing in and of itself, yes; people love to theorize and guess and the discussion of those will involve disagreeing with each other. This kind of discussion is something I find fun, and I make the assumption this is the case for everyone else, but I don't enjoy having intentions or tones assumed of my posts when I didn't put it there. But maybe you were thinking of someone else when you wrote this, but it was left open.

That said, I think I'm with the topic for the moment. I do make reasonable inferences from the WoBs and in-book facts we're given, and it's not fun to get the response that the inference can't be true because such-and-such hasn't technically been ruled out. Requiring concrete evidence for others' theories but not requiring them for your own doesn't make for a fun conversation on the other side of it. Yes, yes, the 17th Shard is the Shard of Pedantry and a haven for splitting hairs, lol, but there comes a point when one is done. Til the next one, I guess.

I disagree. If you would refer to quite a few pages back, the reason I started was to point out Maya healing is being presented as a fact is in error. I then, to illustrate why that is, gave examples that could dispute that assertion to show that Maya healing as a starting point is a theory. We can both agree shardblades cut stones, and then someone can build a theory on it. We do not however agree maya is healing. People can still build theories on that, but that does not preclude theories that think something else is happening with Maya. I feel if you would take the time to read my original post in this thread you would understand that. The theory that Maya is healing is perfectly valid. People can feel entitled to disagree and say why. What I disagree with is when someone specifically says "no, it does not work that way" "no, it cannot work that way" "no this won't happen" "no, if it works that way then the narrative would be bad for Adolin". Those are all assertions that I have shown that what that person is using to back up those statements are not as concrete as they claim. I view that as shutting down possibilities, rather than discussing them. You are perfectly entitled not to like it, and I respect that. Going forward I can not respond to your posts and you not respond to mine to respect that if you like. But otherwise I will continue doing as I have done. Thank you.

edit: for reference, if you would refer to page 4, my conversation with StrikerEZ. I thought it was quite enjoyable, where we both stated our theories, why we disagreed with each others and respected each other's views and ended it wishing each other luck. That is what I strive for, or at least what I feel I strive for.

11 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Not sure I understand the whole idea with Savantism yet, but it feels like Shardblades don't actually use much Investiture when they aren't providing Surges at least. Yes, they sever the Spiritual when they cut.. (Is Investiture needed for that?)

Maybe a Radiant of the 5th Ideal could potentially channel that kind of volume of Investiture, and become a Savant. Maybe that's what Heralds were essentially.

But I personally don't think just summoning a blade repeatedly, which was even bonded with a gem, would make a Savant.

Typically we have seen when an individual uses a power set often (soulcasters), or in great quanties (flaring metals), it widens the cracks in their spirit webs resulting in more utility in their abilities. I agreed and conceded that summoning a shardblade repeatedly probably does not result in a strong enough amount of investiture to widen those cracks. But thought it was an interesting thought to toss around all the same. Might cause a thought to be triggered that although unrelated, might lead to something.

11 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

A Radiant could become a Savant by Surgebinding a lot, because they are channeling a lot of Investiture, but summoning and dismissing a blade, either living or dead, does not require Stormlight, nor does cutting things with them, so it's safe to say that using a Shardblade isn't channeling Investiture in a way that would create a savant.

Also, we know Adolin picked up his habit of summoning and dismissing the Blade repeatedly from Dalinar, who had his Blade for like more than twice as long as Adolin has had his, and he never experienced anything of this nature with it through all the time he was bonded with it.

