Dalakaar

Question about the Diagram, Dalinar, and Taravangian.

Do you think the Diagram foresaw Dalinar becoming Odium's Champion?   20 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think the Diagram foresaw Dalinar becoming Odium's Champion?

    • Yes it expected Dalinar to become Odium's Champion.
      10
    • No it knew he'd refuse.
      6
    • Other (Reply)
      4

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

33 posts in this topic

To start, without the intervention of Cultivation, Dalinar would be Odium's Champion. The guy who was holding the remnants of Honor would be Odium's Champion.

Ponder that for a sec... that's not just bad, that's really really really bad. (What would happen to that Honor/Power anyways?:blink:)


So, the question, do you think the Diagram foresaw Dalinar becoming Odium's Champion??

If it assumed Dalinar would become the Champion, how then does that effect your view of Taravangian's moves against Dalinar? For my part it adds a much deeper layer of grey to his "villainy". It's essentially a justifiable reason to act against Dalinar despite his seemingly good nature. A necessary reason even.

On the flip side of that coin, if it did predict Dalinar would be successful then a whole other can of worms gets thrown around. Like possibly giving a bit more credence to the theory of Taravangian joining Team Odium as a ploy...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things the Diagram Has Done to Strengthen Dalinar's Position:

Pushed Kaladin to swear his Third Ideal

Put a very pliant Emperor on the Azish throne (why else kill two Azish Emperors in a row?)

Removed Jah Keved as a rival neighbor (can you imagine how much harder it would have been to build Dalinar's coalition with a belligerent Jah Keved still in the way?)

Created a Skybreaker willing to follow Dalinar instead of the will of Nale (it was only a rock)

Giving Dalinar the idea to capture Nergaoul

Helped persuade the Theylans to join the coalition with the Kharbranthian surgeons, which in turn helped bring in the Azish because Fen was willing to help

I'm sure I could come up with more if I took more time. I'm also going to guess that Dalinar is going to receive a friendly tip about how Odium can't see the future where Renarin is concerned. At pretty much every relevant turn, The Diagram has been beneficial to Dalinar's progression into the leader of the coalition against Odium. So to answer your question, yes I believe that The Diagram foresaw Dalinar's Ascension. That said, I don't think current Mr T or the Diagram's members see anything they're doing in that light. Diagram Mr T, fueled by Cultivation, is playing modern Mr T and friends for a greater purpose than they realize.

 

It's also worth attempting to summon @Calderis since Calderis is a Diagram junkie

8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

If it assumed Dalinar would become the Champion, how then does that effect your view of Taravangian's moves against Dalinar? For my part it adds a much deeper layer of grey to his "villainy". It's essentially a justifiable reason to act against Dalinar despite his seemingly good nature. A necessary reason even.

It's weird, i never thought of Taravangian as a villain, i didn't even suspect people thought of him that way. All throughout the books i saw him as a conflicted character doing what he thought was good for the greater number of people.

He did some pretty bad stuff in the process, but honestly, so has Dalinar, Kaladin, Adolin, etc.

I really like Taravangian.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Per summons, I must now post my awesome Taravangian schpiel. 

On 6/24/2018 at 8:47 AM, Calderis said:

Weeeee, Taravangian thread! My favorite.

First thing first, his boon and curse. There is no storming way that this was the Nightwatcher. She couldn't grasp the concept of forgiveness, or why someone would want it. Capacity? And the craziness of this boon/curse? 

Every example given to us of a Nightwatcher boon/curse are two distinct things. A boon, and numb hands. Cloth, and seeing the world upside down. The very way that people speak of a boon and a curse. But in Dalinar we saw a boon and curse intertwined. I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight. 

So the Diagram... Is not what it seems to be. Taravangian believes that his interpretations have failed, and there are contingencies and branches. That the further he gets from the day it was made the more it diverges from its accuracy. And yet it was able to foresee the circumstances of him being met with by Odium on a low intelligence day? So much so that it includes details about Odium have agreed to a trial of champions and being unable to confront Dalinar directly any longer? 

