If Maya revives, will she be the same?

[+Invocation]

If Adolin manages to revive Maya, will she actually be the same spren as before? If you forcibly rip the majority of a being's self out and replace it (even if it is exactly the same), is it the same being, in the same way as if you rebuild a boat exactly as it was before, replacing planks as they go bad, is it the same boat? What will the Cognitive and Spiritual ramifications of Maya's revival be?

If she is different enough to reflect in the other realms, would that make Adolin not technically an Edgedancer, regardless of powers and what Maya's bonded used to be, in the same way Renarin may technically not be a Truthwatcher?

Discuss.

[CrazyRioter]

She will probably be different than she once was, due to trauma if nothing else, but I don't think she will be fundamentally a different being and I think Adolin will end up as a basically-normal Edgedancer. They certainly won't be as weird as Renarin and Glys are.

Most of the interesting implications will be for how they relate to each other, and how others react to them.

[+Invocation]

17 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

They certainly won't be as weird as Renarin and Glys are.

But what if the "Enlightening" process is just changing the Investiture source from Honor to Odium and that's all Sja-anat is able to do, but Adolin accidentally repairs Maya with a different ratio of Honor-Cultivation Investiture? Not as Odium-corrupted and creepy, but still different from before.

[Dalakaar]

I wonder what would happen if Renarin or Lift went into Shadesmar and tried Regrowth/some form of Progression on her...

My personal hope is that Adolin doesn’t turn into a KR and Maya becomes something different if she’s “resurrected”. 

[CrazyRioter]

4 minutes ago, Invocation said:

But what if the "Enlightening" process is just changing the Investiture source from Honor to Odium and that's all Sja-anat is able to do, but Adolin accidentally repairs Maya with a different ratio of Honor-Cultivation Investiture? Not as Odium-corrupted and creepy, but still different from before.

I do not believe that a human soul contains enough raw Investiture to significantly affect a being of pure Investiture, even a damaged one.

2 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

I wonder what would happen if Renarin or Lift went into Shadesmar and tried Regrowth/some form of Progression on her...

My personal hope is that Adolin doesn’t turn into a KR and Maya becomes something different if she’s “resurrected”. 

I think the implications from the story and WoBs is that it would take a Nahel bond to heal her.

[Sunbringer]

I just really hope that Maya comes back. It would also be a huge step in getting most spren to trust humans again, since the damage that was caused by past radiants is being fixed now.

[goody153]

Probably lots of anger after she lives but i believe if she gets fixed by the stuff Adolin does then she is pretty much on Adolin's side.

[Dalakaar]

3 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I think the implications from the story and WoBs is that it would take a Nahel bond to heal her.

Did some digging between watching Angel with my girl. You're right, specifically the same person that broke it.

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Kaladin al'Thor

You mentioned before that it would be possible to revive a dead shard[blade], but it would be very difficult--

Brandon Sanderson

Very difficult.

Kaladin al'Thor

Like I think what you said is that it would have to be the same person that broke the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be the-- Yeah.

Kaladin al'Thor

So if it was an Edgedancer's blade if he made those same oaths could potentially he…

Brandon Sanderson

That would most likely not be enough. Something else would have to happen. Good guess though.

source

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That's interesting as it means the more plausible way for Maya to come back is if she was bonded to someone who is still alive from back then. That narrows the list bit, most likely suspect being Vedeledev. Which brings me to another WoB.

---

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are these old Radiants?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Those are Heralds. That's Ash, who you'll see that the very end of this [Oathbringer]. That's Jezrien who's also near the end. You haven't met her [Vedel] yet. Ishar, you have heard about. And it's identified in this book who he is. But those are artist interpretations of them, in-world. They're like the Sistine Chapel versions of the Heralds. They might not look exactly like that, but that is an in-world interpretation of them by an artist.

Footnote: Question refers to the Oathbringer endpaper art
source

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Yet...

Yet?

Yet!?

Edited January 13, 2019 by Dalakaar

[CrazyRioter]

It would be easiest for the person who broke it to do it like what happened with Kaladin and Syl, because they had a prior connection with the spren. But Brandon has hinted that it might be possible for another person to do it and something does seem to be happening with Adolin and Maya.

