Question about the Diagram, Dalinar, and Taravangian.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

First off, I agree with @Calderis and @teknopathetic that the diagram is a master work of Cultivation, and that it required the intervention of Cultivation to pull it off. His variable intelligence is probably not random at all, but is rather the key to how the Diagram functions. As the architect, primary interpreter and only one allowed to modify the diagram, Taravangian is the Living Key to the complex cipher that is the diagram. This seems to me that Cultivation created the Diagram with her futuresight, and built in the capacity for self-correction with T's boon/bane. When the Diagram is humming along as it should be, T has one of his weeping and drooling days, when small course corrections are required he get's a highly intelligent day to make annotations / minor corrections to the course of the Diagram, and when the causal chains of events have spun severely out of line with the overall plan he gets a brilliant day (like the day that he changes his plans about Dalinar).

I don't necessarily agree with this. Renarin was spared by Jasnah as an act of compassion and there was an alternative future where Renarin was killed by Jasnah that Odium still sees. T met with Odium during one of his compassionate dumb days, and was thinking about his grandkids when he struck the new deal with Odium. It seems highly significant to me that T knows about the one person who exists outside of Odium's futuresight (who is still alive because of a compassionate act), sounds like a hidden dagger to me. I've speculated before that maybe Odium is blinded by Compassion, and maybe that's the secret to why T, on his dumb days is extra opaque to Odium.

I don't think this is true, and the proof for this being not the case is that the version of the Diagram that Odium brought up contained part of the Diagram that Odium himself couldn't see. I think it's more the case that Odium drew forth the whole diagram in toto, and then possibly attempted to muddy the waters by the future additions (which Taravangian would have obsessed over if he had been having a more brilliant day).

 

I actually don't agree with this at all, the second WoB you quote shows that they are distinct and disparate entities, this line in particular (emphasis added):

If they are virtually the same thing, then what lesson is the Nightwatcher learning by bestowing boons/banes?

This is inline with a speculative theory of mine, the foundation is solid but the superstructure is a little shaky. My theory is that the Nightwatcher is a "Remade", that she is actually Chemoarish, and Cultivation is rehabilitating her after her Unmaking from Odium. The descriptions of the Nightwatcher from OB are super creepy, and the fact that Cultivation is supervising the Nightwatcher while she dispense boons/banes is odd unless there is a reason that the Nightwatcher might need to supervise the NW. I know the full text of the above WoB says that Cultivation doesn't intervene to change the NW's boons, but this could be because at this point the Nightwatcher is rehabilitated enough that she only needs supervision and not intervention.  And there's this WoB that says that the green mist that is suffusing the Nightwatcher is actually Cultivation investiture:

The fact that Cultivation is described as a warm soft brownish color (and not green and misty) implies to me that the Nightwatcher is suffused with and not necessarily composed of Cultivation investiture.

The connection to Chemoarish is more tentative, here's the only information we get about which is from Hessi's Mythica:

And like the follwing WoB, it's always struck me as peculiar that there are 3 Invested shards and 3 Bondsmiths on Roshar:

The parity between God level spren and shards seems significant, and I think that it worked out like this (total speculation here, but almost to the level of reasoned conjecture). We know from WoBs that were existent spren on Roshar before the 3 were Invested in Roshar and that the magical ecology of Roshar predates the arrival of the Shards. So I think that there were already god level spren on Roshar pre-splintering and that they were responsible for maintaing the Ecology of Roshar:

• The Stormfather for distributing Investiture to accomplish singer transformations and to distribute Crem.
• The Sibling (most likely LifeBrother) who was responsible for infusing the Crem with additional investiture to make plants grow on the Rocky soil of Roshar.
• The Nightwatcher, responsible for the Old magic that flows out to creatures on Roshar (magical purelake fish, Floating Island great shells, Chasmfiends, etc).

