Ripheus23

Unity and Honor, Harmony and Discord

55 posts in this topic

Im with @Calderis on this one: the Shards definitely have their own Intents, but it's a very primal, conceptual thing (one might even say Spiritual).  The manifestation of that Intent is then translated into a more solidified Cognitive Concept by the Vessel.  The analogy I lean toward is Language Translation: there are often fundamental concepts that simply dont translate perfectly from one language/culture to another (because of differences in Perspective, Connotation, etc), so the details of the same concept can get altered/warped when the idea gets passed from one person to another. 

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9 hours ago, Calderis said:

Take the concept of civilization. We all live in a civilization, but at the core of it, every one of us has a slightly different interpretation of what that means, regardless of all witnessing it. 

Before discussing this remark, part of a WoB:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I did take a... I took a lot of philosophy classes, if you can't tell, during my undergraduate years. I was quite fond of philosophy. Though the philosophers were all really needed to learn how to write. Man, those guys just, I mean, paragraphs like this that don't really even say anything. I love the ideas, but man, they could use editors. But, yeah, I enjoyed my philosophy classes, and I really liked philosophy of art in particular, it's very interesting to me. The whole Oscar Wilde's intro to Dorian Gray is my favorite speech on art, that all art is, by necessity, useless. Stuff like that really, really gets me going.

source

There are a remarkable number of similarities between Kant's philosophy, and Realmatics, and if any philosopher "needed to learn how to write" or could "use editors," Kant would perhaps be #1 on a list of those. So as far as the difference between an interpretation of a Shardic Intent, and such an Intent itself, goes, I think the following from Kants' Critique of Pure Reason is apropos:

Quote

... no a priori conception, such as those of substance, cause, right, fitness, and so on, can be defined. For I can never be sure, that the clear representation of a given conception (which is given in a confused state) has been fully developed, until I know that the representation is adequate with its object. But, inasmuch as the conception, as it is presented to the mind, may contain a number of obscure representations, which we do not observe in our analysis, although we employ them in our application of the conception, I can never be sure that my analysis is complete, while examples may make this probable, although they can never demonstrate the fact. Instead of the word definition, I should rather employ the term exposition: a more modest expression, which the critic may accept without surrendering his doubts as to the completeness of the analysis of any such conception. ... For, as all so-called philosophical definitions are merely analyses of given conceptions, these conceptions, although only in a confused form, must precede the analysis; and the incomplete exposition must precede the complete, so that we may be able to draw certain inferences from the characteristics which an incomplete analysis has enabled us to discover, before we attain to the complete exposition or definition of the conception.[Transcendental Doctrine of Method: The Discipline of Pure Reason]

An Intent, here, would be a concept which is incapable of a perfect definition, but only an exposition, which would be its interpretation.

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Then you're completely misunderstanding me. 

What they consciously believe about the power has absolutely no bearing. What they picked up would be be whatever the core intent of Devotion is and that core would be filtered through them into a manifestation that is appropriate. Their belief that it was Ambition would be absolutely meaningless. 

 

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Then you're completely misunderstanding me. 

What they consciously believe about the power has absolutely no bearing. What they picked up would be be whatever the core intent of Devotion is and that core would be filtered through them into a manifestation that is appropriate. Their belief that it was Ambition would be absolutely meaningless. 

Well then how could two people, in this case Dalinar and Tanavast, interpret the same Shard to mean two completely different things that are only tangentially related at best? Honor and unity are not synonyms or even near-synonyms. One could argue that one is often the result of the other, but that’s something else.

When I think of a Vessel reinterpreting the intent of their Shard, it’s always to some near-synonym of it. Like Honor to ‘Virtue’ or ‘Honesty’, Devotion to ‘Love’ or ‘Compassion’, or Preservation to ‘Stability’ or ‘Persistence’. Because those are all conceptually very similar. But I’ve always been of the opinion that Honor and Unity sound more like two completely separate Shards, and I’m rather partial to the theory that Unity was one of the Sixteen but was immediately destroyed by the rest out of fear that it would want to reform Adonalsium.

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Well then how could two people, in this case Dalinar and Tanavast, interpret the same Shard to mean two completely different things that are only tangentially related at best? Honor and unity are not synonyms or even near-synonyms. One could argue that one is often the result of the other, but that’s something else.

"Honor" is the need to be bound by rules.

I think that, at its core, is much more important to the shard than the how. Honor is focused generally, whereas Unity would be focused more on the overarching. And in the Hypothetical Sadeas situation I think it would be much more self serving, and is why I put forward the "Discipline" name. All are very different, and all have that binding to rules as a core tenant. 

I've been saying for a while that I think we're too focused on the names we've been given when it comes to the Shards, and I absolutely believe it is an intentional misdirection. 

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Hmm...

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Dalinar Unity because he's the combination of all three Shards, through the Thrill, the boon and curse, and the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I'm leaving that as a RAFO, Read and Find Out, but that's a very good theory.

source

 

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

"Honor" is the need to be bound by rules.

I think that, at its core, is much more important to the shard than the how. Honor is focused generally, whereas Unity would be focused more on the overarching. And in the Hypothetical Sadeas situation I think it would be much more self serving, and is why I put forward the "Discipline" name. All are very different, and all have that binding to rules as a core tenant. 

I've been saying for a while that I think we're too focused on the names we've been given when it comes to the Shards, and I absolutely believe it is an intentional misdirection. 

So would a better analogy possibly be that the intent of any given Shard is a bit like the fundamental laws of physics in String Theory? That is, there’s only one fundamental set of physical laws, but depending on the way any given universe’s hidden dimensions are ‘folded’, they manifest themselves is seemingly very different ways? In this case, the true ‘laws’ are analogous to the true Shardic Intent, and the subconscious properties of any given Vessel are analogous to the effective laws resulting from the hyperspatial vacuum structure of various universes? (That really is the best analogy I can think of, I’m not just nerding out).

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1 hour ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

So would a better analogy possibly be that the intent of any given Shard is a bit like the fundamental laws of physics in String Theory? That is, there’s only one fundamental set of physical laws, but depending on the way any given universe’s hidden dimensions are ‘folded’, they manifest themselves is seemingly very different ways? In this case, the true ‘laws’ are analogous to the true Shardic Intent, and the subconscious properties of any given Vessel are analogous to the effective laws resulting from the hyperspatial vacuum structure of various universes? (That really is the best analogy I can think of, I’m not just nerding out).

That actually works pretty well. I think that every Shard has a Core Intent, but the names we've been given are only the Interpretation of the Only Vessel that's ever held them. 

After all... 

Quote

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Given that Shards, and perhaps, Ascended beings, have intents similar to their names.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

More that they have names similar to their intents.

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

So, would Unity be a natural enemy of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Um... Possibly. You say "natural,"

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, would one eliminate the other one? But more towards Autonomy trying to break up...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

To break up Unity. It's so hard to say, because Autonomy is a bit of a strange duck. Like, what counts as being Autonomous? Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? That's kind of your question that you get into. And the way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural effect, or part of the...? Does that make sense?

WinespringBrother [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

source

 

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Isn't there a WOB where Brandon says the names of the intents are abstract interpretations that fits close but not completely.

For example Honor isn't really Honor, but it's a good description.

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I found Stormfathers reaction to be curious. He's not sure, yet accepts the words. Feels like it's part of something that honor was part of. You see the trees but not the forest thingy. When Stormfather says this hasn't happened before, Dalinar replies 

Quote

"A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar?

“We are Connected.”

I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.

“Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will.”

1) This shows Unity is different from Honor due to Dalinar will.

2) If it was so different and new (Dalinar specific) then Odium should not have recognized it, but he does..... 

3) it's curious that Dalinar differentiates between Honors remanents and Stormfather soul. Means he's more than just a shadow of honor as described elsewhere. Stormfather may be Honor mixed with a bit of Cultivation.

A even more radical theory...

The only explanation when all above could be true is when we assume Unity is Adonalsium. It's different because Dalinar has taken a step above Honor. This is possible because Honor and Cultivation has lot more overlaps and intrinsically mixed than we know for now. Perhaps Dalinar absorbed some if Cultivation influence (though she's still alive) through Honor. Odium recognizes Unity because it's still an aspect of Adonalsium than Honor.

Is Unity referring to Adonalsium? When Odium says "We killed you" he's probably referring to the splintering and killing of Adonalsium and not Honor. (Also Harmony is a subset of Unity. Without Harmony there cannot be Unity B))

Perhaps the end result of the series would be to reunite Adonalsium and complete the circle. Possibly at end of Dragonsteel.  Dalinar becomes the aspect of Adonalsium and unites all shards back. 

 

I'll get back to my drink. :wacko:

Edited by TequilaJack
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Harmony is not an intent, but the name Sazed gave the new shard. The powers being held in 'harmony'.

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19 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Harmony is not an intent, but the name Sazed gave the new shard. The powers being held in 'harmony'.

That is precisely what intent means, a generic description. 

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1 hour ago, TequilaJack said:

"A direct conduit to the Spiritual Realm, the Stormfather said. You renew spheres, Dalinar?

“We are Connected.”

I was bonded to men before. This never happened then.

“Honor was alive then. We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will.”

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is RAFO.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to fuel *inaudible*.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand. But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

I only noticed this because of @TequilaJack‘s post.  But does it annoy anyone else that the text in OB was so misleading in light of this new WoB?  I can see how the passage could be interpreted so that summoning a perpendicularly was not new to the Stormfather.  He could have been surprised about Dalinar refilling spheres because it meant he’d sworn his oath when the Stormfather had been sure he’d turn to Odium.  And in the next sentence he is talking about whatever he has never seen before instead of Dalinar’s new ability.  

But dang it Brandon!  You could have made that passage so much clearer!  When a character mentions he is surprised by something, and then in the next sentence mentions “this” is something he’s never seen before, readers assume “this” refers to whatever the character was talking about in the previous sentence!  And don’t tell me this is our fault for jumping to conclusions.  Brandon even admitted in the footnote of the above WoB that he was unintentionally misleading in previous questions about this topic.

Edited by ILuvHats
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TequilaJack,

That different. Harmony's intent is due to Sazed being able to balance the shards in harmony.

The other Shards intent is based on Uncle Andy's personality traits

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6 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

it's curious that Dalinar differentiates between Honors remanents and Stormfather soul. Means he's more than just a shadow of honor as described elsewhere. Stormfather may be Honor mixed with a bit of Cultivation.

Your conflating a few things here.

Honor's remnants should be the pieces of the Shard itself, of which the Stormfather is only one large piece. 

The Stormfather's soul would be... Well the Stormfather, which happens to contain the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. The former Vessel of honor. Not Honor itself.

6 hours ago, TequilaJack said:

That is precisely what intent means, a generic description. 

Intent is not actually a Canon term. Chaos coined it and we use it because we don't have a Canon term.

Harmony is not the intent of the Shards Sazed holds. There are two of those still. 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Your conflating a few things here.

Honor's remnants should be the pieces of the Shard itself, of which the Stormfather is only one large piece. 

The Stormfather's soul would be... Well the Stormfather, which happens to contain the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. The former Vessel of honor. Not Honor itself.

Intent is not actually a Canon term. Chaos coined it and we use it because we don't have a Canon term.

Harmony is not the intent of the Shards Sazed holds. There are two of those still. 

This is something I’ve always been confused about. Is the Stormfather literally Tanavast now? That is, is Tanavast’s ghost/mind still alive within the Stormfather similar to how Kelsier briefly ‘lived’ within Preservation’s power before ultimately becoming autonomous again? Or is ‘cognitive shadow’ being used in yet another completely different way in this context? Because honestly, I’ve seen no evidence whatsoever that Tanavast lingers on in any meaningful sense, within the Stormfather or otherwise.

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Fanghur Rahl,

I'm the same. What's the deal with Tanavast cognitive shadow. I'm sure we will eventually find out.

My original theory, he hid there so Cultivation could find out how to shatter a shard. Aka suicide to gain knowledge.

She is now waiting for Odium to be defeated or some specific time to bring Tanavast back and create a body for him to then retake Honor.

Again this is pre-OB

 

 

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Yeah, I really wish Brandon would stop playing hijinx with his terms so much. All it does is confuse the issue. If I had to pick one thing about Brandon’s writing I disliked, it would without a doubt be his tendency to not rigorously or even adequately flesh out the terms he uses and use them consistently. Like how many completely different definitions of ‘soul’ does he use interchangeably? Or ‘spren’? Or ‘ascend’?

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13 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Yeah, I really wish Brandon would stop playing hijinx with his terms so much. All it does is confuse the issue. If I had to pick one thing about Brandon’s writing I disliked, it would without a doubt be his tendency to not rigorously or even adequately flesh out the terms he uses and use them consistently. Like how many completely different definitions of ‘soul’ does he use interchangeably? Or ‘spren’? Or ‘ascend’?

Generally he doesn't. He either acknowledges terms don't fit, just doesn't tell us the full definition so we make incorrect assumptions, or uses imperfect narrators to mess with us.

But Brandon himself is pretty good.

Take "Spren" for example, could be the flame representing someone in Shadesmare, a Shadesmar bead, or a sapient manifestation of Investiture. But that's not Brandon, it's the people of Roshar you need to be mad at.

Now if you don't like that Brandon messes with us, that makes sense, but it is at least intentional.

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18 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Stormfather's soul would be... Well the Stormfather, which happens to contain the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast. The former Vessel of honor. Not Honor itself.

Wut? Where does this conginitive shadow business come from? I remember no parts which differentiates Honor front Tanavast. The only mention which I refer was stormfather being a pale shadow of Honor. Nothing else and Tanavast wasn't even mentioned there. For all intents and purposes, they are the same. 

So you're saying the conginitive shadow of holders of the splintered shards (like Aona or Skai) still exist? 

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1 hour ago, Jace21 said:

Generally he doesn't. He either acknowledges terms don't fit, just doesn't tell us the full definition so we make incorrect assumptions, or uses imperfect narrators to mess with us.

But Brandon himself is pretty good.

Take "Spren" for example, could be the flame representing someone in Shadesmare, a Shadesmar bead, or a sapient manifestation of Investiture. But that's not Brandon, it's the people of Roshar you need to be mad at.

Now if you don't like that Brandon messes with us, that makes sense, but it is at least intentional.

I admit, this pet peeve largely stems from the fact that I’m a biologist by education and thus am a stickler for rigorously classifying things. But regardless, even allowing some latitude for impish misdirection on his part, I just think that he takes it a bit far sometimes. Just not defining it and leaving it to the readers to intuit it based on context is one thing, but defining it in multiple completely different mutually exclusive ways in different books/sections and then using the same label interchangeably thereafter in WOBs and books is just bad form in my opinion. Cognitive shadows and souls are by far the most egregious examples of this. 

And Syl and Nightblood and the Fused should not be regarded as belonging to the same specific category; I will be saying that until I die. 

Edited by Fanghur Rahl
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1 hour ago, TequilaJack said:

Wut? Where does this conginitive shadow business come from? I remember no parts which differentiates Honor front Tanavast. The only mention which I refer was stormfather being a pale shadow of Honor. Nothing else and Tanavast wasn't even mentioned there. For all intents and purposes, they are the same. 

So you're saying the conginitive shadow of holders of the splintered shards (like Aona or Skai) still exist? 

Tanavast was the Vessel of Honor. Just as Leras and Ati were the Vessels of Preservation and Ruin. The shard itself can't have a Cognitive Shadow because the mind of the Shard was a person in the first place. 

Yes, they could absolutely hang around. If  human can become a Cognitive Shadow just by being immersed in the power of a Shardpool when their already dead, holding a Shard itself is going to anchor the soul indefinitely.

They don't have to stay. They can choose to go beyond, just as Ati did. Just as Vin did. And they can also be killed/destroyed/changed so even if they had decided to hang around they may not have survived. 

Khriss at least believes that the Cognitive Shadows of Aona and sky are died. 

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Tanavast was the Vessel of Honor. Just as Leras and Ati were the Vessels of Preservation and Ruin. The shard itself can't have a Cognitive Shadow because the mind of the Shard was a person in the first place. 

Yes, they could absolutely hang around. If  human can become a Cognitive Shadow just by being immersed in the power of a Shardpool when their already dead, holding a Shard itself is going to anchor the soul indefinitely.

They don't have to stay. They can choose to go beyond, just as Ati did. Just as Vin did. And they can also be killed/destroyed/changed so even if they had decided to hang around they may not have survived. 

Khriss at least believes that the Cognitive Shadows of Aona and sky are died. 

Why would Honor create Stormfather and just let Tanavast part in and not his own remains? Tanavast creating stormfather without Honor is also flimsy.

Either way how did Odium recognize Unity with no knowledge of Dailnar's will? 

Edited by TequilaJack
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TequilaJack 

The Stormfather was around before Uncle Andy was shattered. 

When Tanavast took up Honor, the Shard of Honor was not sentient, the sentience of Honor was Tanavast, the vessal. 

1/16th of Uncle Andy went to the shard Honor, which incorporated the Stormfather. So Uncle Andy created him not Tanavast. 

How many Cosmere books have you read?

Edit...

The Shards themselves have not created anything intentionally wise, it's the vessals that intentionally create things, or modify.

 

Edited by Thanatos
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6 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Cognitive shadows and souls are by far the most egregious examples of this. 

And Syl and Nightblood and the Fused should not be regarded as belonging to the same specific category; I will be saying that until I die. 

Souls I'll give you. Cognitive shadows he is usually ok on except when asked to explain what one is, which requires ambiguous terms like soul. While I dont see it as purely his fault as it is vague in real life, it is definitely confusing in the WoBs. I have no issue him using multiple terms on the book myself.

Syl and Nightblood I buy. The Fused are the odd one out, which realmatically, thay are. He does love playing with people and the terms they use though, I see how it could be a bit much.

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