Quote

“You need me,” Taravangian whispered.
“I need nobody.”
Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?
Thank you.
He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

I don't believe that for a moment. The Diagram has been absolutely accurate up to this point. It's "failures" have steered events precisely. Szeth's slaughter of world leaders created the ground on which the coalition was built. The release of information to undermine the coalition lead directly to Dalinar's desperate situation and rejection of Odium during the battle of Thaylen city which in turn led to the meeting with Odium where he read those words. 

Taravangian on the day of the Diagram laid out this plan to steer his less intelligent self (and even on genius days, he's still far less intelligent) by the nose to follow the true plan he had on that day. That plan did not exist outside of his head. Odium is aware of everything that is in the Diagram, and to have written down the plan would mean to expose it to scrutiny.

The goals of the Diagram are not, and have never been what Taravangian believes. This is not about saving a remnant. This is not capitulation. This is about positioning himself where he can do the most to undermine Odium directly. He is now a "servant" of Odium, ruling one of the most powerful nations on Roshar. Odium believes him to be loyal out of necessity, because Taravangian himself believes that. Which is the entire point. He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

The Diagram foresaw it, planned for it, and facilitated his rejection. 

Edited by Calderis
4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Xavier Iriarte said:

It's weird, i never thought of Taravangian as a villain, i didn't even suspect people thought of him that way. All throughout the books i saw him as a conflicted character doing what he thought was good for the greater number of people.

He did some pretty bad stuff in the process, but honestly, so has Dalinar, Kaladin, Adolin, etc.

I really like Taravangian.

Same, I always thought he was trying the best he could to save the world. He didn't have any ill intentions

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

To start, without the intervention of Cultivation, Dalinar would be Odium's Champion. The guy who was holding the remnants of Honor would be Odium's Champion.

Ponder that for a sec... that's not just bad, that's really really really bad. (What would happen to that Honor/Power anyways?:blink:)


So, the question, do you think the Diagram foresaw Dalinar becoming Odium's Champion??

If it assumed Dalinar would become the Champion, how then does that effect your view of Taravangian's moves against Dalinar? For my part it adds a much deeper layer of grey to his "villainy". It's essentially a justifiable reason to act against Dalinar despite his seemingly good nature. A necessary reason even.

On the flip side of that coin, if it did predict Dalinar would be successful then a whole other can of worms gets thrown around. Like possibly giving a bit more credence to the theory of Taravangian joining Team Odium as a ploy...

Without Cultivation’s influence, would Dalinar really have been in a place to start receiving Tanavast’s visions or bond the Stormfather at all? I’m not so sure. All the same, he would be a terrifying champion. But I agree with what the other’s have said. Whatever current Taravangian thinks the Diagram is, it is so much more. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Philomath said:

Without Cultivation’s influence, would Dalinar really have been in a place to start receiving Tanavast’s visions or bond the Stormfather at all? I’m not so sure. All the same, he would be a terrifying champion. But I agree with what the other’s have said. Whatever current Taravangian thinks the Diagram is, it is so much more. 

If I remember correctly he had the first vision right before going to see the Nightwatcher. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

He is a trusted tool of the enemy. It's in that "capacity" that he'll be able to do what needs to be done. 

Or as @RShara likes to put it. "T is a plant" 

It's like in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy! ●spoilers●

Spoiler

Zaphod doesn't even let himself know what the plan is by tampering with his brain so that he can't be discovered, as he doesn't even know why he is doing what he is doing

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Naurock said:

If I remember correctly he had the first vision right before going to see the Nightwatcher. 

If he did, then there was a huge gap between the first one and the others because he went to the Nightwatcher before going to the Shattered Plains after Gavilar’s death which is 5-6 years before WoK. And in WoK I thought they mentioned he had had 12 or so visions total over the past few months. (This being said, I am doing an SA re-read and am at the beginning of OB so there may be a flashback I don’t remember. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Calderis and Kon-Tiki already summed up my thoughts pretty well, but I definitely think that Cultivation had a hand in Taravangian’s boon/curse. She caused The Diagram to happen, and the Taravangian who wrote it did not write out the actual plan explicitly. He just laid out several false plans that would ultimately cause the real plan to happen. And he kept it secret from the dumber Taravangian’s so that they wouldn’t be able to reveal the real plan to anyone.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Calderis and Kon-Tiki already summed up my thoughts pretty well, but I definitely think that Cultivation had a hand in Taravangian’s boon/curse. She caused The Diagram to happen, and the Taravangian who wrote it did not write out the actual plan explicitly. He just laid out several false plans that would ultimately cause the real plan to happen. And he kept it secret from the dumber Taravangian’s so that they wouldn’t be able to reveal the real plan to anyone.

On that, I read another theory somewhere that suggested that Cultivation (they assumed the same thing) gave Taravangian the possibility to save the world but gave false information to him in order for the real plan to come about. So instead of Taravangian's smart self setting up failures, it was actually Cultivation. That same person argued the reason was because even when he was smart, he would have wrote it down in code which Odium would see but if Taravangian didn't know, then he couldn't write it down and Odium wouldn't know. I wish I remember whose theory this was

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Philomath said:

If he did, then there was a huge gap between the first one and the others because he went to the Nightwatcher before going to the Shattered Plains after Gavilar’s death which is 5-6 years before WoK. And in WoK I thought they mentioned he had had 12 or so visions total over the past few months. (This being said, I am doing an SA re-read and am at the beginning of OB so there may be a flashback I don’t remember. 

It's very possible that the addition of so much of Cultivation's power would have affected his journey to Bondsmith. Also possible is that him removing those memories removed the consequences of him "approaching Radiance" as the Stormfather puts it, making him once again ineligible for Bondsmith visions.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I voted other, because I have an unpopular opinion (which is nothing new).

I think the Diagram is a red herring. We're supposed to think it's super accurate and the key to saving Roshar, but I think it's just wrong. Odium said it was made without access to fortune and the spiritual realm, which means, when all is said and all is done, the Diagram is a guess. I expect that when Taravangian has the most faith in it, and expects the most that it contains the path to victory, it will fail. Basically, I doubt everything about the Diagram because I think it's bunk.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I voted other, because I have an unpopular opinion (which is nothing new).

I think the Diagram is a red herring. We're supposed to think it's super accurate and the key to saving Roshar, but I think it's just wrong. Odium said it was made without access to fortune and the spiritual realm, which means, when all is said and all is done, the Diagram is a guess. I expect that when Taravangian has the most faith in it, and expects the most that it contains the path to victory, it will fail. Basically, I doubt everything about the Diagram because I think it's bunk.

That is pretty much that theory I tried to outline. They believed the Diagram's purpose was to fail. If it really told the truth/ future then Odium would see and counteract it

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

If I remember correctly he had the first vision right before going to see the Nightwatcher. 

You are referring to this scene, right?:

Quote

FIVE AND A HALF YEARS AGO Dalinar came to himself, gasping, in the cabin of a stormwagon. Heart pounding, he spun about, kicking aside empty bottles and lifting his fists. Outside, the riddens of a storm washed the walls with rain. What in the Almighty’s tenth name had that been? One moment, he’d been lying in his bunk. The next, he had been … Well, he didn’t rightly remember. What was the drink doing to him now?

(OB, beginning of chapter 114)

 

Also.. Regarding Mr. T creating the Diagram.. @HSuperLee even though Odium said that the Diagram was created without access to Fortune and the SR, does not mean he is right - at least it is a valid theory according to this WoB:

Quote

defiantburrito

Taravangian: On his "Special Day" where he created the Diagram, was he actually as smart as he thinks he was, or was something else going on? It seems suspicious that any level of raw intelligence would let him deduce all of that...

Brandon Sanderson

That sure IS suspicious, eh? Let's just say that HE believes it was rational deduction. But other theories are valid.

 

Edited by equinox
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think with both Taravangian and Lift we're seeing the same things. Far more complicated, and far more powerful gifts than the Nightwatcher is capable of. Cultivation's work, used with Cultivation's foresight.

Cal, you might have to update your Diagram spiel, I think it's pretty conclusively worded in this Skyward pre-release AMA WoB that what's going on with Lift is due to the Nightwatcher, not direct Cultivation intervention (the wording in this typed AMA response is very specific). Let me know if you think I'm wrong.

Quote

athos45678

Has anyone in the history of Roshar ever had Lift’s special physiology? Or is she like a whole new human

Brandon Sanderson

You could say anyone that has their DNA or spiritweb meddled with by the Nightwatcher is something new--that said, Lift is an experiment that hasn't been tried before.

source

 

4 hours ago, Eris said:

On that, I read another theory somewhere that suggested that Cultivation (they assumed the same thing) gave Taravangian the possibility to save the world but gave false information to him in order for the real plan to come about. So instead of Taravangian's smart self setting up failures, it was actually Cultivation. That same person argued the reason was because even when he was smart, he would have wrote it down in code which Odium would see but if Taravangian didn't know, then he couldn't write it down and Odium wouldn't know. I wish I remember whose theory this was

This post by @teknopathetic is great and is probably the one you're thinking of. There's some good discussion about the Diagram on the rest of that thread too:

 

5 hours ago, Philomath said:

Without Cultivation’s influence, would Dalinar really have been in a place to start receiving Tanavast’s visions or bond the Stormfather at all? I’m not so sure. All the same, he would be a terrifying champion. But I agree with what the other’s have said. Whatever current Taravangian thinks the Diagram is, it is so much more.

and

5 hours ago, Naurock said:

If I remember correctly he had the first vision right before going to see the Nightwatcher. 

So the timing on this is very suspicious, Dalinar did have his first vision right before going to see the Nightwatcher and there's this WoB that Jofwu got from the Skype Q&A last October:

Quote

Jofwu [PENDING REVIEW]

Continuity question:

Just prior to meeting with the Nightwatcher 5.5 years ago, Dalinar wakes up at the end of a highstorm and seems to have experienced a vision from Stormfather. But in The Way of Kings, Dalinar says that the visions only began "a few months ago." He also seems to have specific memory of the "first" even if he can't recall all of the details, and it seems unlikely he would have visions for several years without anyone having noticed.

So, should we assume that (1) this strange "dream" in Oathbringer was not actually a one of Honor's visions? Is that just a weird dream, or perhaps some OTHER vision from Stormfather?

Or, (2) this is one of Honor's visions and any contradictory details from The Way of Kings are superseded by Oathbringer?

Or, (3) this is one of Honor's visions, and Dalinar just doesn't remember his history of the visions very well.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I did this quite intentionally, it's not number two. But I expected these questions to be asked, and it's a RAFO, but it's one of these RAFOs where I wrote it very deliberately the way I did on purpose, and I'm going to leave it to your speculation as to what it means.

source

Brandon's response heavily implies that this gap in the visions should stand out as something significant and states clearly that this was intentionally meant to be this way.

Seems to me that this is part of Cultivation's plan, to forestall Dalinar from seeing the visions until he is ready to progress in his ideals as a Bondsmith. With her personally sending tendrils of power into his mind, seems reasonable to surmise that she would have a fair idea when Dalinar would be in the proper mental state to progress with his ideals. During this in depth plumbing and pruning of his mind and memories, it's also reasonable to assume that she would put in place some means of monitoring Dalinar's mind/mental state going forward, and that she would also be able to control when specific pruned memories would come back.

It's highly suspicious that the memory of Rathalas and Evi's death comes back when Dalinar is in Jah Kaved, and that causes him to utterly break down at a point in time where he has enough time to recover mentally before Odium tries to make Dalinar his Champion. This is some serious foresight, and some good gardening.

It would be interesting to do a reread and focus on what's happening immediately before he gets each specific memory back and look for a possible deeper seated motivation for why a specific memory was returned at that specific time.

 

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats him! One of the forums that inspired me joining this page

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I absolutely think Taravangian (and the Diagram) may be a tool of Cultivation, but I disagree with @Calderis on the accuracy of the Diagram.

I believe the WoB pasted by @hoiditthroughthegrapevine above and Taranvangian's own understanding of his encounter with the Nightwatcher suggests that it was indeed the Nightwatcher who was involved. That is, Lift definitely seems to be a product of the Nightwatcher, and I think Taravangian would be able to tell the difference between Nightwatcher and Cultivation. (Dalinar was)

Not entirely sure this is relevant... But I suppose it supports the fact that the Diagram isn't some masterpiece of Cultivation. Maybe it's some measure of basic futuresight that he's been granted on occasion. Personally, I imagine it's exactly what he thinks it is--an insane level of analytical brilliance. Either way, it's prone to error.

And I think Renarin is a primary source for that error, particularly where Dalinar is concerned:

I think Renarin's ability to see the future is causing disturbances that the Diagram couldn't possibly predict.

Taravangian certainly thinks the Diagram is a "perfect" thing, which must be followed religiously. I think he's a fool, likely being manipulated by Odium and/or Cultivation to some end.

The biggest challenge to the idea that the Diagram didn't predict this outcome is the text Taravangian reads at the end:

Quote

“You need me,” Taravangian whispered.

“I need nobody.”

Taravangian looked up and there, glowing in front of him, was a set of words. A message from himself, in the past. Incredible! Had he somehow seen even this?

Thank you.

He read them out loud. “You have agreed to a battle of champions. You must withdraw to prevent this contest from occurring, and so must not meet with Dalinar Kholin again. Otherwise, he can force you to fight. This means you must let your agents do your work. You need me.”

Odium stepped up, noting the words that Taravangian had read. Then he frowned at the tears on Taravangian’s cheeks.

My first thought is that I'll be very surprised if he isn't being directly manipulated by Odium here. He didn't come to the meeting with this piece of the Diagram figured out, so far as I can tell. So he starts making up some reason why Odium needs him, and suddenly he finds himself in front of some bit of some text that lays out an argument to use? Odium caused these glowing words to appear in the first place, extrapolating beyond the Diagram.

I think it's a complete fabrication by Odium. If not that, it's part of what Odium sees (at this point, after the failure with Dalinar) and he's letting Taravangian have a glimpse. Either way, the point is to make Taravangian think this is all his idea. It's working pretty well. There's no way in Braize Taravangian (on a stupid day, no less) had a meeting with Odium and came out with a good bargain. He's being played.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I don’t think that the WoB you quoted disproves the theory that Lift went to the Nightwatcher and instead got changed by Cultivation. Before we got to OB, Brandon always talked as if Dalinar did in fact get affected by the Nightwatcher, so there’s precedence for Brandon hiding the truth from us until it’s revealed. 

@Jofwu Dalinar always thought that he had actually been affected by the Nightwatcher, but that memory was taken from his brain after he left. I have no doubt that Cultivation would do the same thing to Taravangian and Lift if she intervened in their boons and curses.

The specificness and weirdness of Lift and Taravangian’s stuff just screams Cultivation to me. I’d be very disappointed if they were just normal Nightwatcher stuff.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

The specificness and weirdness of Lift and Taravangian’s stuff just screams Cultivation to me. I’d be very disappointed if they were just normal Nightwatcher stuff.

See I think we've just been mislead by poor accounts of meeting with the Nightwatcher. I think these are well within what Nightwatcher is capable of doing, and would be a little disappointed if Nightwatcher is nothing more than a trickster who gets called to heel when Cultivation wants to do something actually cool. The only examples we have (if I'm not mistaken) come from the Baxil interlude and are completely word of mouth. That isn't to say Nightwatchers work is never silly. I'd just be disappointed if it's just a genie with a weird sense of humor.

10 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Dalinar always thought that he had actually been affected by the Nightwatcher, but that memory was taken from his brain after he left. I have no doubt that Cultivation would do the same thing to Taravangian and Lift if she intervened in their boons and curses.

Yes, but the only reason it worked out this way for him was because she specifically removed a bunch of his memories. Lift seems to have a very clear memory of her visit, and I don't see any reason why Taravangian wouldn't. None of them mention anything weird about their encounters. They went, they asked for a thing, they got a boon and a curse. Lift's is a little vague in this respect, but I'd chalk that up to the fact that (1) it's meant to be more complex than a young girl can make sense of and (2) the explanation for why she got what she did is going to be a bit of a twist in a later book.

As for the WoB, Brandon has never been intentionally misleading with Dalinar as far as I can see. When people asked about his involvement with the Nightwatcher or his boon/curse, Brandon would RAFO it or answer around it. (and say that the answer is coming in Oathbringer) In this question, the person didn't even bring up the fact that her condition is related to the Nightwatcher. Brandon is the one brought her involvement into the mix, and if it was Cultivation's tampering then he's just being misleading I think. (intentionally or otherwise)

All of that together makes me skeptical that we'll get a "Surprise! It was actually Cultivation!" for ALL of these cases which are interesting. It will be overdone if it happens a second time, and just plain irritating if it happens a third.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The Stormfather is a similar entity to the Nightwatcher and he can't turn you into a superman who can outmatch Odium either (not without help from a Shard anyway). The Diagram is an obvious Cultivation thing IMO. Lift is grey area, personally leaning towards just normal Nightwatcher stuff. Still, the Nightwatcher is technically mini-Cultivation. Whatever she does is an extension of Cultivation's plans.

Edited by Vissy
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 The Shard that just wants to survive planted an idea in Ati's mind to manipulate Leras into coming up with his plan so that Harmony would offer to help Hoid if he could, which would scare Odium, who would also be responding (unwittingly) to the plan that Autonomy set in motion to get Ambition killed, which also led to the deaths of Aona and Skai, who secretly implanted Hoid with an incomplete Elantrian trigger so that he could use Sandweaving to trick Endowment into thinking that he was from Taldain so that Khriss would end up on Nalthis and put something extra in Nightblood, all for the sake of getting Szeth to pick up Nightblood and put something extra in Azure (if you know what I mean :wacko:) so that Azure's child can trick Zahel into marrying the Nightwatcher, which is going to trigger Cultivation's plan to trick Taravangian intro tricking Dalinar into tricking Odium into tricking the Shard that just wants to survive into Investing in a world. Then PRESTO Adonalsium reforms and says, "This was My secret plan all along!" before the God Beyond appears and turns everyone into sticks.

EDIT: Kelsier is involved here, too, he's tricking Mraize into travelling through time to make it possible for Khriss to assist the Five Scholars despite being their successor.

Edited by Ripheus23
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I think the problem is saying "it is cultivation, no it is the night watcher, no it is cultivation" is mincing words. WoB below

Questioner

When Lift says to Dalinar that he smells like her, does she mean Cultivation or Nightwatcher?

Brandon

[She] meant Nightwatcher, but Nightwatcher is kind of Cultivation, so, yeah. 

 

Yes they are separate entities, yes they have different capabilities, but their goals align and even actions Cultivation would disagree with, she supports. As per this WoB

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So, in Oathbringer, when Dalinar goes to the Nightwatcher, we see Cultivation intervene directly. How closely does she supervise other Nightwatcher <visits>? Could the Nightwatcher give a boon that Cultivation wouldn't want her to?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Well... yes. "Wouldn't want her to" is a strong phrase. Like, Cultivation is always aware of what's going on. Cultivation rarely intervenes, even if she thinks it would be a bad boon, because she wants the Nightwatcher to learn. And she also is very interested in seeing what happens. So, rarely intervenes, but is aware.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Would she intervene if she thought the boon would help Odium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Not necessarily.

 

My take is Cultivation's shard should be called the Gambler. I feel she has her fingers in multiple pies, rolling the dice. Whether directly or through the Nightwatcher I feel her touch is felt with Dalinar, Taravangian, Renarin and (crack pot theory) Adolin. It is my opinion that had Cultivation not interfered with Dalinar, he could have still become the man he did "today", just there is a whole lotta stuff trying to urge him towards Odium. That Cultivations gamble would not have paid off if the Dalinar we know and love wasn't there all along. By Cultivation's own words, she could be making a weapon for Odium. Dalinar could have just as easily become Odium's champion with or without Cultivation's meddling. Odium commented himself that he knew Cultivation meddled and even know what she did. He said to the effect of "I see what she did. I would have done it differently, but ah well, no matter". With Taravangian she put the Diagram into play as another means to get everyone where they need to be. I am of the belief of the prevailing theory that Taravangian is a Plant. She is taking a gamble that Taravangian will react to the Diagram in such a way that will set off the chain of events that we see. I am of the opinion that Cultivation allowed Glys to be heightened, as yet another gamble. Throwing in yet another new unknown to shake up Odium's plans, and causing further ripples. Finally, I have a crack pot theory with next to no concrete evidence to back it up, so take it with a grain of salt, that Cultivation took a gamble on the chance that Adolin would awaken his blade, so convinced the circle to hold spren back from bonding him to give him a chance to awaken Maya. Once the function of restoring spren is figured out, then not only would the dead shardblades could be potentially turned into new radiants through bonding existing people, but also it would do a lot towards goodwill with the older spren that hate humans for killing their friends (chiefly among the releasers). 

So I say all this to say, in my opinion, she has her sticky fingers in a whole lot of things, giving it all a slight nudge gambling on the chance that these people and situations will grow in the direction she wants. They may all seem to be at cross purposes as first, but she is counting on the actions the characters will take in response to the nudge, leading to growth in directions that people in the immediate moment cannot possibly predict. Odium has not seen this, or countered this, because he assumes Cultivation has given up, and these possibilities by themselves are very far fetched, but all added together over time lead to a big punch (like Dalinar refusing being the Champion)

Edited by Pathfinder
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

First off, I agree with @Calderis and @teknopathetic that the diagram is a master work of Cultivation, and that it required the intervention of Cultivation to pull it off. His variable intelligence is probably not random at all, but is rather the key to how the Diagram functions. As the architect, primary interpreter and only one allowed to modify the diagram, Taravangian is the Living Key to the complex cipher that is the diagram. This seems to me that Cultivation created the Diagram with her futuresight, and built in the capacity for self-correction with T's boon/bane. When the Diagram is humming along as it should be, T has one of his weeping and drooling days, when small course corrections are required he get's a highly intelligent day to make annotations / minor corrections to the course of the Diagram, and when the causal chains of events have spun severely out of line with the overall plan he gets a brilliant day (like the day that he changes his plans about Dalinar).

2 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I think Renarin's ability to see the future is causing disturbances that the Diagram couldn't possibly predict.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Renarin was spared by Jasnah as an act of compassion and there was an alternative future where Renarin was killed by Jasnah that Odium still sees. T met with Odium during one of his compassionate dumb days, and was thinking about his grandkids when he struck the new deal with Odium. It seems highly significant to me that T knows about the one person who exists outside of Odium's futuresight (who is still alive because of a compassionate act), sounds like a hidden dagger to me. I've speculated before that maybe Odium is blinded by Compassion, and maybe that's the secret to why T, on his dumb days is extra opaque to Odium.

2 hours ago, Jofwu said:

My first thought is that I'll be very surprised if he isn't being directly manipulated by Odium here. He didn't come to the meeting with this piece of the Diagram figured out, so far as I can tell. So he starts making up some reason why Odium needs him, and suddenly he finds himself in front of some bit of some text that lays out an argument to use? Odium caused these glowing words to appear in the first place, extrapolating beyond the Diagram.

I don't think this is true, and the proof for this being not the case is that the version of the Diagram that Odium brought up contained part of the Diagram that Odium himself couldn't see. I think it's more the case that Odium drew forth the whole diagram in toto, and then possibly attempted to muddy the waters by the future additions (which Taravangian would have obsessed over if he had been having a more brilliant day).

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the problem is saying "it is cultivation, no it is the night watcher, no it is cultivation" is mincing words. WoB below

I actually don't agree with this at all, the second WoB you quote shows that they are distinct and disparate entities, this line in particular (emphasis added):

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Well... yes. "Wouldn't want her to" is a strong phrase. Like, Cultivation is always aware of what's going on. Cultivation rarely intervenes, even if she thinks it would be a bad boon, because she wants the Nightwatcher to learn. And she also is very interested in seeing what happens. So, rarely intervenes, but is aware.

If they are virtually the same thing, then what lesson is the Nightwatcher learning by bestowing boons/banes?

This is inline with a speculative theory of mine, the foundation is solid but the superstructure is a little shaky. My theory is that the Nightwatcher is a "Remade", that she is actually Chemoarish, and Cultivation is rehabilitating her after her Unmaking from Odium. The descriptions of the Nightwatcher from OB are super creepy, and the fact that Cultivation is supervising the Nightwatcher while she dispense boons/banes is odd unless there is a reason that the Nightwatcher might need to supervise the NW. I know the full text of the above WoB says that Cultivation doesn't intervene to change the NW's boons, but this could be because at this point the Nightwatcher is rehabilitated enough that she only needs supervision and not intervention.  And there's this WoB that says that the green mist that is suffusing the Nightwatcher is actually Cultivation investiture:

Quote

MiToRo94 [PENDING REVIEW]

When Dalinar first goes to meet the Nightwatcher and he sees Cultivation as well, presumably.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

He does.