When Investing on Roshar, the 3 shards got one of each of these ecological god level spren, and the Bondsmiths were able to bond these god level spren. Honor got the Storms to distribute Stormlight, Cultivation got LifeBrother (aka the Sibling, who I also think is a collection of StormStriders that move with the Highstorm) to infuse crem with investiture to aid life on roshar (I think it's a magical side effect that plant's can move on roshar) and Odium got the Nightwatcher (and then Unmade the Nightwatcher to turn her into Chemoarish).

One of the problems with the 3 Bondsmiths bond the 3 god spren theory is the obvious question of why would Odium's god spren bond a KR? I think the answer to this is that the KR bondsmith responsible for bonding the Odium controlled god spren bonded the spren forcibly and was necessary to contain Chemoarish. The Dustmother (there is definitely a naming parallel with Stormfather there) is a pretty frightening name and she was probably a pretty horrible force when loose on Roshar.

How did Cultivation rehabilitate the Dustmother and turn her into the Nightwatcher? Well, she has had the 4,500 years since Aharietiam to Un-Unmake Chemoarish, and most likely convinced her to sign up because the Nightwatcher loves giving out freaky banes (Check out that guy that walks on his hands because I made him see the world updised down, green misty tendril high five cultivation).

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I was saying. In my post, I said yes they are separate entities, and yes they have separate abilities, but their goals and their concept aligns, so I do not feel it matters who specifically took the action. It doesn't change the effect. Cultivation is gambling on the nightwatcher. Giving her a nudge to learn, and seeing how the nightwatchers actions then effect others, that nudge them to effect others, and so on. Just because it is not actively specifically cultivation taking the action, does not mean she isn't part of the end result. So saying cultivation did it, or nightwatcher did it to me in the end is immaterial. Hopefully that clarified things. 

[Jofwu]

8 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

This seems to me that Cultivation created the Diagram with her futuresight, and built in the capacity for self-correction with T's boon/bane. When the Diagram is humming along as it should be, T has one of his weeping and drooling days, when small course corrections are required he get's a highly intelligent day to make annotations / minor corrections to the course of the Diagram, and when the causal chains of events have spun severely out of line with the overall plan he gets a brilliant day (like the day that he changes his plans about Dalinar).

I hadn't seen this theory before. That's an awesome idea!

It makes me wonder if the day of the Diagram's creation was just "the beginning" or if something drastic happened that day which required Taravangian to make a massive change of course. And if the latter... what happened that day?!

12 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I don't necessarily agree with this. Renarin was spared by Jasnah as an act of compassion and there was an alternative future where Renarin was killed by Jasnah that Odium still sees.

I won't dig into it in detail here as the theory isn't entirely relevant to this topic. (And it is of course just a theory.) My short response is that I don't see why this is any reason to doubt the theory. I'm not saying Renarin is pulling the future in a different way than was predicted. I'm saying there are events around him which were once 99.9% likely to happen a certain way, and now he's unknowingly shifting those odds. (by having the powers he does and being the person he is) I think it's pretty clear that he's the reason Odium is having a hard time predicting events surrounding Dalinar, and I think it's no coincidence that the Diagram is having a difficult time there as well.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am sorry, you misunderstood what I was saying. In my post, I said yes they are separate entities, and yes they have separate abilities, but their goals and their concept aligns, so I do not feel it matters who specifically took the action. It doesn't change the effect. Cultivation is gambling on the nightwatcher. Giving her a nudge to learn, and seeing how the nightwatchers actions then effect others, that nudge them to effect others, and so on. Just because it is not actively specifically cultivation taking the action, does not mean she isn't part of the end result. So saying cultivation did it, or nightwatcher did it to me in the end is immaterial. Hopefully that clarified things.

That makes sense, but this is a question of magnitude. Dalinar's case required direct shardic intervention, this is significant. The nature and complexity of the goal are material, and the Nightwatcher was not up to the task to prune and prepare Dalinar to little a "ascend" to Unity. If the Diagram is her ultimate game plan and secret roadmap to defeating Odium, then likewise I believe that this would also require direct shardic intervention, especially if the surmise that she is using Taravangian to course correct the diagram is correct.

Edited January 9, 2019 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typos typos typos

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

That makes sense, but this is a question of magnitude. Dalinar's case required direct shardic intervention, this is significant. The nature and complexity of the goal are material, and the Nightwatcher was not up to the task to prune and prepare Dalinar to little a "ascend" to Unity. If the Diagram is her ultimate game plane and secret roadmap to defeating Odium, then likewise I believe that this would also require direct shardic intervention, especially if the surmise that she is using Taravangian to course correct the diagram.

I respect your opinion, and personally disagree. In my opinion the complexity was the concept Dalinar was asking for. As Brandon said, the nightwatcher is still learning. That doesn't mean she will never be able to know enough to know how to deal with someone in Dalinar's case, simply she did not understand at that time. I do not feel the pruning was done so he could ascend. I feel the pruning was a nudge for growth in a certain direction. Everything else is on Dalinar. So the clarify further, the pruning did not need shardic power behind it to prune. the nightwatcher could have pruned if the nightwatcher had enough understanding of the concept of forgiveness to come to the same conclusion that cultivation did. Hopefully that was clear. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

@Jofwu, responded to your the Renarin bit on your Renarin thread:

 

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In my opinion the complexity was the concept Dalinar was asking for. As Brandon said, the nightwatcher is still learning. That doesn't mean she will never be able to know enough to know how to deal with someone in Dalinar's case, simply she did not understand at that time. I do not feel the pruning was done so he could ascend. I feel the pruning was a nudge for growth in a certain direction. Everything else is on Dalinar.

Totally see your point, and it is a very valid point clearly expressed, I just personally like to speculate along different lines. I can agree to disagree on this one.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

@Jofwu, responded to your the Renarin bit on your Renarin thread:

 

Totally see your point, and it is a very valid point clearly expressed, I just personally like to speculate along different lines. I can agree to disagree on this one.

No problemo. Nice sharing of thoughts

[Kon-Tiki]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

This one deserves special emphasis because on re-read Taravangian quite explicitly spells out to Dalinar exactly how to capture a spren.  If it were a worse writer I might dismiss this as simple plot contrivance, but since this is Brandon I think we can safely assume events played out this way for a reason.  If anything, having Navani explain the process to Dalinar would have felt much more organic.  Taravangian being the one to do it seems important (and likely a clue).

He brings it up twice over the course of the conversation, and after he does so Odium is forced to make a change to his plan at Theylan Field to steal the gem to avert disaster. This is to me probably the clearest evidence that the original Diagram is working for Dalinar

[Calderis]

OK. One, I don't think Brandon saying "Nightwatcher" in those WoBs mean anything beyond "the old magic" which can be either the Nightwatcher, or Cultivation. 

Two, Lift and T may very well have been able to tell the difference between Cultivation and the Nightwatcher, if both happened to show up. We don't know that that happened. People seek the Old Magic and get stood up. If only Cultivation showed, what reason would they have to question? Furthermore, Lift tells Dalinar that he "smells like her." Dalinar was not changed by the Nightwatcher, but Cultivation. The touch that she can "Smell" on him is Cultivation's. 

And Finally Lifts gift, in my opinion, is a more massive change than Either of the other two. I don't think we've seen half of what she's capable of. Not only does she convert food into stormlight and touch Wyndle physically, which he says should be impossible, but she also enters into the Stormfathers visions without his permission or knowledge. I don't think the shift in Lift is on the same level as either Dalinar or T. I think it's a step above. 

Until we see her flashbacks and her visit to the Valley and it's shown what was done to her was by the Nightwatcher, I do not believe that the spren is capable of the level of change that has been made to Lift. 

Edited January 9, 2019 by Calderis