Good point about Dalinar, though I did bring up earlier that Dalinar did have a similar moment with oathbringer where it actively hated him less. Also on my re-read of Way of Kings, Dalinar comments to himself that he felt an eagerness and energy from his shardblade as he fought the chasmfiend. So there have been instances where he has felt something (albeit uncertain what that something is) from his shardblade.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Pathfinder

deacon · February 15, 2019

10 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I disagree. If you would refer to quite a few pages back, the reason I started was to point out Maya healing is being presented as a fact is in error. I then, to illustrate why that is, gave examples that could dispute that assertion to show that Maya healing as a starting point is a theory. We can both agree shardblades cut stones, and then someone can build a theory on it. We do not however agree maya is healing. People can still build theories on that, but that does not preclude theories that think something else is happening with Maya. I feel if you would take the time to read my original post in this thread you would understand that. The theory that Maya is healing is perfectly valid. People can feel entitled to disagree and say why. What I disagree with is when someone specifically says "no, it does not work that way" "no, it cannot work that way" "no this won't happen" "no, if it works that way then the narrative would be bad for Adolin". Those are all assertions that I have shown that what that person is using to back up those statements are not as concrete as they claim. I view that as shutting down possibilities, rather than discussing them. You are perfectly entitled not to like it, and I respect that. Going forward I can not respond to your posts and you not respond to mine to respect that if you like. But otherwise I will continue doing as I have done. Thank you.

edit: for reference, if you would refer to page 4, my conversation with StrikerEZ. I thought it was quite enjoyable, where we both stated our theories, why we disagreed with each others and respected each other's views and ended it wishing each other luck. That is what I strive for, or at least what I feel I strive for.

Truly, I don't see the difference between the conversation you and StrikerEZ had and the rest. They do not ring bells for me as being unusually good; it's all good. I was enjoying it up until recently. You can continue doing as you like, but if both of us are saying 'what you are doing inhibits discussion' and we choose to ignore that, then this is meaningless. Feel free to respond to posts of mine in the future, I'm not angry or anything.

Edited February 15, 2019 by deacon

Pathfinder · February 15, 2019

13 hours ago, deacon said:

Truly, I don't see the difference between the conversation you and StrikerEZ had and the rest. They do not ring bells for me as being unusually good; it's all good. I was enjoying it up until recently. You can continue doing as you like, but if both of us are saying 'what you are doing inhibits discussion' and we choose to ignore that, then this is meaningless. Feel free to respond to posts of mine in the future, I'm not angry or anything.

No worries. I bear you no ill will either and I wish you luck with your theories!

Ruti · May 12, 2019

1

On 1/30/2019 at 11:07 AM, IGetLIFTed said:

he would become an Edgedancer. That won’t happen though, unless something happens to Adolin to break him (apparently you must be broken to become a Knight Radiant).

Maybe finding out that Dalinar basically murdered Evi?

Ruti · May 12, 2019

On 2/5/2019 at 6:12 PM, Lightblood said:

Do you think we could convince Brandon to give Adolin a boomerang?

(sorry I'm seeing this months later but whatever V(' - ')V )since it seems pretty likely that Maya will be revived, and therefore able to change weapon forms like syl, could we have a shardboomerang? also, side note, now that you brought up avatar I want shallan to win some kind of award belt or medal and then let Adolin wear it because it goes with his suit and he can walk backwards and be like "Kohlin princedom!"

Karger · May 12, 2019

28 minutes ago, Ruti said:

shardboomerang

Great idea if you are amazing with a boomerang and it has a handle otherwise you are going to loose some fingers.

CrazyRioter · May 13, 2019

7 hours ago, Ruti said:

Maybe finding out that Dalinar basically murdered Evi?

I want to point out that Brandon has said it's not actually 100 percent necessary for a person to be 'broken' to become a Radiant.

That said, I do expect finding out what really happened to Evi to have a major impact on Adolin in book 4 and it will probably play into his arc with Maya.

Calderis · May 13, 2019

And I still say the idea that Adolin isn't "broken" is flawed in and of itself.

Winds Alight · May 13, 2019

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

And I still say the idea that Adolin isn't "broken" is flawed in and of itself.

TBH Roshar is a world where I fully believe that each and every single person living there must be broken in some way to survive. :lol:

ShardShaper · May 13, 2019

I've just got to say, giving Adolin scrambled surges VIA messed up bond is totally the kind of thing brandon would do.

If Maya revives, will she be the same?

Recommended Posts

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

RayW2

CrazyRioter

CrazyRioter

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites