twenty second of the sun Posted March 22, 2019 Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 11 hours ago, Invocation said: That's an insult to Dalinar. At least Dalinar was a competent fighter. Moash did just fine against Ehlokar ,the child kicker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2019 58 minutes ago, twenty second of the sun said: Moash did just fine against Ehlokar ,the child kicker. He stabbed him in the back while he was distracted and already pretty much on the ground. That's not "doing just fine," that's being a coward and taking the easy way out because you know you won't make it any other way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twenty second of the sun Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 23 hours ago, Invocation said: He stabbed him in the back while he was distracted and already pretty much on the ground. That's not "doing just fine," that's being a coward and taking the easy way out because you know you won't make it any other way. (I would like to preface by saying I don't view moash as any sort of redeemable character) We know moash loses in a fight with Kaladin, we also know he is supposedly the fastest learner with the spear, as shown when he is the first person on the book to kill a fused, I don't disagree with moash being a coward ,I believe he is however more battle competent than you are letting on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 46 minutes ago, twenty second of the sun said: (I would like to preface by saying I don't view moash as any sort of redeemable character) We know moash loses in a fight with Kaladin, we also know he is supposedly the fastest learner with the spear, as shown when he is the first person on the book to kill a fused, I don't disagree with moash being a coward ,I believe he is however more battle competent than you are letting on. He can kill someone who is both overconfident and not expecting an actual fight (the Fused) or someone who is completely overwhelmed in the heat of a chaotic battle (Elhokar) and while he might not be a coward in the traditional sense, he does run away from his problems, focusing on making it someone else's fault, someone else to blame, and he does stab a guy in the back, then stabs a drunk madman. He bends to the next force that comes by that gives him an ounce of absolvement for the guilt he feels over his choices and makes him feel like everything that happened wasn't his fault, all with little prompting, committing fully the instant he gets a little taste of power again. We can agree, however, that Moash is not redeemable. Szeth was one thing (and even he was borderline unredeemable) but Moash is all the way gone. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twenty second of the sun Posted March 23, 2019 Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 Just now, Invocation said: He can kill someone who is both overconfident and not expecting an actual fight (the Fused) or someone who is completely overwhelmed in the heat of a chaotic battle (Elhokar) and while he might not be a coward in the traditional sense, he does run away from his problems, focusing on making it someone else's fault, someone else to blame, and he does stab a guy in the back, then stabs a drunk madman. He bends to the next force that comes by that gives him an ounce of absolvement for the guilt he feels over his choices and makes him feel like everything that happened wasn't his fault, all with little prompting, committing fully the instant he gets a little taste of power again. We can agree, however, that Moash is not redeemable. Szeth was one thing (and even he was borderline unredeemable) but Moash is all the way gone. I agree with you on moash being a coward and not deserving of a capitalized name,And when I said he was the opposite of Dalinar I meant that he has completley subscribed to Odium's philosophy . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, twenty second of the sun said: I agree with you on moash being a coward and not deserving of a capitalized name,And when I said he was the opposite of Dalinar I meant that he has completley subscribed to Odium's philosophy . Yeah, I can see that bit, but he's in no way Dalinar's opposite on the battlefield, just for the record, and he probably never will be now that the Thrill is locked up. Off the battlefield is a different matter, as you are saying. Edited March 23, 2019 by Invocation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted March 24, 2019 Report Share Posted March 24, 2019 What kills me most about Moash is that he is not even self questioning. Even at all time low levels for Dalinar he still tried to understand and justify his actions he still cared enough to abide by his principles as he understood them even if it caused him pain. Moash has not a moral fiber in his body. He is morally an infant who kills people in what is the adult equivalent of a tantrum. The only reason that he does feels unhappy right now is because his father figure (Kaladin) who he does admire happens to be disappointed in him not because he feels he violated any understanding of human decency. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Karger said: What kills me most about Moash is that he is not even self questioning. Even at all time low levels for Dalinar he still tried to understand and justify his actions he still cared enough to abide by his principles as he understood them even if it caused him pain. Moash has not a moral fiber in his body. He is morally an infant who kills people in what is the adult equivalent of a tantrum. The only reason that he does feels unhappy right now is because his father figure (Kaladin) who he does admire happens to be disappointed in him not because he feels he violated any understanding of human decency. He doesn't even feel bad about Kaladin anymore, not since the end of OB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaywalk Posted April 16, 2019 Report Share Posted April 16, 2019 *enters HQ* *stabs leader with spear* *leaves* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 7 hours ago, Jaywalk said: *enters HQ* *stabs leader with spear* *leaves* *spear fails to do anything due to immortality granted by being an embodiment of hatred* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardShaper Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 MOASH! DID! NOTHING! WRONG!!!!!!!!!! WHO HERE WOULD HAVE REACTED DIFFERENTLY THEN HE DID? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted April 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 40 minutes ago, ShardShaper said: MOASH! DID! NOTHING! WRONG!!!!!!!!!! WHO HERE WOULD HAVE REACTED DIFFERENTLY THEN HE DID? Moash did everything wrong. He is a petty, cowardly man that doesn't know how to let go of a grudge and defaults to his own choices being someone else's fault like he has no autonomy of action or thought. He willfully disregarded the fact that people can change and decided that he should be allowed to murder the king to satisfy his own grudge. That way of thinking would be just fine if the incident was more recent or he was able to accept that things have changed or he was willing to give up the assassination portion and just quietly hate Elhokar while still performing his duty, but he instead chose to betray Kaladin and all of Bridge Four for a years-old grudge against a man that wasn't even the primary offender (really, he should have been trying to kill Roshone, if anyone), then betray the humans of Roshar by siding with forces attempting to destroy them as a way to offset some of the guilt he feels for his choices. I have no pity in my heart for this pathetic excuse for a man, disagree his choices, and think he needs to grow up. Any person with sense would have reacted differently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardShaper Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 So you would have what? Let the man who murdered your only family live on in happiness? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiLyghtSansSparkles Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, ShardShaper said: So you would have what? Let the man who murdered your only family live on in happiness? Maybe not murder him in front of his only son, perpetuating the chain of pain and possibly instilling in the child a desire for the same bloody revenge you just exacted? Also, that's kind of a false binary. There are many, many, many alternatives in between "kill Elhokar in front of his kid" and "let Elhokar live the happy life you never got to have." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardShaper Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 Well, it was in the heat of battle. I'm not saying it was smart but there's no reason he should get all this hate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiLyghtSansSparkles Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 Just now, ShardShaper said: Well, it was in the heat of battle. I'm not saying it was smart but there's no reason he should get all this hate. He could have used the distraction of battle to drag Elhokar out of the room and kill him there, or toss him to enemy troops, or what have you. Or he could have taken him prisoner. Or delivered a The Reason You Suck Speech followed by "And that's why I'm going to spare you, because I don't want to be to your son as you were to me." And it's not just him killing Elhokar that's made so many people dislike him. There's also the fact all of his actions have been motivated by selfishness, up to and including him joining the Voidbringers at the end. Not to mention he just stood there while a fellow slave was beaten within an inch of his life and later had the audacity to see himself as a brave revolutionary. Kaladin would've intervened, even if it meant he was the one beaten nearly to death, just saying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted April 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, ShardShaper said: So you would have what? Let the man who murdered your only family live on in happiness? In happiness, no. Murder the guy? Also no. There are steps between that! I'd cause a bit of a ruckus, which the Alethi would eat up, given how little some of the other highprinces care for him or for being ruled by a king at all, instead of a being a generally selfish person that continues the cycle that got him in that situation in the first place. Edited April 25, 2019 by Invocation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardShaper Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 But you're continuing that very hate cycle with every Anti-Moash post. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacThorstenson Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 I Agree with invocation and TwiLyghtSansSparkles, with that added point that I'm pretty sure that brandon agrees as well. I was browsing arcanum and came across this Wob: Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] What was your motivation for killing Elhokar and simultaneously ripping my heart out? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] So, it was... I never feel like I'm killing characters, I'm writing characters take risks and I'm writing other characters have agency to do the things they're doing in the books. That whole plot cycle was less me killing someone off and more me letting Moash go down the dark path that he have been demanding that he go down. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Okay, but you realize half the fandom... practically all the fandom practically wants him dead now. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, yes. Well, they should! He made a very, very bad decision, and he deserves everything that the fandom is throwing at him. FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted April 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ShardShaper said: But you're continuing that very hate cycle with every Anti-Moash post. I'm not a character in the book. Moash is. I also do not actively attempt to sway people's opinions on Moash, only defending my own stance. Also, Brandon somewhat agrees. Quote Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] What was your motivation for killing Elhokar and simultaneously ripping my heart out? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] So, it was... I never feel like I'm killing characters, I'm writing characters take risks and I'm writing other characters have agency to do the things they're doing in the books. That whole plot cycle was less me killing someone off and more me letting Moash go down the dark path that he have been demanding that he go down. Questioner [PENDING REVIEW] Okay, but you realize half the fandom... practically all the fandom practically wants him dead now. Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] Yes, yes. Well, they should! He made a very, very bad decision, and he deserves everything that the fandom is throwing at him. FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019) Edit: STORM IT @MacThorstenson YOU BEAT ME TO THE WOB Edited April 26, 2019 by Invocation 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacThorstenson Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted April 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 Just now, MacThorstenson said: >:( 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardShaper Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Invocation said: I'm not a character in the book. Moash is. I also do not actively attempt to sway people's opinions on Moash, only defending my own stance. Also, Brandon somewhat agrees. So? You're your own person. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted April 26, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 Just now, ShardShaper said: So? You're your own person. Exactly, but I'm not doing the disapproving-of-Moash equivalent of stabbing someone's father in front of them to satisfy petty, somewhat misguided, revenge by attempting to change what other people think of Moash. I have my thoughts, and I defend them, but I don't tell people who are trying to read the series for the first time to hate Moash, and I have no issue with those who like Moash. I just personally don't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardShaper Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 1 minute ago, Invocation said: Stabbing someone's father in front of them to satisfy petty, somewhat misguided, revenge Um... Speaking of petty... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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