MiToRo94 [PENDING REVIEW]

They are surrounded by a green mist. So is that mist comparable to Preservation's mist on Scadrial? Would that be like "Cultivationlight?"

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, that is in the same sort of vein. 

Footnote: Related to the original question about Culitvationlight by MiToRo94
source

The fact that Cultivation is described as a warm soft brownish color (and not green and misty) implies to me that the Nightwatcher is suffused with and not necessarily composed of Cultivation investiture.

The connection to Chemoarish is more tentative, here's the only information we get about which is from Hessi's Mythica:

Quote

Chemoarish, the Dustmother, has some of the most varied lore surrounding her. The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truth extremely difficult. I do believe she is not the Nightwatcher, contrary to what stories claim.

—Hessi's Mythica, page 231[10]

And like the follwing WoB, it's always struck me as peculiar that there are 3 Invested shards and 3 Bondsmiths on Roshar:

Quote

Questioner

When it comes to the epic-level spren on Roshar, like the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather-- Is the number of epic-level spren equal to the number of Bondsmiths that you can have on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm, is the number of epic-level spren related to the number of Bondsmiths you have? Well, I've said there's a maximum of three. And there are three Shards involved in Roshar. I'm not gonna tell you if that's a coincidence or not. Sorry.

source

The parity between God level spren and shards seems significant, and I think that it worked out like this (total speculation here, but almost to the level of reasoned conjecture). We know from WoBs that were existent spren on Roshar before the 3 were Invested in Roshar and that the magical ecology of Roshar predates the arrival of the Shards. So I think that there were already god level spren on Roshar pre-splintering and that they were responsible for maintaing the Ecology of Roshar:

  • The Stormfather for distributing Investiture to accomplish singer transformations and to distribute Crem.
  • The Sibling (most likely LifeBrother) who was responsible for infusing the Crem with additional investiture to make plants grow on the Rocky soil of Roshar.
  • The Nightwatcher, responsible for the Old magic that flows out to creatures on Roshar (magical purelake fish, Floating Island great shells, Chasmfiends, etc).

When Investing on Roshar, the 3 shards got one of each of these ecological god level spren, and the Bondsmiths were able to bond these god level spren. Honor got the Storms to distribute Stormlight, Cultivation got LifeBrother (aka the Sibling, who I also think is a collection of StormStriders that move with the Highstorm) to infuse crem with investiture to aid life on roshar (I think it's a magical side effect that plant's can move on roshar) and Odium got the Nightwatcher (and then Unmade the Nightwatcher to turn her into Chemoarish).

One of the problems with the 3 Bondsmiths bond the 3 god spren theory is the obvious question of why would Odium's god spren bond a KR? I think the answer to this is that the KR bondsmith responsible for bonding the Odium controlled god spren bonded the spren forcibly and was necessary to contain Chemoarish. The Dustmother (there is definitely a naming parallel with Stormfather there) is a pretty frightening name and she was probably a pretty horrible force when loose on Roshar.

How did Cultivation rehabilitate the Dustmother and turn her into the Nightwatcher? Well, she has had the 4,500 years since Aharietiam to Un-Unmake Chemoarish, and most likely convinced her to sign up because the Nightwatcher loves giving out freaky banes (Check out that guy that walks on his hands because I made him see the world updised down, green misty tendril high five cultivation).

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
typos, always typos
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Kon-Tiki said:

Giving Dalinar the idea to capture Nergaoul

This one deserves special emphasis because on re-read Taravangian quite explicitly spells out to Dalinar exactly how to capture a spren.  If it were a worse writer I might dismiss this as simple plot contrivance, but since this is Brandon I think we can safely assume events played out this way for a reason.  If anything, having Navani explain the process to Dalinar would have felt much more organic.  Taravangian being the one to do it seems important (and likely a clue).

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.