The Sovereign's Statue

[+Invocation]

On the statue of the Sovereign outside the temple in Bands of Mourning, there was the spearhead that was "aluminum" and some more metal as the statue's belt buckle that Wax declares as aluminum in the same way he did the spearhead.

Is it possible that this other bit of metal is also heavily Invested?

[RShara]

Wax checks the rest of the metal on the statue, specifically, and finds that they really are aluminum.

Quote

As the Malwish crew prepared the ship for travel, Wax stood before the statue of the Lord Ruler, with that single spike in his eye. He’d checked the belt, which was aluminum. No kind of charge. If there had ever been two bracers, he had to assume they’d been made into this one spearhead.

 

[+robardin]

6 hours ago, RShara said:

Wax checks the rest of the metal on the statue, specifically, and finds that they really are aluminum.

Hmm

How can he tell they have no charge (of Investiture)? He tests objects for being metalminds with Steelsight, but he can't Push on even ordinary aluminum.

Of course he's also new to the idea of aluminumminds in the first place...

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Hmm

How can he tell they have no charge (of Investiture)? He tests objects for being metalminds with Steelsight, but he can't Push on even ordinary aluminum.

Of course he's also new to the idea of aluminumminds in the first place...

He referring to whether or not the belt was the other bracer (i.e. the other Band of Morning).  He was able to use the spearhead as soon as he knew what it was, so he'd just have to touch the belt to know whether or not it was "charged."  The spearhead also wasn't just aluminum, but a combination of all the Allomantic metals, so a close inspection of the belt could confirm it's just aluminum

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

He referring to whether or not the belt was the other bracer (i.e. the other Band of Morning).  He was able to use the spearhead as soon as he knew what it was, so he'd just have to touch the belt to know whether or not it was "charged."  The spearhead also wasn't just aluminum, but a combination of all the Allomantic metals, so a close inspection of the belt could confirm it's just aluminum

The Bands must operate based on F-nicrosil; F-aluminum stores Identity. If the aluminum belt were a pure feruchemical store of Identity, keyed or otherwise, Wax couldn't know that without accessing the ability to tap it.

In other words, I would consider Wax's assessment of them as "just aluminum" based on his normal inspection for Investiture based on Steelsight to be invalid, and he may not have realized this.

He'd have to use the Bands to gain F-aluminum to check for it being an aluminummind (and only if it were unkeyed would he be able to tap it).

[Scion of the Mists]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

The Bands must operate based on F-nicrosil; F-aluminum stores Identity. If the aluminum belt were a pure feruchemical store of Identity, keyed or otherwise, Wax couldn't know that without accessing the ability to tap it.

In other words, I would consider Wax's assessment of them as "just aluminum" based on his normal inspection for Investiture based on Steelsight to be invalid, and he may not have realized this.

He'd have to use the Bands to gain F-aluminum to check for it being an aluminummind (and only if it were unkeyed would he be able to tap it).

Yes, I agree that there's no way for him to know whether or not the aluminum is actually an aluminummind.  However, I don't think that's what the passage is saying.  

I interpret 

Quote

He’d checked the belt, which was aluminum. No kind of charge. If there had ever been two bracers, he had to assume they’d been made into this one spearhead.

to be referring to whether or not the belt is another Band of Morning.  Not that Wax is claiming that it is definitely not an aluminummind.  

[RShara]

Well Wax assumed that the spearhead was aluminum just because he couldn't Push on it. Once they actually looked at the spearhead. Once they realized what it was and looked at it, they could see it was a bunch of different metals mixed together. So once they checked the belt, they could tell that it was just aluminum.

Whether it's an aluminum mind, if it's an unkeyed one, he should have been able to tell if he was also holding the Bands, right? And if it was unsealed, he should have been able to tell just from touching.

[+robardin]

On 11/01/2019 at 6:44 PM, Scion of the Mists said:

Yes, I agree that there's no way for him to know whether or not the aluminum is actually an aluminummind.  However, I don't think that's what the passage is saying.  

I interpret [it] to be referring to whether or not the belt is another Band of Morning.  Not that Wax is claiming that it is definitely not an aluminummind.  

So what you're saying is he only checked if they were another set of BoM type device (which would have a nicrosilmind band or ring somewhere with it) by picking it up and thinking "Go Go Sovereign Bands Power!" to no effect, and since it wasn't, concluded it was just plain aluminum.

I agree that that is very likely what he did, but to my mind, the specific additional phrase "no kind of charge" suggests he is assuming it is nothing more than what it appears to be, an aluminum belt, without thinking how odd it is to decorate a statue with an aluminum belt, when aluminum is still a rare metal on Scadrial.

I'm not saying Wax has ruled out it being an aluminummind. I'm saying Wax has not yet really thought about the possibility of it being an aluminummind.

Because what would that mean, anyway, if aluminum stores Identity? It was described by VenDell as a kind of runoff mechanism to drain Identity while filling another metalmind, to create an unkeyed metalmind. Does that imply that one could never create an unkeyed aluminummind, since apparently, Identity is exactly what is causing the keying of metalminds in the first place?

Wouldn't it be interesting if, by their very nature, all aluminumminds are "unkeyed" in that any Trueself Ferring could tap any aluminummind, and swap or overlay Identity with another Trueself Ferring?

Think about it: Sazed and other Full Feruchemist Keepers of Era 1 didn't have aluminum handy to use as metalminds. Other than hints dropped via the Word of Harmony, all the understanding of feruchemical use of it for Identity comes from research based on Ferrings in the Terris community of Era 2, where the Ars Arcanum gives the name of "Trueself Ferring" for this power, and states that "this ability is not fully understood, and is rarely discussed outside of Terris communities".

If the only use of an aluminummind by a Trueself Ferring was to store their own Identity into it and get it back again, how would that illuminate anything about "the spiritual sense of Identity" for Era 2 Terris researchers?

 

On 11/01/2019 at 9:01 PM, RShara said:

Well Wax assumed that the spearhead was aluminum just because he couldn't Push on it. Once they actually looked at the spearhead. Once they realized what it was and looked at it, they could see it was a bunch of different metals mixed together. So once they checked the belt, they could tell that it was just aluminum.

Whether it's an aluminum mind, if it's an unkeyed one, he should have been able to tell if he was also holding the Bands, right? And if it was unsealed, he should have been able to tell just from touching.

Yes, I agree, but the text only says that "he'd checked the belt" (past tense) while the Malwish ship was preparing to leave the temple site, which doesn't specify that he did so while holding the Bands.

In fact, I think the entire time he held the Bands is accounted for in the narrative: he got it handed to him by Marasi, using its goldmind and F-gold power to heal himself, then rampaged around, then tossed it out the window to confront his uncle.

At some point after landing on the ground on top of his uncle and decking him across the face, Wax retrieves the Bands from the snow and uses its Super-Lurching (and some of its stored feruchemical Super-Weight, since he'd emptied his own ironmind in one massive tap to break through the floor in his duel with his uncle) to keep the airship the Set are on from escaping.

After he sets the airship down and the Set crew come out in surrender comes the scene where he argues with Captain Jordis about access to the Bands, where Steris brokers the mutual acceptance of MeLaan the kandra acting as a neutral (and divine) party as its custodian.

So I think his "checking the belt" happened after MeLaan took the Bands, while the Malwish reasserted control over their airship, and before it was ready for takeoff to Elendel.

Edited January 11, 2019 by robardin

[+Invocation]

46 minutes ago, robardin said:

Because what would that mean, anyway, if aluminum stores Identity? It was described by VenDell as a kind of runoff mechanism to drain Identity while filling another metalmind, to create an unkeyed metalmind. Does that imply that one could never create an unkeyed aluminummind, since apparently, Identity is exactly what is causing the keying of metalminds in the first place?

 

I have a theory as to what that aluminummind could be for: it's Kell's backup.

[+robardin]

Just now, Invocation said:

I have a theory as to what that aluminummind could be for: it's Kell's backup.

Well if it IS storing someone's Identity for laterz, there can be little question as to whose Identity it would be, eh?

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Well if it IS storing someone's Identity for laterz, there can be little question as to whose Identity it would be, eh?

Yeah, but I'm talking a full backup of who Kelsier is. That is an entire backup for him in case he has to go back to being a disembodied Shadow for a while, so that he could tap it once he got a body again. He's made it to where he can always find himself again. 

[Weltall]

Bear in mind that feruchemists can sense when a metalmind has a charge even if they can't use it themselves. When Vin tries burning one of Sazed's metalminds as an experiment, he recognizes her description of what the metal 'feels' like because it's the same thing that he feels when holding a metalmind filled with another feruchemist's charge. All that Wax would need to do to test if the aluminum on the statue is a metalmind is to hold the Bands and then touch the aluminum while thinking that it might be a metalmind, and he'd be able to know whether it's got any charge or not.

Quote

“I…can feel the power, Saze. It’s faint—far beyond my grasp—but I swear that there’s another reserve within me, one that only appears when I’m burning your metal.”

Sazed frowned. “It’s faint, you say? Like…you can see a shadow of the reserve, but can’t access the power itself?”

Vin nodded. “How do you know?”

“That’s what it feels like when you try to use another Feruchemist’s metals, Mistress,” Sazed said, sighing. “I should have suspected this would be the result. You cannot access the power because it does not belong to you.”

In fact, the only way that Wax checking the aluminum makes any sense is if he did it while holding the Bands. He can't even detect aluminum much less Push it so doing his 'steelsight test' like he did to figure that the gold bracelet was carrying a charge wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Edited January 11, 2019 by Weltall

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

Bear in mind that feruchemists can sense when a metalmind has a charge even if they can't use it themselves. When Vin tries burning one of Sazed's metalminds as an experiment, he recognizes her description of what the metal 'feels' like because it's the same thing that he feels when holding a metalmind filled with another feruchemist's charge. All that Wax would need to do to test if the aluminum on the statue is a metalmind is to hold the Bands and then touch the aluminum while thinking that it might be a metalmind, and he'd be able to know whether it's got any charge or not.

In fact, the only way that Wax checking the aluminum makes any sense is if he did it while holding the Bands. He can't even detect aluminum much less Push it so doing his 'steelsight test' like he did to figure that the gold bracelet was carrying a charge wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Well we'll just have to disagree.

Sazed was a Full Feruchemist; I don't think Wax, as a Ferring for iron (Skimmer), could sense a metalmind that wasn't an ironmind. The way I understand it, it's not true that a "feruchemist can sense a metalmind having a charge even if they can't use it themselves" - it has to be a sense for the power that is inaccessible due to the Identity keying, whereas a Ferring wouldn't sense anything in any other metal than "theirs" any more than a non-feruchemist would.

But neither is made clear in the text, as far as I know; if there's a WoB about this, I'd be interested to read it.

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by robardin

[Weltall]

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

Sazed was a Full Feruchemist; I don't think Wax, as a Ferring for iron (Skimmer), could sense a metalmind that wasn't an ironmind.

Wax had the Bands of Mourning, he literally was a Full Feruchemist at the time he inspected the statue. Since his A-Steel trick to detect whether a bit of metal is a metalmind would be useless on aluminum, the only way he could have tested the aluminum on the statue (and thus the only way that line makes sense) is if he did it while holding the Bands and thus had the full slate of feruchemical abilities that would let him detect if the metal was an aluminummind.

[+robardin]

13 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Wax had the Bands of Mourning, he literally was a Full Feruchemist at the time he inspected the statue. Since his A-Steel trick to detect whether a bit of metal is a metalmind would be useless on aluminum, the only way he could have tested the aluminum on the statue (and thus the only way that line makes sense) is if he did it while holding the Bands and thus had the full slate of feruchemical abilities that would let him detect if the metal was an aluminummind.

And as I said, I don't interpret Wax as having had the Bands when he inspected the statue.

Basically, until I'm proven wrong, I'm putting forth the theory that the "aluminum belt" on the statue of the Sovereign at his temple was not just a decorative belt, but an aluminummind (the only other thing it could reasonably be that's "special"), and that Wax simply hasn't thought about that yet because he's had a lot of other stuff to deal with.

I admit he COULD have inspected the aluminum belt for a feruchemical store with the Bands. I just don't think he did, and I don't think he thought enough about it to realize he might need to do so. I also think the text supports that, as he doesn't really have enough time to do it while in possession of the Bands. You'd have to be inferring all this investigation of the belt before giving the Bands to MeLaan as off-screen activity that was deeper than a simple, normal, everyday-Wax-type inspection of a metal object (visual, scientific, and Steelsight) meriting a casual POV thought from him that results in "Eh, not another Bands of Mourning, and it holds no kind of charge".

Edited January 12, 2019 by robardin

[SwordNimiForPresident]

If it is a metalmind, it’s probably the one that he used while filling the bands. I can’t imagine that it’s very relevant to the story though. Aluminum Feruchemy’s purspose is the making of unkeyed metalminds. Tapping one isn’t going to turn you into Kelsier. As for the part about it being unkeyed, I would think that all aluminumminds must be unkeyed given that you are storing Identity.