[Kon-Tiki]

Its also worth noting that all things Theylan Field are capital-w Weird. I used to think that all the Maya stuff was a temporary effect of Dalinar smashing realms together, but unlike most of the other effects of Theylan Field, Maya seems to have gotten stronger as more time passed, not weaker. I wonder if, since the Kholinar Strike Team went through the Perpendicularity and therefore got a more extreme dose of Spiritual Realm, Maya got a more permanently revivifying effect than say Taln. Though I'd want to see if Adolin can still communicate with her at the beginning of SLA4 to commit to a theory like this

[Gasper]

I suspect that Maya will be revived, maybe not to the extent of granting Adolin surgebinding, but at least to the point of healing from being a dead eye. Adolin is a very honorable person, even with his murder of Saedas (which I think was justified). That probably will change Maya, at least a little. One of my pet theories on this is that Adolin will only have access to Maya as a shardblade and not gain any surgebinding powers. He would effectively be a half Radiant.

[Void89]

Well that would depend on the "being alive state" of Maya - if for any reason she gets to be whole again and choses to bond with Adolin I don't see why he couldn't become a Radiant. As for the "how" this might come to be - we will see I guess.

Will she be the same? Hard to say "Spren don't change much" - But either way I guess we'll never see the "old Maya" so all the same for me

[insert_anagram_here]

The Nahel bond gives the Radiant the surges but Syl said that it takes back something as well.

I've got a feeling that spren 'steal' the character traits that make them sentient from the Radiant they are bonded to.

So whatever was ripped out of Maya when her first bond was broken, that part was something unique of that Radiant person. 

Tbh, I'm not even sure if it's a nahel bond forming. Maybe it's something else. 

[Winds Alight]

I definitely hope Maya can become "whole" again as a spren and bond with Adolin. I'd say if she's revived, she'll definitely want to bond with Adolin. She seems to like him a lot, even now.
May I just want it because I'd love to have Adolin skate through Urithiru and discovering his Radiant powers, but I'd say that's a valid thing to want, right?

[CrazyRioter]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The Nahel bond gives the Radiant the surges but Syl said that it takes back something as well.

I've got a feeling that spren 'steal' the character traits that make them sentient from the Radiant they are bonded to.

So whatever was ripped out of Maya when her first bond was broken, that part was something unique of that Radiant person. 

Tbh, I'm not even sure if it's a nahel bond forming. Maybe it's something else. 

. I don't think they "steal" anything. Normally spren are essentially piggybacking off their Radiant's connection to the Physical Realm.  Someone,(Ithink it was @Calderis had an interesting theory about how they were stuck in a Physical state but without an innate Physical aspect the Investiture that made up their Cognitive Aspect had to be used instead and that's why they are so messed up.

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

. I don't think they "steal" anything. Normally spren are essentially piggybacking off their Radiant's connection to the Physical Realm.  Someone,(Ithink it was @Calderis had an interesting theory about how they were stuck in a Physical state but without an innate Physical aspect the Investiture that made up their Cognitive Aspect had to be used instead and that's why they are so messed up.

Yep. 

I think what was "Ripped out" was the Physical Aspect of the Radiant themselves. Without the bond ending naturally and the spren reverting to the Cognitive being that they are supposed to be, they are left in a state that they are supposed to have a physical aspect, but lack one of their own. 

Because of this, the Investiture that composes them is redistributed into the physical realm, creating the blade, and it takes it from the only place that it can. The Cognitive Aspect of the spren itself, crippling them mentally. 

Just as a human in the Cognitive is still a living being, even when dismissed that Investiture would still be allocated for their Physical form.

The stronger the bond between Adolin and Maya becomes, the more Investiture that should be a part of her mind returns, and the more her Physical form will rely on his Physical Aspect. 

There's no Investiture "missing" from Maya in my opinion. Just misallocated. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Calderis

[Void89]

1 hour ago, Winds Alight said:

I definitely hope Maya can become "whole" again as a spren and bond with Adolin. I'd say if she's revived, she'll definitely want to bond with Adolin. She seems to like him a lot, even now.
May I just want it because I'd love to have Adolin skate through Urithiru and discovering his Radiant powers, but I'd say that's a valid thing to want, right?

IF Maya chooses Adolin, if it goes anyway like the relationship resolve in Oathbringer Maya will pop into existence, wink to Adolin, tell him "thanks" and then to storm off and bond with Navani

[CrazyRioter]

2 minutes ago, Void89 said:

IF Maya chooses Adolin, if it goes anyway like the relationship resolve in Oathbringer Maya will pop into existence, wink to Adolin, tell him "thanks" and then to storm off and bond with Navani

I don't see him reviving her without bonding with her, I think that's how it works. Granted she could then decide to leave, but I think breaking the bond at the point he'll have to get to to fully heal her is non-trivial and I don't think she'd want to anyway. I can't imagine her being anything other then incredibly grateful to him and wanting to stick around and help him.

[Void89]

10 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't see him reviving her without bonding with her, I think that's how it works. Granted she could then decide to leave, but I think breaking the bond at the point he'll have to get to to fully heal her is non-trivial and I don't think she'd want to anyway. I can't imagine her being anything other then incredibly grateful to him and wanting to stick around and help him.

Before OB I might have been inclined to believe that and take it for a sure thing, but now just everything seems possible xP (Also I don't think female Sprens are Adolin's type)

Edited January 13, 2019 by Void89

[ND103]

Here's a thought. Has anyone ever asked if Glys did time as a dead eye? What if we have seen the effects of a spren revived. Except it's not what it was, its now something different. Something new. Something more. 

 

Shallan's arc in the near future will include finding Sja-anat. Presumably Adolin decides to go with her. Sja-anat offers to revive Maya as a ploy to stay free. And next thing you know, we have another spren like Glys, or - Maya.... 

 

It's unlikely, but that would be consistent with the WoB that it requires something more. 

[StrikerEZ]

Personally, I don’t know why so many people don’t like the idea of Adolin reviving and bonding Maya. It makes perfect sense to me, and it seems like the most likely thing that will happen with them, given the evidence in the books. Everyone quotes that WoB about it requiring the original Radiant, but 1) it’s really old (it’s from 2015 ), 2) he’s also said it’s possible in other ways, and 3) evidence in books always supersedes evidence in WoBs, and there is a lot more evidence for Adolin reviving Maya than against.

[CrazyRioter]

 

3 hours ago, ND103 said:

Here's a thought. Has anyone ever asked if Glys did time as a dead eye? What if we have seen the effects of a spren revived. Except it's not what it was, its now something different. Something new. Something more. 

 

Shallan's arc in the near future will include finding Sja-anat. Presumably Adolin decides to go with her. Sja-anat offers to revive Maya as a ploy to stay free. And next thing you know, we have another spren like Glys, or - Maya.... 

 

It's unlikely, but that would be consistent with the WoB that it requires something more. 

Brandon has stated pretty explicitly that a dead spren has not been revived before, and while he's occasionally been misleading on purpose he doesn't tend to outright lie.

Quote

Questioner

So you said that, specifically on Roshar, shardblades haven't been revived? And, have they been on other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, no, there are very few things you could call shardblades on other worlds.

Questioner

Well, I meant the spren that were...

Brandon Sanderson

Ah ok, yeah yeah yeah. No let's just just...it hasn't ever happened before, and they, in-world, think it's impossible.

source

 

[Dalakaar]

1 hour ago, StrikerEZ said:

Personally, I don’t know why so many people don’t like the idea of Adolin reviving and bonding Maya.

I don't see why every PoV character has to be a KR. And to turn that around I'd say more people want that happening than don't. We can make a poll if you want for some completely unnecessary and irrelevant confirmation.  

I don't mind Maya coming backing, but I don't feel the need to see Adolin become a KR. In fact I see the need for a certain amount of PoVs to not be KRs to keep things in perspective. Adolin works well in that capacity, and was written in for his unique perspective on things already.

I already have an unsettling feeling of power-creep becoming a problem from the OB conclusion.

[CrazyRioter]

YMMV I guess. Besides, most of Brandon's PoV characters in most of his books have some form of magic, so it's not really a surprise.

Personally I think Navani would make a great non-Radiant PoV, since she has an important but non-combat role in the first place. She hasn't had many PoVs but that could change. For Adolin, the only other options would be for him to be sidelined or killed off. That's what frequently happens to 'token normals' in combat roles.

But I think this debate is maybe getting a bit off topic.

Edited January 14, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Dalakaar]

4 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

YMMV I guess.

For this line of discussion that is very true.

4 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

For Adolin, the only other options would be for him to be sidelined or killed off.

Super disagree with this though. That seems like a failure of imagination and sort of emphasizes why I want a non-magical/KR PoV. Actually why I want multiple PoVs that aren't KRs.

6 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Personally I think Navani would make a great non-Radiant PoV,

Definitely agree with though! She's a great insight into the world of fabrials.

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I'll go make a poll topic to move this tangent outta here too.